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kevv729
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29 Oct 2005, 7:16 pm

Namiko

I been trying to avoid this but it can not be done it is about John 1:1. I have six Interlinear Translations of of New Testament or if You want to call the Greek Scriptures. They have the Greek with English Translated below the Greek. The New Testament was written in koine (common) Greek that was everyday Greek that was spoken. I studied some Greek over the years, I even had various books on the Greek language, though I have lost few of these books sorry to say over the years.

If You look into a Interlinear You will see God in Greek spelled a little differently. This tell me that one God is not equal to the other. Here is what one Interlinear Translation says of John 1:1 I well use the English translated below the Greek. I will give You two examples

John 1:1 "In a beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God, and a god was the Word."

The second example

John 1:1: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word, was toward the the God and god was the Word."

The god or a god is smaller than the other God. These translations use such words as "a god" "divine" or "godlike" because the Greek word the-os is a singular predicate noun occurring before the verb and is not preceded by the definite article. So it is how You want to Look at it and see it.

Jesus was "divine" or "godlike" but was not God himself, Jesus has qualities Like his Father and his God, but does not make him God. That is what John 1:14 is also showing.

The other part of John 1:14 says: "and we beheld his glory, the glory as the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth."



cooldude76230
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29 Oct 2005, 9:57 pm

I have trouble seeing why you dont see Jesus as God if they both possess the same divine qualities. Only God can forgive sins. If Jesus was not God, his sacrifice was pointless since no one could be forgiven by him.

Colossians 1:14-15 states,

1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature

It says that Jesus was the image of the invisible God. That means they have to be equal if Jesus was the image of the Father.

Jesus did say that the Father was greater than he. But this can be applied to us as well. No life was created with more or less value than another. The President of the U.S. has a greater rank than any other American, but he is only human. And as a human he is no more valuable than anyone else. Jesus said this because he was in the form of a human and therefore looked at the Father the same way as any other person.

Whatever the case, well understand it when we get to heaven.




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irishmic
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29 Oct 2005, 10:56 pm

Whatever you want to believe Kevv
Funny thing is though, after 1700 years, and some quite radical attempts to wipe it out, the conspiricy that the early church fathers tried to eradicate in the first ecumenical council keeps rearing it's ugly head.



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30 Oct 2005, 12:31 am

the concept of a trinity was around squillions of years before "monotheism" (which is a bit of a misnomer, cos the only christian denomination which doesn't subscribe to a tripartite version of god is the jehovah's witnesses, as far as i'm aware). the triple goddess, in her aspects of maiden, mother and crone goes way, way back.



kevv729
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30 Oct 2005, 1:39 am

cooldude76230

It may be that we as HUMANS need to make Jesus, God. It maybe that we need to truly need to believe that Jesus is God for ourselves in this way. As You quoted Colossians 1:14-15 maybe need to take it literally, yes as he is the like image of the invisible God, for he is the firstborn of every creature.

Jesus is our Mediator, for us He mediates between God again for us. That is how God does forgive us for our sins. You just need to read 1st Timothy 2:5 "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;" that one God is the Almighty God the Father, Jesus as mediator for mankind, for even Jesus was a man also.

For You even state that: "Jesus did say that the Father was greater than he. You right that is true and should be taken very literally as well as I see it. Jesus did not make himself equal to God the Father. But God the Father did exalt Jesus but only after being found in a fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. as it is written Philippians 2:8. If Jesus was God why in the end would he need to be OBEDIENT unto DEATH because he was not God but the Son of God, the firstborn of every creature, but is not God the Father.

Philippians 2:11 states: And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

It is God the Father that the Glory goes to in the end, not Jesus the Son of God, but again I state to God the Father.


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kevv729
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30 Oct 2005, 3:17 am

vetivert

Jehovah's Witnesses are major Christian Group that does not believe in the Trinity, though there are some very small groups that don't either beleive in the Trinity too.

Historic note even the Puritans did not believe in a Trinity either.


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cooldude76230
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30 Oct 2005, 10:17 am

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

John 20:27-29

27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.


Hebrews 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of thy kingdom.



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30 Oct 2005, 1:49 pm

All these quotes are fine but meaningless to the debate about the trinity.

I still challenge anyone come up with a quote of Jesus claiming to be the exclusive son of god

There isn't one.

The christian religion was formed 200 - 300 years after christ (and a lot of trouble it has caused since along with nearly every other religion)

Come on people ~ we are supposed to be logical thinkers.

Where's the facts?



kevv729
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30 Oct 2005, 8:01 pm

cooldude76230

In the Young's Literal Translation of the Bible it states it this way for:

Isaiah 9:6&7; For a Child hath been born to us, A Son hath been given to us, And the princely power is on his shoulder, And He doth call his name Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace....To the increase of princely power, And of peace, there is no end, On the throne of David, and on his kingdom, To establish it, and to support it, In judgment and in righteousness, Henceforth, even unto the age, The zeal of Jehovah of Hostsdoth this.

Now back to KJV

Isaiah 11:2; states: And the spirit of the LORD (Jehovah) shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;(Jehovah) I have inserted the Divine Name of God

If You a little lower in John 20 it says this to:

John 20:31: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

if You read a little lower in Hebrews 1 it states:

Hebrews 1:9& 13; Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.....But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

This show me Jesus rule is only Princely, it comes from God Almighty Himself(Jehovah God) He allows Jesus to rule for Us, to be our Mediator for all of mankind. Even Jesus returns his Princely Power, to His God our God His Father and our Father, in 1st Corinthians.

1st Corinthians 15:28 states: And when all things shall be subdued unto him then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.


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irishmic
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31 Oct 2005, 2:09 am

Yea, I get where they're there Kevv
But who put them there, and do I have to buy the argument?
Two questions I'm left pondering.



kevv729
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31 Oct 2005, 10:57 pm

irishmic

I have some questions.

You see the Trinity as a metaphor: man at one end and God at the other end. The Trinity itself isn't not just about God the Father, Jesus the Son of God, and Holy Ghost or Spirit, only. I know You see God as unknowable and unapprochable, but is He if You read the Bible God is not trying to be unknowable or even unapprochable.

How are You using Shekianah. I trying to understand how You are trying to use it.

The First Ecumenical Council: wasn't this council the first steps of setting up the Trinity.

What two questions are You pondering.


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irishmic
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02 Nov 2005, 9:26 am

Lady Elizabeth with Link to Follow wrote:
Among the Hebrews one of the traditional names of God is the Shekinah, and, interestingly, it is a feminine gender noun. Many Hebrews saw her as the mother or feminine aspect of God. The early scribes (later called rabbis) added Shekinah in biblical verses where the verb shakhan is used in relation to God. Shakhan literally means "to dwell" or "to live with", or even "to pitch one's tent." The Shekinah means the God-Who-Dwells-Within, and developed primarily after the destruction of the Temple of Solomon in 587 BCE

I think Lady Elizabeth offers a very good definition.
Hopefully it's even a website that my good Lady Vetivert would approve of.

A much longer and more scholorly article can be found at The Jewish Encyclopedia

A very well written paper on the theological development of the Trinity can be found here. Trinity Doctrine I've only had the time for a cursory examination, but the theology looks correct pretty much throghout.

Two Thoughts.
Why have you still not read more scholory works on the development of the Tinity?
Can man truly encapsulate the infinite god-head in any single or set of definitions.

Hope you have a great day, and read a some good books on the ecumenical councils.



kevv729
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02 Nov 2005, 10:48 am

irishmic

I used to have many books on doctrines and dogmas but I did a lot of traveling and lost them sorry to say. I anymore just use the internet and Google. there is so much information out there were to start and to quote.

Even all the books I did read the Trinity has never made any sence to me.


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irishmic
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02 Nov 2005, 8:23 pm

Well Kevv congradulations.
I always admire someone serious enough to take a philosophical interest in what they claim to believe.

The Trinitarian structure actually makes much more sense to me then the creation of a pantheon of demi gods. When dealing with the infinite, it helps the human mind to have more concrete exemplars to use as guideposts. Thus, we find similarities to the trinity position in most faith traditions.

The key to the Trinitarian position is not G-d, or the Holy Ghost, it is Jesus as the man/G-d.



kevv729
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02 Nov 2005, 9:43 pm

irishmic

Does this mean I win, just joking. OK.

I am afraid that I take to many things I believe maybe to seriously for my own good but that is how I am. maybe it the AS in Me.

God maybe infinite but he is not is not unknowable or unapproachable or even a mystery for he want to be knowable to us, he wants to be approachable to us, he do not want to be mysterious to us. at least that is how I see God.

Yes about 99.99% believe in a Trinity Doctrine and they claim it by making God unknowable, unapproachable, and mysterious, when they really should not. For Faith is more than traditions, it should be a way of living Life.

To me there is only one Almighty and Holy God the Father, Jesus is just the Son of the God Almighty and Holy, the Holy Ghost or Spirit is God's active force to help Us, and glide Us, comfort Us, to educate Us, in the true ways of the Father and of His Son.

That is why I do not believe in the Trinity Doctrine.

Philosophical Interests what are they. Just kidding. OK.


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irishmic
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03 Nov 2005, 1:12 am

With whats going on elsewhere on this site, I've lost interest in the argument.
There really can be no winners or losers, only varying forms of reference.

I will stand that the infinite can not be known through the finite.
I have no problems seeing mankind as a part of the infinite.
Being a part of the infinite, there has to be a way back to the whole, and a way of viewing the whole.
However, one can not see G-d and live. One must be lifted out of a limited frame of mind, from a limited body. This is no easy task. A few have claimed to have done it, but I don't personally know any of them.

You want to claim that Jesus is the G-d/Man, cool I have no problems with that.
I also have no problems with seeing Krishna as the G-d/Man, or Gautama Buddha as the awakened one.

I have problems with claiming exclusivity to the metaphor.

So lets say that while Trinitarianism posits that Jesus is the G-d/Man. The metaphor inherent in the doctrine can be found in numerous cultures across the globe. Thus, the underlying metaphor has universal meaning and relevance.