Christians putting Curses upon other christians

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Roman
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chamoisee
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15 Nov 2005, 1:55 pm

I think I mentioned before that my beliefs used to be similar to those of the group you're joining/considering joining.

Cursing was common in my family. We would curse those that we thought of as "evil", people whose beliefs were different and what we considered erroneous, people who had wronged us or disagreed with us, or who had wronged soemone else that we knew, goverment and local leaders, and the list goes on and on.... Once my mom cursed our lanlord for evicting us from the rented house we were in, even though he'd been nice enough to wait until spring and we hadn't paid the rent for most of the winter! She actually mailed him a written curse sayign that his oldest son was going to die, and the cops showed up (they were treating it as a death threat) and asked her not to make any more curses or to mail any more such letters. It was pretty embarrassing.....

She cursed me, too, in a fit of anger for some petty reason, and for years I honestly felt that my failure in life was due to that curse....

What a way to live, hating and cursing other people.... :roll: :(



Roman
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15 Nov 2005, 4:55 pm

chamoisee wrote:
I think I mentioned before that my beliefs used to be similar to those of the group you're joining/considering joining.


The link that I have shown has NOTHING to do with the group I am considering joining. It is just something I found on the internet.



Sean
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15 Nov 2005, 5:02 pm

The Bible does not have a scriptural use for, nor does it condone curses. That is too much power for a man to weild responsibly. If these "pastors", or any other superstitious "Christian" is cursing people, I would have serious concerns about what kind of spirit they are doing this through.



chamoisee
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15 Nov 2005, 5:42 pm

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The link that I have shown has NOTHING to do with the group I am considering joining. It is just something I found on the internet.


I actually didn't look very hard or long at the linked material or even try to find out what group it was from. But I do remember that you were considering a group with beliefs similar to what I used to practice. I can't say that my parents were typical of that belief system, in fact, they were pretty extreme. But I am well aquainted with cursing people, unfortunately.

And since I have broken ranks with them, I've also become well aquainted with shunning, another unpleasant practice....



Ladysmokeater
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15 Nov 2005, 7:01 pm

Intresting.... curses go way back in history. I was always taught not to curse anyone, just to wish them justice.



Roman
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15 Nov 2005, 10:54 pm

Sean wrote:
The Bible does not have a scriptural use for, nor does it condone curses..


1)Noah put a Curse on Canaan
2)Jesus put a Curse on fig tree
3)Paul put a Curse on magician
4)There is both Old Testament and New Testament use of Excommunication



Roman
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15 Nov 2005, 11:00 pm

chamoisee wrote:
Quote:
The link that I have shown has NOTHING to do with the group I am considering joining. It is just something I found on the internet.


I actually didn't look very hard or long at the linked material or even try to find out what group it was from. But I do remember that you were considering a group with beliefs similar to what I used to practice. I can't say that my parents were typical of that belief system, in fact, they were pretty extreme. But I am well aquainted with cursing people, unfortunately


1)What was the name of the cult you were in?
2)Did you believe in keeping Jewish law?
3)Did you believe in deity of Jesus Christ?
4)Can you summarize the procedure of Curses in all details? Like what were the rituals involved? And how did they make sure that the subject actually listens to the Curse? Do they like invite them for dinner as if nothing is happening and then lock all the doors while they aren't looking and once they can't leave the house they would read a Curse to them?
5)If your mom Cursed you only "in a fit of anger" why didn't she remove the Curse
6)How was it possible to Curse only "in a fit of anger"? Weren't there some kind of complicated rigual involved as opposed to jsut one word?
7)Why did the landlord evict you? Just curious



DrizzleMan
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16 Nov 2005, 8:44 am

Roman wrote:
Weren't there some kind of complicated rigual involved as opposed to just one word?


Sticking pins into dolls probably counts as witchcraft or sorcery and is not recommended by the bible.

Roman wrote:
And how did they make sure that the subject actually listens to the Curse?


If a curse is only effective when the subject listens to it, that would fall under the placebo effect and can be cured by positive thinking.

Who would you want to curse, and why? There is probably a better way to deal with the problem.



chamoisee
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16 Nov 2005, 1:18 pm

Quote:
1)What was the name of the cult you were in?


I don't know that it had a name. The closest thing would be Assembly of Yahweh, although they would disagree with a lot of what we did and practiced. We were isolated and became very extreme. We were awfully close to what I think is called United Church of Christ? It is a seventh day church that keeps Old Testament laws, maybe I have the name wrong. The primary difference between that and us is that we were into the sacred names issue.

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2)Did you believe in keeping Jewish law?


Yes.

Quote:
3)Did you believe in deity of Jesus Christ?


My family did. Assembly of Yahweh does not. After I left I gradually came to the conclusion that I did not believe in his diety. We did not believe in the trinity doctrine.

Quote:
4)Can you summarize the procedure of Curses in all details? Like what were the rituals involved? And how did they make sure that the subject actually listens to the Curse? Do they like invite them for dinner as if nothing is happening and then lock all the doors while they aren't looking and once they can't leave the house they would read a Curse to them?


Well, basically, my mom or soemone else would get a prophecy that we were supposed to curse someone, and we would all sit down and pray a curse against them. In one case, we read a psalm, I think it was psalm 109, against a police man who had wronged one of our friends. Rarely was a person ever cursed to their face. We woudl curse them and then wait expectantly for something bad to happen afterwards as proof that the curse had been effective. When the policeman had an accident with his drill and it's bit got tangled up in his privates, we took that as evidence that yes, the curse was taking effect.

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5)If your mom Cursed you only "in a fit of anger" why didn't she remove the Curse


My mom is a spiteful, unforgiving person. My best protection against her stupid curse is not to believe in it..... :roll:

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6)How was it possible to Curse only "in a fit of anger"? Weren't there some kind of complicated ritual involved as opposed to jsut one word?


No, the curse was definitely more than one word. I don't recall what all she said, but it was pretty horrible and she ranted and raved a lot.

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7)Why did the landlord evict you? Just curious


Because we hadn't paid the rent for months on end!! He had every right to evict us, he'd been more than patient. When we left we cursed the house and land, and then we were afraid to even set foot on the property again....



Grievous
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16 Nov 2005, 3:04 pm

Sean wrote:
The Bible does not have a scriptural use for, nor does it condone curses. That is too much power for a man to weild responsibly. If these "pastors", or any other superstitious "Christian" is cursing people, I would have serious concerns about what kind of spirit they are doing this through.


Concur.



chamoisee
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16 Nov 2005, 5:16 pm

Grievous wrote:
Sean wrote:
The Bible does not have a scriptural use for, nor does it condone curses. That is too much power for a man to weild responsibly. If these "pastors", or any other superstitious "Christian" is cursing people, I would have serious concerns about what kind of spirit they are doing this through.


Concur.


You need to read the bible again, then. Even Jesus cursed a helpless fig tree for nothign more than not bearing fruit even though it wasn't the season for it to do so! At least one book of the Old Testament is more or less devoted to cursing various nations.... Cursing, like shunning, is entirely biblical/scriptural, albeit disagreeable.



Roman
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16 Nov 2005, 10:52 pm

chamoisee wrote:
I don't know that it had a name.


How is it possible for it not to have a name? I mean think of "Assembly of YHWH", "United Church of God", "Jonestown", "Heaven's Gate", etc. All of these have names, just like more "mainline" things like "Jehovah Witnesses", "Mormons", "Seventh day Adventists", all the way to "Baptists" and "Catholics".

So how come your group didn't have a name? Was it just a group of friends deciding to believe something?

chamoisee wrote:
We were isolated and became very extreme. We were awfully close to what I think is called United Church of Christ?


Do you mean United Church of Christ ( http://www.ucc.org/ ) or United Church of God ( http://www.ucg.org/ )

The cult I consider joining is United Church of God. And they are Sabatarian and keep all the Jewish feasts and deitary law. But they DO believe in deity of Christ. They even go as far as saying all believers in their teachings will become gods by joining "God family" in the world to come (and UNTILL the day of judgement "god family" is just the father and the son).

chamoisee wrote:
My family did. Assembly of Yahweh does not.


I was actually asking about Assembly of YHWH over here http://shema.torahofmessiah.com/groupee ... 8010057653
this is a message board linked to torahofmessiah.com which rejects trinity but is NOT part of any church. Either way the admin told me that he suspects Assembly of YHWH does believe in deity of Christ, or at least in his pre-existance. But then again he says there are many things that are called that way so he isn't sure what I am referring to when I use that name. So in light of this

1)Can you dirrect me to a website of Assembly of YHWH that rejects deity of Christ?

2)While they reject his deity, do they believe in pre-existance of Christ?

chamoisee wrote:
After I left I gradually came to the conclusion that I did not believe in his diety.


Good. I am so glad to meet someone with believes similar to my own. So what church do you go to, once you left the church your family goes to?

chamoisee wrote:
We did not believe in the trinity doctrine.


Did you believe in oneness or did you believe in bi-unity, or did you hold to god-family belief similar to Mormonism and Church of God?

chamoisee wrote:
Well, basically, my mom or soemone else would get a prophecy that we were supposed to curse someone,


What do you mean by "getting a prophecy"?

1) The way I think of a word "prophecy" is that God tells you ahead of time what is to come -- while you are NOT part of a picture. So if it is something that you should do as opposed to what is to come, then it is a "calling", not a "prophecy".

2)If it is God who calls you to Curse a given person, how come it happends to be a person you are angry at? Are you basically asking God to ask you to curse someone, then God listens to you and actually asks you (which is what you refer to by "getting a prophecy") and then you actually Curse them because God asked you?

chamoisee wrote:
and we would all sit down and pray a curse against them.


Were you actually joining them? It sounds like you don't agree with their Cursing. So why did you take part in it?

chamoisee wrote:
In one case, we read a psalm, I think it was psalm 109, against a police man who had wronged one of our friends.


Did they read the entire Psalm 109 or just Psalm 109:6-19

The reason I am asking it is that after quickly reading it over it seems like the purpose of the Psalm is actually to denounce people who use curses. So in order not to destroy their own purpose they must have only read verses 6 through 19 in which case they would THEMSELVES automatically fall under the condemnation of the verses that follow.

chamoisee wrote:
Rarely was a person ever cursed to their face.


But do they belive the Curses will be more powerful if it is to the person's face? After all that way the person partakes of the ceremony and hence becomes personally responsible for it. But what is done away from him is out of his control. Like okay in Judaism if you accidentally drop Torah scroll on a floor then people IN THAT ROOM are ALL supposed to fast for 40 days to remove the Curse of such a ritual (even though it happened by accident) BUT people who were NOT in the room don't have to fast at all and have nothing to do with it.

chamoisee wrote:
We woudl curse them and then wait expectantly for something bad to happen afterwards as proof that the curse had been effective. When the policeman had an accident with his drill and it's bit got tangled up in his privates, we took that as evidence that yes, the curse was taking effect.


Do you believe the Curse only causes trouble in this life or do you believe it sends a person to hell? So since you were Cursed by your mother, do they think you are going to hell and have no hope of salvation? In Judaism during the excommunication ceremony the person's soul dies as a consequence of Curses and they have no share in the world to come.

chamoisee wrote:
My mom is a spiteful, unforgiving person. My best protection against her stupid curse is not to believe in it..... :roll:


Then it isn't called "fit of rage", it means she actually meant it.

By the way what was she mad at you for?

chamoisee wrote:
No, the curse was definitely more than one word. I don't recall what all she said, but it was pretty horrible and she ranted and raved a lot.


1)Why didn't you run away so that you don't have to be in the same room while she pronounces the Curse? That way you won't be affected as much? Did she like lock all the doors, or did she ask other people not to let you out?

2)Was she really ranting and raving, or was she sounded very spiritual? I never heard any Curses but somehow I imagine that it is quite likely that some of them are actually very poetic and spiritual with a lot of alluring mystecism. Is it true?

chamoisee wrote:
Because we hadn't paid the rent for months on end!!


Why didn't you pay rent? Was it religious?



chamoisee
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16 Nov 2005, 11:42 pm

Quote:
How is it possible for it not to have a name?
So how come your group didn't have a name? Was it just a group of friends deciding to believe something?


Basically (and I just know I am going to regret admitting this), my family moved up to Idaho, met Randy Weaver, and picked up a lot of what the Weaver family believed, and then studied and took it farther, and we occasionally worsipped with other peole who had similar beliefs. There was an Assembly of Yahweh in Spokane, but we only went there rarely and we disagreed with much of what they believed. Since I have brought up the issue of Randy Weaver, I will also mention here that if he and his family were racist and anti-semitic, it was never apparent to us: my mom was bi-racial and it was obvious, yet they were our good friends.

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Do you mean United Church of Christ ( http://www.ucc.org/ ) or United Church of God ( http://www.ucg.org/ )


LOL, didn't take me very long to figure it out. I meant the United Church of God. Many of the people we worshipped with came from there.

Quote:
1)Can you dirrect me to a website of Assembly of YHWH that rejects deity of Christ?

2)While they reject his deity, do they believe in pre-existance of Christ?


1: Here is the one that we got the magazine from, there are several....http://www.ynca.com/

2: The one that I was baptized in (later, after I left my family) didn't believe in the deity of Christ but they did believe in his pre-existence.

Quote:
Good. I am so glad to meet someone with beliefs similar to my own. So what church do you go to, once you left the church your family goes to?


Like I said, I went to the Assembly of Yahweh in Texas (Cisco) and was baptized there. I would up in an arranged (by my parents) marriage that was very abusive, and when I finally worked up the courage to leave it, became something of a pariah among the people I had worshipped with. For a while I went to the Church of Christ and antagonized them, trying to convince them of the Sabbath, sacred names, etc etc. During this time, I became drawn more to regular Judaism. Eventually I concluded that all of religion was an illusion and gave it up entirely (and reluctantly).

It is getting late here, so I will answer the rest tomorrow. :wink:



chamoisee
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18 Nov 2005, 2:13 am

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Did you believe in oneness or did you believe in bi-unity, or did you hold to god-family belief similar to Mormonism and Church of God?


Well, my mom had this idea that 3 was an evil number (the number of the evil one) along with 6 and 9, so she was unwilling to entertain any idea with a positive connotation that involved the number three. Therefore, there could not possibly be three persons or even three aspects of God. She did believe in the Holy Spirit, but maintained that this was simply Yahweh's spirit, not a seperate person. For my part, I was confused, and I never did make sense out of the trinity doctrine, or for that matter, was never able to reconcile oneness with the New Testament.

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What do you mean by "getting a prophecy"?

1) The way I think of a word "prophecy" is that God tells you ahead of time what is to come -- while you are NOT part of a picture. So if it is something that you should do as opposed to what is to come, then it is a "calling", not a "prophecy".


This is where the mental illness came in. In my opinion, my mom is mentally ill. She believed that God talked to her and she was a prophetess, and He could talk to all of us. In fact, we were ordered to pray and seek answers and try to hear God's voice and to answer all sorts of questions that our parents had written down. We receieved "prophecies" and what you would call callings, as well, on a daily basis or more, as well as dream interpretations, etc etc.....

Quote:
2)If it is God who calls you to Curse a given person, how come it happends to be a person you are angry at? Are you basically asking God to ask you to curse someone, then God listens to you and actually asks you (which is what you refer to by "getting a prophecy") and then you actually curse them because God asked you?


Such critical thinking would have been taboo and hinted that an unclean spirit was influencing the skeptical and questioning person.... Of course if we didn't like someone, it was because God had given us a "spirit (or gift) of discernment"..... :roll: There were times when I did not want to curse the person named (and on at least one occasion, I actually had the nerve to refuse to), and this was "proof" that I was one of the less spiritual ones.

Quote:
Were you actually joining them? It sounds like you don't agree with their Cursing. So why did you take part in it?


It was a family affair, and if you join that church I have no doubt that you will quickly see exactly what I mean by that (although in my case, it was only my family). There wasn't any room for non-participation or free thought of any kind whatsoever. None. Like I said, I did once refuse to join in cursing a particular family.

Quote:
Did they read the entire Psalm 109 or just Psalm 109:6-19

The reason I am asking it is that after quickly reading it over it seems like the purpose of the Psalm is actually to denounce people who use curses. So in order not to destroy their own purpose they must have only read verses 6 through 19 in which case they would THEMSELVES automatically fall under the condemnation of the verses that follow.


Nope, the whole thing. Again, critical thinking wasn't too high on our list of priorities. We blithely overlooked things that we didn't wish to see.....

Quote:
But do they belive the Curses will be more powerful if it is to the person's face?


I don't think we thought it mattered. The only reason to let someone know they were being cursed was as a display of power or for imtimidation value.

Quote:
Do you believe the Curse only causes trouble in this life or do you believe it sends a person to hell? So since you were Cursed by your mother, do they think you are going to hell and have no hope of salvation? In Judaism during the excommunication ceremony the person's soul dies as a consequence of Curses and they have no share in the world to come.


No, the curse wasn't that serious (even if I believed in it, which I no longer do). It was more like, that my life would be cursed and nothing good would happen to me, that all my efforts would come to nought, that sort of thing. Basically, the sort of thing that any aspie could easily imagine had befallen them based on (in reality) poor social skills and other AS problems.

Quote:
Then it isn't called "fit of rage", it means she actually meant it.
By the way what was she mad at you for?


She is an irrational person fraught with paranoia and wild mood swings. I don't know, but it was probably soemthing like that I had the nerve to disagree with her or didn't take out the garbage quickly enough or something else minor. Or it may have been because I wanted to move out and leave home (at the ripe old age of 19).

Quote:
1)Why didn't you run away so that you don't have to be in the same room while she pronounces the Curse? That way you won't be affected as much? Did she like lock all the doors, or did she ask other people not to let you out?

2)Was she really ranting and raving, or was she sounded very spiritual? I never heard any Curses but somehow I imagine that it is quite likely that some of them are actually very poetic and spiritual with a lot of alluring mystecism. Is it true?


No, she was standing in the door of my bedroom. She was definitely ranting and raving with lots of spiritual sounding language (like the King James Bible type english).

Quote:
Why didn't you pay rent? Was it religious?


Ha. :lol: We had no money. But of course, the landlord should feel privileged for the opportunity to house a whole family of prophets at his expense.... :roll: We definitely owed the man money and plenty of it.



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20 Nov 2005, 10:00 am

I can't help but think that it does more good to focus on the many times the Bible talks of blessing and forgiving than the few times it mentions curses...


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