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Ishmael
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07 Aug 2008, 7:13 am

Acually the Turks were fighting. They didn't fight the yanks; but they did fight the Australians.


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JerryHatake
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07 Aug 2008, 8:13 am

^Well I just check and Turkey became an ally as of Feburary 23rd, 1945. Therefore Turkey was never an Axis Power in the first place but a neutral power through out of most of the war. In other words, you're referring to WWI when The Ottoman Empire was an enemy to the Allied Powers.

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The occupation of İstanbul and İzmir by the Allies in the aftermath of World War I prompted the establishment of the Turkish national movement.[7] Under the leadership of Mustafa Kemal Pasha, a military commander who had distinguished himself during the Battle of Gallipoli, the Turkish War of Independence was waged with the aim of revoking the terms of the Treaty of Sèvres.[6] By September 18, 1922, the occupying armies were repelled and the country saw the birth of the new Turkish state. On November 1, the newly founded parliament formally abolished the Sultanate, thus ending 623 years of Ottoman rule. The Treaty of Lausanne of 1923 led to the international recognition of the sovereignty of the newly formed "Republic of Turkey" as the successor state of the Ottoman Empire, and the republic was officially proclaimed on October 29, 1923, in the new capital of Ankara.[7]

Mustafa Kemal became the republic's first president and subsequently introduced many radical reforms with the aim of founding a new secular republic from the remnants of its Ottoman past.[7] According to the Law on Family Names, the Turkish parliament presented Mustafa Kemal with the honorific name "Atatürk" (Father of the Turks) in 1934.[6]

Turkey entered World War II on the side of the Allies on February 23, 1945 as a ceremonial gesture and became a charter member of the United Nations in 1945.[22] Difficulties faced by Greece after the war in quelling a communist rebellion, along with demands by the Soviet Union for military bases in the Turkish Straits, prompted the United States to declare the Truman Doctrine in 1947. The doctrine enunciated American intentions to guarantee the security of Turkey and Greece, and resulted in large-scale US military and economic support.[23]

After participating with the United Nations forces in the Korean conflict, Turkey joined the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) in 1952, becoming a bulwark against Soviet expansion into the Mediterranean. Following a decade of intercommunal violence on the island of Cyprus and the Greek military coup of July 1974, overthrowing President Makarios and installing Nikos Sampson as dictator, Turkey intervened militarily in 1974. Nine years later the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus (TRNC) was established. The TRNC is recognised only by Turkey.[24]

Following the end of the single-party period in 1945, the multi-party period witnessed tensions over the following decades, and the period between the 1960s and the 1980s was particularly marked by periods of political instability that resulted in a number of military coups d'états in 1960, 1971, 1980 and a post-modern coup d'état in 1997.[25] The liberalization of the Turkish economy that started in the 1980s changed the landscape of the country, with successive periods of high growth and crises punctuating the following decades.[26]


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T-rav20
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07 Aug 2008, 8:58 pm

JerryHatake wrote:
Well think about though, the Atomic Bombs would be one along with the fire bombing of Japanese Cities which killed innocent civilians. Yes they did too but the reality is neither side is good or evil in a total war. We must aware what we're told in school are our "good" stories and beliefs of the war when the truth is more harsher than that in history books.


Sorry, but that's nonsense. You can't even compare the attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki both of which were legitimate military targets to the atrocities in Nanjiang, and the US Military never had a formation like Unit 731, which conducted biological warfare experiments on tens of thousands of Chinese civilians and Allied prisoners-of-war.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_of_Nanjiang

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731

While the actions of the US military were brutal, they were a strategic necessity and ultimately prevented far greater numbers of deaths. The actions of the Japanese military were monstrous and, yes evil.


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07 Aug 2008, 9:14 pm

T-rav20 wrote:
JerryHatake wrote:
Well think about though, the Atomic Bombs would be one along with the fire bombing of Japanese Cities which killed innocent civilians. Yes they did too but the reality is neither side is good or evil in a total war. We must aware what we're told in school are our "good" stories and beliefs of the war when the truth is more harsher than that in history books.


Sorry, but that's nonsense. You can't even compare the attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki both of which were legitimate military targets to the atrocities in Nanjiang, and the US Military never had a formation like Unit 731, which conducted biological warfare experiments on tens of thousands of Chinese civilians and Allied prisoners-of-war.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_of_Nanjiang

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731

While the actions of the US military were brutal, they were a strategic necessity and ultimately prevented far greater numbers of deaths. The actions of the Japanese military were monstrous and, yes evil.


Exactly. The Americans did not psychologically condition their troops the way the Japanese did; that being to be merciless killers, extensions of the Emperor's will. There are many Japanese troops who regret their actions now, no doubt; but there are also many who are still in denial. Japanese schools still teach their biased view of history, as far as I know; unless they've changed their policy in the past couple of years. The only reason they were even allowed to get away with this is because of their proximity to the Soviet Union's satellite states in East Asia. Obviously the Americans wanted them to be content and strong to contend with North Korea and North Vietnam, and the Communist Chinese.



JerryHatake
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07 Aug 2008, 9:55 pm

Vigilans wrote:
T-rav20 wrote:
JerryHatake wrote:
Well think about though, the Atomic Bombs would be one along with the fire bombing of Japanese Cities which killed innocent civilians. Yes they did too but the reality is neither side is good or evil in a total war. We must aware what we're told in school are our "good" stories and beliefs of the war when the truth is more harsher than that in history books.


Sorry, but that's nonsense. You can't even compare the attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki both of which were legitimate military targets to the atrocities in Nanjiang, and the US Military never had a formation like Unit 731, which conducted biological warfare experiments on tens of thousands of Chinese civilians and Allied prisoners-of-war.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_of_Nanjiang

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731

While the actions of the US military were brutal, they were a strategic necessity and ultimately prevented far greater numbers of deaths. The actions of the Japanese military were monstrous and, yes evil.


Exactly. The Americans did not psychologically condition their troops the way the Japanese did; that being to be merciless killers, extensions of the Emperor's will. There are many Japanese troops who regret their actions now, no doubt; but there are also many who are still in denial. Japanese schools still teach their biased view of history, as far as I know; unless they've changed their policy in the past couple of years. The only reason they were even allowed to get away with this is because of their proximity to the Soviet Union's satellite states in East Asia. Obviously the Americans wanted them to be content and strong to contend with North Korea and North Vietnam, and the Communist Chinese.


Ah true but I took a class last fall dealing South Africa and Asia/Japan since 1945 from of social history perpestive. Many believe the Emperor should have been trialed but this would caused massive repercussions such as a strong opposition to the American occupation of Japan. Like I said before their own government is split on apologizing for their past war crimes. Germany doesn't even mention WWII in Europe in their history books for different reasons but they will mention Hitler did good for their economy before the war. I look at the past now from a social historian view who bases my evidence not on facts like high school history but more of why these events occurred in the first place. Spite what the Japanese did, I'll still forgive them because one I didn't served during the Pacific War and two everyone is a human being and choose what we can do and not do.

And to Prof:
Incendiary Bombs were strategic mission based weapons so the U.S. Navy would not have accessed to them at all. Only U.S. Army Air Force would because they had strategic missions. However, they could be used for pre-invasion bombings but the Japanese pretty much were dug in well so not much effect there.


Napalm was a tactical mission based weapon which the Navy had access to in the first place more than likely when carrier task forces began attacking the Japanese Home Islands.
Quote:
Napalm bombs were first used in the Pacific Theatre during the Battle of Tinian by Marine aviators; however, its use was complicated by problems with mixing, fuzing and aircraft release mechanisms.[3] In World War II, The USAAF bombed cities in Japan with napalm, and used it in bombs and flamethrowers in Germany and the Japanese-held islands.


They were used but the enemy was well prepared and well dug in as well. Look at Iwo Jima nothing was destroyed because everything was underground and this was the same deal with Okinawa.


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07 Aug 2008, 10:14 pm

Holocaust scholar right here. *raises hand tentatively*


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JerryHatake
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07 Aug 2008, 10:14 pm

T-rav20 wrote:
JerryHatake wrote:
Well think about though, the Atomic Bombs would be one along with the fire bombing of Japanese Cities which killed innocent civilians. Yes they did too but the reality is neither side is good or evil in a total war. We must aware what we're told in school are our "good" stories and beliefs of the war when the truth is more harsher than that in history books.


Sorry, but that's nonsense. You can't even compare the attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki both of which were legitimate military targets to the atrocities in Nanjiang, and the US Military never had a formation like Unit 731, which conducted biological warfare experiments on tens of thousands of Chinese civilians and Allied prisoners-of-war.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_of_Nanjiang

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731

While the actions of the US military were brutal, they were a strategic necessity and ultimately prevented far greater numbers of deaths. The actions of the Japanese military were monstrous and, yes evil.


Well then you realize that the fire bombing of Tokyo killed more people than Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined. Yes we're saw the same to the Japanese. The problem is that Japan went back to the Samurai Code which caused much problems to us than anything. In the end though it was a total war on all aspects of warfare. We even killed Japanese POWs out of anger towards what they did to us. U.S. soldiers and marines would even collect dead Japanese soldiers skulls and used for things. We even cut gold teeth out of their dead. Yes the Japanese did cruel things to us and in returned we did the same to them. People have the ability to choose but that ability can be easily manipulated toward an evil cause when the person is good.


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T-rav20
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07 Aug 2008, 10:17 pm

JerryHatake wrote:
Ah true but I took a class last fall dealing South Africa and Asia/Japan since 1945 from of social history perpestive. Many believe the Emperor should have been trialed but this would caused massive repercussions such as a strong opposition to the American occupation of Japan. Like I said before their own government is split on apologizing for their past war crimes. Germany doesn't even mention WWII in Europe in their history books for different reasons but they will mention Hitler did good for their economy before the war. I look at the past now from a social historian view who bases my evidence not on facts like high school history but more of why these events occurred in the first place. Spite what the Japanese did, I'll still forgive them because one I didn't served during the Pacific War and two everyone is a human being and choose what we can do and not do.

No.
"It's a cultural thing" does not cut it when you are talking about the organized butchery of hundreds of thousands of people. There is no social-historical perspective that can change the evil implicit in such acts. There is no excuse for rape, torture, and murder, ever.


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07 Aug 2008, 10:22 pm

MissPickwickian wrote:
Holocaust scholar right here. *raises hand tentatively*


That is cool to know here.


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07 Aug 2008, 10:34 pm

JerryHatake wrote:
Well then you realize that the fire bombing of Tokyo killed more people than Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined. Yes we're saw the same to the Japanese. The problem is that Japan went back to the Samurai Code which caused much problems to us than anything. In the end though it was a total war on all aspects of warfare. We even killed Japanese POWs out of anger towards what they did to us. U.S. soldiers and marines would even collect dead Japanese soldiers skulls and used for things. We even cut gold teeth out of their dead. Yes the Japanese did cruel things to us and in returned we did the same to them. People have the ability to choose but that ability can be easily manipulated toward an evil cause when the person is good.


Yes, but those actions were alway committed by individual men. It's a damned shame those men were never punished for their actions, but there was never any tacit approval from higher up the command chain. No American General ever ordered his troops to go rape and murder the inhabitants of an entire city, or to execute any prisoners they felt like killing, and if they had their soldiers would have refused those orders. The Japanese Officers did issue such orders and their men carried out those orders. That is unforgivable.


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07 Aug 2008, 10:35 pm

MissPickwickian wrote:
Holocaust scholar right here. *raises hand tentatively*

Hello


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07 Aug 2008, 10:35 pm

T-rav20 wrote:
JerryHatake wrote:
Ah true but I took a class last fall dealing South Africa and Asia/Japan since 1945 from of social history perpestive. Many believe the Emperor should have been trialed but this would caused massive repercussions such as a strong opposition to the American occupation of Japan. Like I said before their own government is split on apologizing for their past war crimes. Germany doesn't even mention WWII in Europe in their history books for different reasons but they will mention Hitler did good for their economy before the war. I look at the past now from a social historian view who bases my evidence not on facts like high school history but more of why these events occurred in the first place. Spite what the Japanese did, I'll still forgive them because one I didn't served during the Pacific War and two everyone is a human being and choose what we can do and not do.

No.
"It's a cultural thing" does not cut it when you are talking about the organized butchery of hundreds of thousands of people. There is no social-historical perspective that can change the evil implicit in such acts. There is no excuse for rape, torture, and murder, ever.


What if the excuse was from the U.S. and our government? Do we tell not write about it because then their own nation would be shocked and demanded the truth like with the case with Germany as well? Do we make the Germans to admitted to the Holocaust and the likewise for Japan? There is more than meets the eye a good amount of the time.

The Tokyo War Trials had those who ordered such actions killed or imprisoned for life. A little military thing here, if you believe an order is immoral then you can choose to not obey it. Also those in charged are the true evil when it comes to such actions. The Japanese soldiers were forced to do it but they still had a choice to do it, Watch Letters from Iwo Jima and it will break your ideas of cruelty and evil the Japanese were. Thus there is always two sides to a story in the end.


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07 Aug 2008, 10:56 pm

T-rav20 wrote:
MissPickwickian wrote:
Holocaust scholar right here. *raises hand tentatively*

Hello


Well, in training. Got interested about, say, two years ago. And it's a big subject. For an aspie.


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T-rav20
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07 Aug 2008, 11:08 pm

JerryHatake wrote:
What if the excuse was from the U.S. and our government? Do we tell not write about it because then their own nation would be shocked and demanded the truth like with the case with Germany as well? Do we make the Germans to admitted to the Holocaust and the likewise for Japan? There is more than meets the eye a good amount of the time.
If such acts were committed I would be glad to see those who committed them (or those who ordered them to be committed) brought to justice no matter whose side they were on.

JerryHatake wrote:
The Tokyo War Trials had those who ordered such actions killed or imprisoned for life.

Considering that the entire Japanese High Command and most of their Officer Corps were complicit in some way or another with crimes against humanity, I doubt a tenth of those deserving received punishment.

JerryHatake wrote:
A little military thing here, if you believe an order is immoral then you can choose to not obey it. Also those in charged are the true evil when it comes to such actions. The Japanese soldiers were forced to do it but they still had a choice to do it, Watch Letters from Iwo Jima and it will break your ideas of cruelty and evil the Japanese were. Thus there is always two sides to a story in the end.

Indeed, and any who refused such immoral orders are definitely on the side of the angels. The fact is though, when presented with that choice, many chose wrongly; and when it comes to murder "I was just following orders" is not a viable excuse.


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T-rav20
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07 Aug 2008, 11:20 pm

JerryHatake wrote:
Watch Letters from Iwo Jima and it will break your ideas of cruelty and evil the Japanese were. Thus there is always two sides to a story in the end.
I have not seen the film but it's definitely on my watch list (Along with its companion piece). However I never claimed All Japanese soldiers were cruel or evil. armed combat is what it is, but those who executed unarmed prisoners or committed crimes against civilians certainly were evil.


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08 Aug 2008, 6:10 am

The Japanese soldiers have slowed began to tell their tales about these inhumane acts but their government wants to censored it for some reasons. The Japanese government must fear repercussions towards them or something about its past to the public. I know because there was a film done Nanjing by the Japanese who interviewed the actually soldiers who were there and the government looked down on the film.


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