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sinagua
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15 Apr 2008, 3:49 pm

Our son may eat as much "Real Food" (not snacks) as he wants at mealtimes. But he just eats what little he has to to get to the treat at the end. ;) :evil:

But I don't want to feel like I'm forcing him to eat more than he says he wants. I'd rather he eat several smaller meals than two or three huge ones. But I just don't want him thinking he's entitled to a "treat" six or eight times a day. :x



Jennyfoo
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15 Apr 2008, 4:51 pm

I do allow her to help herself to about whatever she wants after school and until 4:30. After the smaller kids go to bed, she's allowed another small snack if she wants it- often a treat. We're not strict with food except for the only eating at the kitchen table part(too many spills and messes meant we had to crack down).

We're not planning on coming down hard on her. We'll treat this in the usual way we handle issues I guess- a nice talk where she gets to identify what rules she broke, how what she did was not nice(to her siblings or me), and she will get to come up with her own solution(with our input) on how to resolve the situation an make amends. We pick our battles carefully and this is not a huge issues, but she needs to learn that this is not acceptable behavior.



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15 Apr 2008, 5:06 pm

Jennyfoo wrote:
It's not normal behaviour. She's not an addict.
and yet what I was responding to was your first post in which
Jennyfoo wrote:
She has been told many times before not to sneak and steal food.
and in the same post
Jennyfoo wrote:
My nearly 10 y/o keeps stealing food, hiding it, then lying about it. She's VERY duplicitous in how she does it too, but is such a bad liar that we see through it and know it was her- we just have to find the proof before we confront her with it. I'll give an example of the latest problem:

I would not have reacted the way I did if it had been presented as a one off, a first time, or the third or fourth time in a particular set of circumstances, but your opening post used the words " many times", "keeps stealing food", and "the latest problem", all of which I think I would be correct in seeing as descriptions of repeated sustained behaviour. :?:

Jennyfoo wrote:
... the only sugar was the little bit in the yoghurt... No chemicals!

When I said chemicals I mean the food opioids in dairy and wheat, and when I say powerfully addictive I mean sugar.

How many people have actually tried cutting out sugar completely? Many posters on the thread have very honestly described how difficult they find it to control their sugar habit/consumption. And as some people following gluten and casein free diets know, it can be very difficult to give up food opioids. There is a real longing for the substances. ( Wallace and Gromit " cheese and crackers" etc).

Food opioids have been shown to inhibit production of appetite suppressors ( which are normally produced when full) . In people who are sensitive to them they literally encourage desire to eat more of them. Many people experience cravings and desire for pizzas, cheeseburgers, and toasteds, which are perfect vehicules for both food opioids.

Sugar can be almost impossible for some people to kick. It is a highly refined acid, made like heroin/morphine from taking the juice of a plant and boiling and crystallising it, etc. In the middle ages, before most people became habituated to it, it was used by arab doctors in surgical operations as an anaesthetic, a few grains was usually enough.

Some people are very sensitive to it still. And the fact that you, her parents, are both diabetic suggests to me that she may be someone on whom a few grains might have quite an effect. The combination of the casein food opioid, ( in milk) ,if she were intolerant of/sensitive to that, with a mixture of fruit sugars and refined sugar even in small quantity, could be irresistible.

I do not think that my reaction is excessive, but I acknowledge that it was perhaps not very diplomatic. The story reminded me so vividly of my own uncomprehending, robotic/almost hypnotised need to get those biscuits despite knowing that i was not supposed to, and the suffering that those overlooked/ignored/misunderstood addictions went on to cause me, that it made me react very fast and passionately.

I sincerely believe that food addiction is an important part of western society's drivenness and dysfunction in many ways, and that it is not taken nearly seriously enough. ( unless its effects are being cynically counted on by the big capitalists because of the effect they have on sales, which is not entirely impossible).

:?



Last edited by ouinon on 16 Apr 2008, 6:32 am, edited 3 times in total.

ouinon
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15 Apr 2008, 5:21 pm

sinagua wrote:
My son does this too, to an extent. If I have any of his favorite snacks in the house, he will devour the whole thing in a day or two ...the concept that "If you eat one or two per day, you can have them every day, but if you eat them ALL today, I won't buy them again for several months, if ever" doesn't seem to sink in. Maybe he has issues with future tense thinking? :(
How many alcoholics do you know who can have just one drink? :?:

:?



ouinon
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15 Apr 2008, 5:29 pm

KimJ wrote:
lol, I was going to go after ouinon, but you beat me to it. ;) Ouinon, quoting yourself and getting more upset at Jennyfoo (who is asking for help!) doesn't help.

I admit poor diplomacy, but not being unhelpful. I find that information, new data, is useful for altering my attitudes and behaviour, ( although it can sometimes take a bit of time :wink: ) , and I thought that my experience, and wide/intense reading in area of food allergy and addiction, might help to cast fresh light on the problem, so that neither Jennyfoo nor her daughter would have to think so badly of her, Allaura ( wow, just noticed, she has the name out of Willow, is that right? Beautiful name) :) . That it might explain what is going on, and point the way to a solution, which might have to be what alcoholics do which is never have any again.
Quote:
My son thinks eating a meal is a chore to get dessert.
So did I. I earned my sugary prize by eating food I didn't want, often didn't need. I learned to eat to earn. I learned that eating even when not hungry got me what I wanted, sugar, which until age about 10-12 I did not have free access to.

8)



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16 Apr 2008, 1:43 am

Just out of interest - sugar is STILL used as an analgetic on new born babies (before they are "spoiled"by diet? :) ) Sugar water is given before PKU blood test is taken from the babies heal, and it is proven not just to distract them, but actually to lower pain.

BTW we eat healthy food, but we don't follow any particular diet.

Jennyfoo, I may have misunderstood - your rules don't sound so far from mine - I got sick of spills, too. I thought you were being strict about what food she could eat ect. and I may have got it wrong!



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16 Apr 2008, 2:27 am

katrine wrote:
Just out of interest - sugar is STILL used as an analgesic on new born babies: sugar water is given before PKU blood test is taken from the babies heel, and it is proven not just to distract them, but actually to lower pain.
I didn't know that. My son was born at home and probably wasn't exposed to sugar until he was 4-5 months old in fruit compotes/purees.
Another reason to be glad he wasn't born in a hospital. Thank you for the info.

...it is used on babies to lower pain, as morphine is on bigger people and it doesn't occur to them that they might be provoking lifelong addiction to it in sensitive/(all) babies. 8O :? :(

8)



ouinon
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16 Apr 2008, 3:54 am

Addiction to sugar, and wheat and dairy, needn't result in visible health problems, like overweight, or grotty skin . I didn't get fat and my skin was beautiful. But I did get distanced, out of it, uncaring, irresponsible, more and more into virtual reality of escapist books and daydreams, less and less caring about other people's feelings because none of it seemed very real.

The fact that Allaura could "help you look" for the popsicles is the most worrying part. I recognise that response, of being very helpful, ( as far as is possible to be seeing that have eaten them, and are way too "pain-avoidant" to admit that and get all the emotional stuff pouring at you from your parents), as if don't see any connection, not one that matters anyway, between the acts, between parent's anxiety and frustration, and what have done.

I know that behaviour, doing what it takes it avoid "pain"/difficulty, for as long as possible, and the absence of understanding/caring that mother's "pain" is because of what have done.

Stamping out the lying and stealing does not stop the addiction, just drives it underground, and her behaviour risks becoming more alienated ( from you, from anyone/anything that seems to restrict her access to highs), as she eats more and more dairy and sugar at school, and elsewhere. These are the first signs, they already indicate that she is hooked. ( you mention "candy wrappers and crumbs" in her bed too).

Please don't ignore them. It's not just how she gets the stuff, lying etc which is already an effect, it's the effect on her mental health generally that matters.

:!: :arrow: Try completely cutting out dairy for a week or two. See what effect that has on her behaviour.Could you monitor her diet enough to do that? Choose a school holiday period/half term. Just try it.

8)



Last edited by ouinon on 16 Apr 2008, 6:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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16 Apr 2008, 6:53 am

Jennyfoo wrote:
...this is an ongoing problem.
and
Quote:
her brother's been known to sneak food too.


The word "naughty " is useless; it explains nothing, and "stealing" is a terrible word to use for your own daughter's taking and eating food in her own house.

Why do people lie? Why do people steal? Rather than using the deformed standards so often applied to childrens behaviour, think why you might steal or lie? What would it take? Rather than thinking of your daughter as "someone who lies and steals" think "what must she be going through to do this?" Why would she behave so uncaringly, so deceitfully , so persistently against the rules?

Imagine how driven she must be, and how out of touch with real connections to do this . She isn't doing this for fun. I just noticed that Sinagua refers to her son stealing food too in a post. I know that my parents didn't understand. They thought it was me being naughty, being greedy, being deceitful; it doesn't seem to have crossed their minds that I needed help.

They preferred to believe that I was some kind of untrustworthy mini-delinquent in a way, rather than that there might be significant mitigating, in fact exculpating factors.

:(

Please don't ignore my posts; think about this. There is a huge problem of childhood addiction, which leads to increasingly alienated, distanced, uncaring adult behaviour.

:!:



Last edited by ouinon on 16 Apr 2008, 1:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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16 Apr 2008, 7:00 am

When I was younger I had (and still have :b) an addiction to milk :b. I don't really see it as that unhealthy seeing as I drink skim milk, and it's good for my bones and all that :b.

Perhaps you could just cut all the things she steals from your house? Or perhaps put a lock on the fridge/freezer/cabinets? That way she would have no way to steal sweets and all that :b.



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16 Apr 2008, 6:35 pm

If both your children are "sneaking" food on a regular basis, then there is a good chance they aren't being given the option to eat as much food as their growing bodies need.



ouinon
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16 Apr 2008, 6:40 pm

Triangular_Trees wrote:
If both your children are "sneaking" food on a regular basis, then there is a good chance they aren't being given the option to eat as much food as their growing bodies need.

When I was sneaking food it had nothing to do with hunger. :roll:

I don't believe that it ( hunger) has anything whatsoever to do with these children's secret scoffing/deceitful/"thieving" consumption either.

:(



Last edited by ouinon on 17 Apr 2008, 2:54 am, edited 2 times in total.

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16 Apr 2008, 6:43 pm

ouinon wrote:
Triangular_Trees wrote:
If both your children are "sneaking" food on a regular basis, then there is a good chance they aren't being given the option to eat as much food as their growing bodies need.

When I was sneaking food it had nothing to do with hunger. :roll: I don't believe that it has anything to do with these children's secret scoffing/"stealing"/deceitful consumption either.

:(


Yes but you're one person. This is happening with all the children in her household which indicates its more of a hunger issue than feelings of insecurite, need to control, unable to resist tempatation or anything else. Kids who are forced to be hungry, or otherwise denied necessities, often do take food and hide it in their rooms



Jennyfoo
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16 Apr 2008, 7:33 pm

It's not happening with any of my other children. My kids get plenty of food and healthy snacks. My 5 y/o with MR and autistic traits used to sneak candy and hide the wrappers in his bed. Putting everything up high has solved that. We haven't had an issues with him doing that in a long time- near a year.

As for Allaura, this has been an ongoing issue, but it's hit and miss, never consistent, and not regular. We're tlaking 6 months between incidents or more. IT'S NOT AN ISSUE OF FOOD ADDICTION OR CHEMICAL DEPENDENCY! Just because some people have problems with food addiction and compulsion does not mean every person who sneaks treats has the same problem.

She likes smoothies, so she decided to sneak the rest of the smoothie stuff from the popsicle trays and hid the evidence. She likes sweet tarts which we got for Easter, so she snuck some and hid them in her bed. As I said before, she has diabetes on both sides of the family and we don't allow a lot of sweets. All kids like sweets.

I finally got a confession out of her. It turns out that she enlisted her little sister for help (she's on crutches with a busted foot right now) and they shared the smoothie pops. I am not mad about the food issue, I am disappointed about the lying and sneaking part of it. If she had wanted more smoothie, all she had to do was ask. I'd not have made popsicles and given her the rest. She knows this now. We had a good discussion last night.



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30 Apr 2008, 3:46 pm

Jennyfoo wrote:
She IS being naughty because she knows the rules of our home which include a very strict: eating is only allowed at the kitchen table. She has been told many times before not to sneak and steal food, but to ask. She usually gets what she asks for.

I still sneak food at times, because I hate asking for it.I don't like people knowing it has been eaten (I'm 15, by the way-is it ok for me to post in here?)
Slightly off- topic but my mum and nan both think I'm a liar, though at school I'm called too honest.At home I sometimes end up lying because I get confused by the question.For example, I am very bad at remembering to shut doors.Often my nan will ask me if I've shut the door.I think she means the back door, so I say yes.She actually meant the bathroom door, which wasn't shut. so she says I am lying and shouts.Maybe you phrase questions misleadingly by accident?