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irishmic
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03 Nov 2005, 1:12 am

With whats going on elsewhere on this site, I've lost interest in the argument.
There really can be no winners or losers, only varying forms of reference.

I will stand that the infinite can not be known through the finite.
I have no problems seeing mankind as a part of the infinite.
Being a part of the infinite, there has to be a way back to the whole, and a way of viewing the whole.
However, one can not see G-d and live. One must be lifted out of a limited frame of mind, from a limited body. This is no easy task. A few have claimed to have done it, but I don't personally know any of them.

You want to claim that Jesus is the G-d/Man, cool I have no problems with that.
I also have no problems with seeing Krishna as the G-d/Man, or Gautama Buddha as the awakened one.

I have problems with claiming exclusivity to the metaphor.

So lets say that while Trinitarianism posits that Jesus is the G-d/Man. The metaphor inherent in the doctrine can be found in numerous cultures across the globe. Thus, the underlying metaphor has universal meaning and relevance.



kevv729
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03 Nov 2005, 2:05 pm

irishmic

I was just JOKING about winners or losers. OK.

Yeah what has been going on elsewhere on this site. It is a bit detracting and hard to concentrate on the argument in a manor of speaking.

You are right nobody can see God and live in the state as we humans are today or anytime of humanity has been around. Due to what Adam did in the Garden of Eden.

We though can get to know God in a Spiritual Way nothing in a physical way it is a matter of Faith. Faith gives us knowledge and understanding in what We believe in. Faith is the bases for what we are in Our Lives, for Faith is what we become in the knowledge and understanding of what makes Us, Us. Even Faith is a Way of Living Our Life.

I just see Jesus as the Son of God, not as any God Man. I think mankind can be godly in a Spiritual Way only though. By having Faith in God the Father and His Son.

Maybe Trinitarianism that men have created over the years of mankind and in different religions have come to be into Christianity and its belief in the Trinity itself. I see the Trinity as being borrowed from these religions of the Past. We have made the Trinity as a major Doctrine of the Christian religions of this World. This Trinity Doctrine is not from God himself, it is from what men want to believe to give God meaning in their Lives. If this makes the Trinity a metaphor then they make it a metaphor. But is God a metaphor I say no, those in Christianity should not either too. Remember God does not what to be unknowable or unapproachable, or even a mysterious, to Us and Us to God.


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irishmic
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03 Nov 2005, 10:59 pm

I applaud your beliefs Kevv, and your willingness to explore and question them.
As for what I ultimately believe, I refer you the PM I sent you a couple of weeks ago.

God Bless!



kevv729
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31 Dec 2005, 2:26 pm

Does Anybody what to Debate the Trinity anymore.



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31 Dec 2005, 3:12 pm

I'm not much of a debater. I believe that since Jesus said he and God and the Holy Spirit were the same yet individual it must be true. I'm not sure how its done, but I choose to believe that its true. One explanation that seems to hold water is related to the multi-dimensionality of God. We exist in 4 dimensions: height,width,depth, and time. We can change or position relative to the first three, but we cannot move with respect to time. If, as some have theorized, God exists in 5 or more dimensions and is therefore able to move with respect to time, many things would be possible including Jesus being with the Father before his birth.
As far as the 3 being one, looking at the original words and their various connotations I think it is better translated as the 3 are of 1 mind. In other words, they think exactly alike and in any given set of circumstances will take exactly the same action, speak exactly the same words, etc.
Here's a link with a lot of useful information...http://www.reasons.org/
The founder, Hugh Ross, is a well known astrophysicist. He came to believe in God by reading the book of Genesis as though it were a scientific paper and found that it supported all of what we know now to be true about the makeup of the universe.



CRB
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01 Jan 2006, 10:57 pm

I can understand why the Trinity is such a hard concept to grasp. It defies the logical and rational mind. Even though the word "Trinity" per se is not explicitly mentioned in the Bible, it is very clear that the Bible teaches a triune God. Even one of the Hebrew words for God in the Old Testament, Elohim, suggests a plural nature of God. In Genesis, it says, "Let us make man in our own image." This is no royal "We"--this is a plural God. In the New Testament, God reveals Himself as Father, Son (Jesus), and Holy Spirit. These persons all make up God--one cubed. The triune nature of God indicates that God is both transcendant and imminent. Believers have a personal relationship with the Father through the Son by the power of the Holy Spirit, which comes inside us once we believe. The notion of the Trinity or triune nature of God is a mystery, and as a believer, I am content to keep it that way.



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02 Jan 2006, 1:49 am

If you study the Qabalah (sometimes spelt with a K), ALL religions will make sense. If your not familiar with it already (sorry - i havent read past pg1!) this is what i posted on the 'drugs and religion/mental illness' thread;

Quote:
...My religious background is in the study of metaphysics. By studying different faiths concurrently, it is possible to see through the superficial differences (caused by culture, politics and so on) and see that, in essence they are basically the same. (if your familiar with C. Jung, he calls these core-values the 'archetypes')

This approach also makes it possible to comprehend conciousness and spirituality in diagrammatic and numerological terms (Jewish mysticism or qabalah). That doesnt detract from any particular faith taken on its own merits, but IMO if you study just one faith the superficial differences i mentioned are more likely to obscure the underlying truth. A comparative approach is therefore more efficient at yielding results. By listening to different 'messengers', all the minor discrepancies or falsehoods between them will tend to cancel each other out thus revealing their common ground.


The trinity is represented in the tree-of-life diagram as the triad; (1) kether, (2)Chockmah, (3)Binah which occupy the space above the abyss. The very nature of the abyss makes the triad difficult to make sense of; it requires an epiphany. I dont think i could conciously apprehend the triad out of context of the bigger (base-10) picture.

tbh i think the necessary revelation is more likely to come through quiet contemplation and a flash of meditative trance, than an internet discussion board. ;)

-which is why this post will probably sound like semi-coherent self-indulgent tripe :D



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02 Jan 2006, 10:46 am

CRB wrote:
I can understand why the Trinity is such a hard concept to grasp. It defies the logical and rational mind. Even though the word "Trinity" per se is not explicitly mentioned in the Bible, it is very clear that the Bible teaches a triune God. Even one of the Hebrew words for God in the Old Testament, Elohim, suggests a plural nature of God. In Genesis, it says, "Let us make man in our own image." This is no royal "We"--this is a plural God. In the New Testament, God reveals Himself as Father, Son (Jesus), and Holy Spirit. These persons all make up God--one cubed. The triune nature of God indicates that God is both transcendant and imminent. Believers have a personal relationship with the Father through the Son by the power of the Holy Spirit, which comes inside us once we believe. The notion of the Trinity or triune nature of God is a mystery, and as a believer, I am content to keep it that way.
Why would God want to be a MYSTERY so We would not be able to UNDERSTAND HIM.

Maybe We need to make God a Mysterious so We can not UNDERSTAND HIM.


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02 Jan 2006, 11:01 am

psych wrote:
If you study the Qabalah (sometimes spelt with a K), ALL religions will make sense. If your not familiar with it already (sorry - i havent read past pg1!) this is what i posted on the 'drugs and religion/mental illness' thread;

Quote:
...My religious background is in the study of metaphysics. By studying different faiths concurrently, it is possible to see through the superficial differences (caused by culture, politics and so on) and see that, in essence they are basically the same. (if your familiar with C. Jung, he calls these core-values the 'archetypes')

This approach also makes it possible to comprehend conciousness and spirituality in diagrammatic and numerological terms (Jewish mysticism or qabalah). That doesnt detract from any particular faith taken on its own merits, but IMO if you study just one faith the superficial differences i mentioned are more likely to obscure the underlying truth. A comparative approach is therefore more efficient at yielding results. By listening to different 'messengers', all the minor discrepancies or falsehoods between them will tend to cancel each other out thus revealing their common ground.


The trinity is represented in the tree-of-life diagram as the triad; (1) kether, (2)Chockmah, (3)Binah which occupy the space above the abyss. The very nature of the abyss makes the triad difficult to make sense of; it requires an epiphany. I dont think i could conciously apprehend the triad out of context of the bigger (base-10) picture.

tbh i think the necessary revelation is more likely to come through quiet contemplation and a flash of meditative trance, than an internet discussion board. ;)

-which is why this post will probably sound like semi-coherent self-indulgent tripe :D
There has been many triad of gods in ancient world of Babylon, Egypt, Palmyra, and India.

I think Trinities are a human invention.


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02 Jan 2006, 9:11 pm

kevv729 wrote:
Does Anybody what to Debate the Trinity anymore.


Debating religion is tough, its like two giants trying to fall the other one using peas.
(ie both sides are stubborn)


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03 Jan 2006, 12:07 pm

Mithrandir wrote:
kevv729 wrote:
Does Anybody what to Debate the Trinity anymore.


Debating religion is tough, its like two giants trying to fall the other one using peas.
(ie both sides are stubborn)
Really You don't say.

I am a giving person willing to listen to any Ideals of the Trinity.


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04 Jan 2006, 1:16 pm

kevv729 wrote:
Mithrandir wrote:
kevv729 wrote:
Does Anybody what to Debate the Trinity anymore.


Debating religion is tough, its like two giants trying to fall the other one using peas.
(ie both sides are stubborn)
Really You don't say.

I am a giving person willing to listen to any Ideals of the Trinity.


Ah but if you were to debate with a person of another religion, its either one of you converts or it would be an endless slugging fest.
There is a point where the debate should stop and discussion should begin.
There is a point where the discussion should stop and a conclusion be developed.
There is a point where a biased conclusion be changed to a balanced one.


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05 Jan 2006, 1:04 am

I Myself like just to debate and see what their Ideals are not trying to change Them and what They Believe in.

People that are Honest can be open with any thing they believe in and yet remain true to what they believe in the end.

That is how I see it in the end. I can remain Myself and be honest with even their ideals and yet open to any ideals that come down the road.


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05 Jan 2006, 2:33 am

twos company, threes a crowd.



kevv729
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05 Jan 2006, 12:38 pm

psych

More the Merrier to Me.


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psych
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05 Jan 2006, 3:30 pm

Quote:
More the Merrier to Me.


- sounds like a bacchanalian interpretation :o