I hate religious people, why is that a problem?

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23 Sep 2008, 9:51 pm

I think you completely misunderstood Ghandi then... he was practicing tolerance of religion, and at the same time testing the tolerance of others.. He wanted you to see it for what it really was, and what it should be.

Orwell, I'm spiritual too, and I'm not religious.

Psimulus
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23 Sep 2008, 11:17 pm

In response to Ishmaels acertation that he "hates" religion. Are you certain that it is religion that you "hate" or could it be rather, elements or things about religion that you dislike or disagree with? This is important because generalizing seldomly leads us to certainty. As an example, when a person says that "I do not like that person". Is it the person, or that persons actions or beliefs that they do not like?

Ishmael
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23 Sep 2008, 11:27 pm

Psimulus wrote:

I view that the person is the cause and holds responsibility for those actions and beliefs.
The question you pose is along the lines of the old "do you hate guns or gunmen" question.
Valid, but in my mind the individual is always ultimately at fault.

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23 Sep 2008, 11:51 pm

ShawnWilliam wrote:

Yeah I guess that sounds about right. Personally, even though I am personally a christian, I also practice tolerance for most other faiths... The way I see it, the teachings of Jesus would tell you to love someone for being a human being first, before letting differences in faith get in the way, and definitely to not judge others, especially on a faith basis...

Ishmael wrote:

Valid, but in my mind the individual is always ultimately at fault.

Is that to say that you find me, a practicing christian, at fault for being an intolerant prick when I'm trying to extend an open hard to see past faith issues?

chever
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24 Sep 2008, 12:00 am

Orwell wrote:

chever wrote:

Orwell wrote:

When asked whether he was a Hindu, Gandhi said "Yes I am. I am also a Christian, a Muslim, a Buddhist and a Jew."

This statement makes much more sense from a common Eastern perspective on religion.

I have a Chinese friend who said he's "buying the Jesus insurance" and "buying the Buddha insurance" (something like Pascal's wager).

It sounded strange at first, but I really learned a lot about the Indic / Chinese attitude towards religion when he said that.

Yes, but having the Buddhist insurance invalidates the Jesus insurance policy.

That's not how they see it.

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DentArthurDent
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24 Sep 2008, 12:10 am

I think that it is perfectly reasonable for Ishmael to say he hates this group of people, he has described hate in the literal sense

From the Oxford English Dictionary
hate

• verb feel intense dislike for or a strong aversion towards.

I have to admit to having an intense dislike for religion and those that practice it on a group level, individually I tend to see past the religious aspect unless they are a complete fundie then I really do hate them.

I have often used the term intense dislike, thinking erroneously that hate was something far worse. I suppose hate must have many levels determined by the intensity of the dislike

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techstepgenr8tion
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24 Sep 2008, 12:19 am

Ishmael wrote:

I'm serious here. I'm honest enough with myself to know I hate the religious. I can't help it; the religious perspective is in stark contrast to my own. The... refusal to even argue on common grounds, the retreat into doctrine when challenged.

Now, some people see this as a character flaw on my part. Why? I'm not going to pretend to like them. Why should I? I'm being honest here, it's a fact of my life, so be it. I find no personal fault with it; after all, from a professional standard - I cannot abide their anti-scientific world views. I would not be straying to suggest they disgust me; no offense intended, I'm merely stating my feelings towards them. Now, I know the people this thread will attract... I also know the response they may make - so be it.
But, the fact that I hate them is not the point; the point is, as I said, why should that be a problem?

Even my family, agnostics and atheists, say I should not hate them. Why? If I were to try, I would be merely pretending, until I fail and can not pretend to "respect" them anymore. They are wrong! Why is it taboo to say that!? They are, by my considerations, idiots! Uneducated fools; moreso to the ones attending religious education facilities.
So, why is being honest on my views to them "wrong"? Unpleasant for these people, to hear my views, perhaps. But, it's my open, honest opinion, and if they can spout on about the "evils" of "non-belief", why can't I call them out for being contradictory, tear down offensive posters about non-belief. I mean, vehemently offensive posters.
Acknowledgements of distaste are one thing; bordering on encouraging violence against atheists and other religions posted on a wooden cross are another!

I have always had a problem with religious people; I have no qualms about voicing my concerns over them. So why do people encourage me to "respect" them, considering their own behaviours to other religions, or those without the need to cling to ancient comforts?

Why is that seen as being wrong?! Notice any contradictions? So why can't it just be viewed as a mutual given?

Life's not that easy. Religious people aren't all cut of the same cloth, same experiences, same epiphanies or lack thereof, you'll find some people who will believe anything, other people who'll just go to church because its what they were raised to do, and yet others who are brilliantly intelligent and even were atheist at some time in their lives based on what they saw of natural law, natural selection, the animalistic nature of mankind, until new facts hit them after that to where they realized that evolution and natural law couldn't fully explain it.

I think its best to say that the dangerous people in the world are the non-analytical types who need to be lead and can't tell who knows what they're talking about and means well from someone who's not too far from selling them some Jonestown koolaid. These same people are just as dangerous no matter what their faith position ends up being - religious, atheist, agnostic, because they really can't do any of it right or take the intelligent stances.

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24 Sep 2008, 12:37 am

techstepgenr8tion wrote:

I think its best to say that the dangerous people in the world are the non-analytical types who need to be lead and can't tell who knows what they're talking about and means well from someone who's not too far from selling them some Jonestown koolaid. These same people are just as dangerous no matter what their faith position ends up being - religious, atheist, agnostic, because they really can't do any of it right or take the intelligent stances.

Pretty much sums it all up...

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24 Sep 2008, 2:03 am

Why? Pleasantness. You are interrupting their pleasant lives by introducing hostility leveled directly at them. You have disarmed them, broken their shield, so they plea for respect to recapture some of their armor(pleasantness). Deny them respect and they will bring unpleasantness to you in an honor feud to reclaim some respect and pleasantness from you or they will play the passive aggressive game to lower other's respect for you in an attempt to make your life unpleasant.

By the way, in the social game, respect is kind of a funny word, from what I gather. If you word your sentences and phrases right, you can in fact be down right insulting, and disrespectful, but as long as you say it in a way they find acceptable, they will be ok with it(I don't play the game, so I've not mastered this, but I have seen it done). Say things openly, not playing their game, and you become a pariah. Which may or may not be a problem for you.

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24 Sep 2008, 3:11 am

I'm agnostic. I don't hate religious people, I just feel a bit sorry for them - most of them were indoctrinated from birth into something they couldn't choose. (I should know, I was raised in the Church of the Holy Roman Paedophiles, aka Catholicism)

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Khan_Sama
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24 Sep 2008, 4:58 am

LostInEmulation wrote:

Khan_Sama wrote:

There was a time when I claimed that I wanted to wipe Islam off the face of the Earth, and now I'm a Muslim. Go ahead and say whatever you want, you have every right to. Out of experience, my anti-religion stance in the past earned me no respect apart from a bunch of junkies.

I'd love to hear why you converted! Maybe you can tell here or via pm.

Well, I'm not a convert, I'm a revert...

My story is like this.. My father used to drink a lot when I was small, and used to beat up my mother. Finally, they got divorced. Around that time, I started to become an atheist. I got into a lot of bad habits - drinking, smoking pot, going to the wrong places with the wrong people.

It was in Muscat and Dubai where I felt the need to revert. There were many reasons why I wanted to revert. Back when I was an atheist, I was questioning many aspects of Islam. Why do we pray 5 times a day facing Mecca? Why do we fast for 30 days every lunar year? Why are none of my prayers answered? Etc. It was during this time that I found all the answers I was seeking, then, I realised that Islam is the most perfect way of life. It's a healthy, hygenic, and moral way of life. Slowly, my reversion process began. My friends, who were into drugs, started pulling me down. They did whatever it took to make sure I would not revert. I eventually ended up developing Hallucinogen Persisting Perception Disorder due to LSD.

Finally, my friendship with them ended. One of them attempted rape (may he rot in the worst part of hell forever), another was a kleptomaniac and stole a lot of my things, another migrated to the USA, and the fourth insulted me, my religion, and my ethnicity while consuming drugs in my home. I'm glad that my friendship with them came to an end. That was when the true process of my reversion began. By the grace of Allah, I have been free of alcohol, drugs, and the wrong company for a long time now, and my Hallucinogic visual distortions are rare, probably twice or thrice a month now. My father too has become a very good Muslim now, may Allah forgive him and me for all the mistakes we've done in the past.

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24 Sep 2008, 6:52 am

Ishmael wrote:

Even my family, agnostics and atheists, say I should not hate them. Why? If I were to try, I would be merely pretending, until I fail and can not pretend to "respect" them anymore. They are wrong! Why is it taboo to say that!? They are, by my considerations, idiots! Uneducated fools; moreso to the ones attending religious education facilities.

All fanatic atheists I've ever known are far less intelligent than the christians I've known. In fact, many of them dropped out of the easy, norwegian high schools.

Quote:

So, why is being honest on my views to them "wrong"? Unpleasant for these people, to hear my views, perhaps. But, it's my open, honest opinion, and if they can spout on about the "evils" of "non-belief", why can't I call them out for being contradictory, tear down offensive posters about non-belief. I mean, vehemently offensive posters.
Acknowledgements of distaste are one thing; bordering on encouraging violence against atheists and other religions posted on a wooden cross are another!

Josef Stalin killed more people because they were religious than all the religions combined. Pol Pot, Kim il-Sung, Lenin, Fidel Castro and many more communist motherf*ckers have also killed a lot of people just because they were religious.

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24 Sep 2008, 7:21 am

People are always quick to pass judgement without thinking. In my experience there are incredibly stupid people everywhere. In fact, I used to be Nihilist until I realised that moping about all the s**t in the world and how stupid some people are is not going to change anything. In my opinion, you should not hate anybody. It is a waste to comit time, thinking and energy to such a thing.

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DevonB
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24 Sep 2008, 7:24 am

I find religion profoundly distasteful. Religious people? Some are very nice people, even if their motives are based on faulty logic and myth.

Religion is a fairy tale. It's based on stories that have dubious verity, and an mythical creatures such as one that is omnipotent, and a demonstrably made-up virgin birth and resurrection. Both are a device used many times over by different cultures to create a "greater-than-human" individual.

Anyone who doubts can go watch Zeitgeist the movie on YouTube.

Religion promotes divisiveness and cliques. It promostes an us or them attitude and causes dischord and often violence.

As for arguing on their ground...let's start off with the premise that you must prove to me that there is this mythical creature you call god out there first. After that, prove that your holy book of made-up stories are real. You have the burden of proof upon you. We are working with the assumption that it must be proved. Why argue based on myths. That's like saying we must argue about magic and then tell me that I must believe in it first before discussing it.

Someone said something along the lines that you can only win by becoming what your enemies are. OMG!! ! What twaddle. Should I become a murderer in order to win an argument with a murderer????

Coming out at an atheist is not accepted socially because there are so many people who are brainwashed by religion. I dont' believe in any form of god. That is what Atheism is...Not theistic!

Religion is a waste of reason and sense.

Khan_Sama
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24 Sep 2008, 1:11 pm

DevonB wrote:

Anyone who doubts can go watch Zeitgeist the movie on YouTube.

Zeitgeist, though it is anti-religion, convinced me that Islam is the true path. Firstly, I understood how Jesus's message got corrupted. Secondly, Islam is against the whole concept of clergy controlling the masses (priesthood is banned in Islam, yet, many Imams tend to act like Priests. Most Muslims forget that after Muhammed (pbuh), nobody is allowed to interfere with the religion), although many if not most Muslims are unaware of this. Anyway, Zeitgeist's view of Christianity is no different from Islam's, albeit the fact that Jesus existed. What a wonderful video, may Allah (swt) guide Peter J to the right path.

DevonB, you remind me a lot of what I was two years ago. Except, I used to bash religion a lot more, heh.

Quote:

As for arguing on their ground...let's start off with the premise that you must prove to me that there is this mythical creature you call god out there first. After that, prove that your holy book of made-up stories are real. You have the burden of proof upon you. We are working with the assumption that it must be proved. Why argue based on myths. That's like saying we must argue about magic and then tell me that I must believe in it first before discussing it.

Imam Jafari, the sixth Shi'a Imam [I must note - I don't belong to any particular Islamic sect, I follow the Quran and Sunnah according to what Allah (swt) revealed to prophet Muhammed (pbuh). However, I respect the teachings of wise scholars] was once asked by a man to show him what Allah (swt) looks like. Jafari pointed at the sun and told him to look at it. Alas, the man could not look at the sun as it was too bright. Then, Jafari said "How can you see the creator when you can't see the created?"

I believe in the Quran, because of the science in it. http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/

Quote:

Someone said something along the lines that you can only win by becoming what your enemies are. OMG!! ! What twaddle. Should I become a murderer in order to win an argument with a murderer????

No, but you do have the right to study their ideology (in this case, scriptures) before criticising it, rather than believing in the view of the majority who don't adhere to that ideology.

Please note, I am not trying to convert anyone. I hate it when people accuse me of that, as I myself have not completed my reversion process. I am just trying to get my view across, and I hope you can respect it, as I have nothing but the utmost respect for yours. ^^

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25 Sep 2008, 10:37 am

Reodor_Felgen wrote:

All fanatic atheists I've ever known are far less intelligent than the christians I've known. In fact, many of them dropped out of the easy, norwegian high schools.

I wonder what's you definition of intelligence then.

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