A war between HFA, narcissist and sociopath

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marshall
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31 Aug 2009, 2:34 pm

decoder wrote:
marshall wrote:
Though I've been accused of being self-centered I've never viewed people as not having emotions or being objects. I think that's a misconception of autism. Maybe I thought that way as a 2 year old but beyond that age I have clear memories and I was definitely aware that people were people. I was just more interested in my own activities and obsessions than in socializing on other people's terms.


First of all let me clarify this: I dont see people as inanimate stunts. Of course I am aware they have feelings and ideals. But I just dont care about those. Caring for anybody simply doesnt benefit me so I dont care. I think and act as self-benefit oriented. You can continue feeling contempt but its very natural for me to feel offended. You are judging me or hating me for something I didnt want to be. You can hate rats just because they are rats but you shouldnt tell that to me cuz I can understand what you say. And your feeling contempt doesnt add anything to the argument. Its just your sheerly private "thing".


I never said I hate you. I don't know you enough to hate you. I just said I feel contempt (not hatred) for people who's only purpose in life is to get the better of others. I can't control that feeling any more than you can control the things you feel. Also, being self-benefit oriented isn't something that bothers me as I think everyone is that way. Different people just use different means, even a feeling of pure altruism has a psychological benefit to those who experience it. It's the need to push others down to benefit yourself psychologically that I feel some contempt for. I'm not going to lie and say I don't just to spare your feelings. Since you're being completely open and honest I think I have the right to be as well.



NicksQuestions
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31 Aug 2009, 3:12 pm

decoder wrote:

First of all let me clarify this: I dont see people as inanimate stunts. Of course I am aware they have feelings and ideals. But I just dont care about those. Caring for anybody simply doesnt benefit me so I dont care. I think and act as self-benefit oriented. You can continue feeling contempt but its very natural for me to feel offended. You are judging me or hating me for something I didnt want to be. You can hate rats just because they are rats but you shouldnt tell that to me cuz I can understand what you say. And your feeling contempt doesnt add anything to the argument. Its just your sheerly private "thing".

I think it may be impossible to understand. You should rather "know" it. Its how the machine operates I ll say. Even I was about 2 years old, I was deliberately pissing on carpets and throwing out valuable stuff from window. It demonstrates how the experimenting, limit pushing and surprising acts are well present in that age. I dont think I did those things as part of a plan or sth. Its an instinctive urge. Its a style.

I think sociopaths are great survivors. They are lean and mean. And most importantly, they care about themselves ALOT, therefore safety is very important to them. And of course I am a proud sociopath. I am proud of everything about me but of course I dont expose this in every situation. Its something you should be surprised about or laugh about. But not critisize.


I do agree with you that the sociopath would win out of the three.

However, as far as society thinking about moral issues, something to consider: Using that analogy of rats, if the rat is causing issues, even if people don't hate it, that doesn't mean they're going to accept the rat's destructive behavior. Just like you say "You can't control it", many are going to say society can't control themselves in looking out for psychopaths/sociopaths/anti-social personality disorders. Something to keep in mind, the reputable sources on psychopaths say that they know what they're doing is wrong and are aware of others' emotions, but they just do it for fun.

Some are not going to understand how the sociopath/Aspie diagnosis go together, just looking at the criteria. Some Psychopaths have problems with interpersonal relationships and being social (Ted Bundy), but their other superb social skills which help them manipulate don't sound at all compatible with being Aspie. That doesn't mean you can't have Asperger's, although some are going to bring up that aspect.

From the research I've done, the difference in the lack of emotional aspects between the two is that psychopaths are aware of others' emotions but just don't care. On the other hand, aspies are just clueless. Their compassion is at normal levels, or how much they actually care. However their empathy hasn't taken off, the ability to put oneself in another's shoes or in some cases even recognizing that others have emotions separate from their own. Research has found that if it's pointed out to them, in an intellectual way, then they do start caring. Plus being all absorbed in their obsessions while not talking about other people's interests is more being hyper-obsessed to the point of ignoring everything else, rather than wanting to screw people over for fun.



marshall
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31 Aug 2009, 7:52 pm

NicksQuestions wrote:
However, as far as society thinking about moral issues, something to consider: Using that analogy of rats, if the rat is causing issues, even if people don't hate it, that doesn't mean they're going to accept the rat's destructive behavior. Just like you say "You can't control it", many are going to say society can't control themselves in looking out for psychopaths/sociopaths/anti-social personality disorders. Something to keep in mind, the reputable sources on psychopaths say that they know what they're doing is wrong and are aware of others' emotions, but they just do it for fun.


I just want to be clear that decoder never said he hurts people for fun and I'm not making that accusation. If he did I would have a strong dislike for him but he doesn't say that he does so I'm not going to make that assumption. Maybe a sociopath merely views the world how I might view a video game where it's fairly inconsequential to me if I happen to hurt "innocent" characters in my quest to get the highest score. I just see it as shallow way to go through life and can't relate to it. I think real life is more interesting than a video game where competition is the only motivation. It seems like a waste to me.

Quote:
Some are not going to understand how the sociopath/Aspie diagnosis go together, just looking at the criteria. Some Psychopaths have problems with interpersonal relationships and being social (Ted Bundy), but their other superb social skills which help them manipulate don't sound at all compatible with being Aspie. That doesn't mean you can't have Asperger's, although some are going to bring up that aspect.

From the research I've done, the difference in the lack of emotional aspects between the two is that psychopaths are aware of others' emotions but just don't care. On the other hand, aspies are just clueless. Their compassion is at normal levels, or how much they actually care. However their empathy hasn't taken off, the ability to put oneself in another's shoes or in some cases even recognizing that others have emotions separate from their own. Research has found that if it's pointed out to them, in an intellectual way, then they do start caring. Plus being all absorbed in their obsessions while not talking about other people's interests is more being hyper-obsessed to the point of ignoring everything else, rather than wanting to screw people over for fun.


That might be true for a lot of people with AS and classical Autism but not everyone on the autism spectrum lacks the ability to read emotions. I've done some tests online that purported to measure how well I can read emotions and I got a score that was a bit higher than the NT average. Somehow that can't be the only thing missing or I'd be more socially functional than I am. For me a lot of it is motivation. I don't see the point in a lot of small-talk yet I can fairly easily tell what kind of mood someone is in by watching and listening.

I just don't experience the degree of "warm fuzzies" (for lack of a better term) that NT's do when they socialize. Most conversations I have are one sided because I find it hard to ask questions of NT's. It never occurs to me to try to learn about people so I can try to make an impact on them. I tend to be hyper-focused on myself and on my physical environment. That's how my PDD manifests.

Sociopaths tend to be much more assertive and proactive than I am in a way that's almost a polar opposite. From my knowledge they care very much about how they are perceived and like making some kind of impact on people even if it's superficial and false. I don't care at all about making a superficial impact on people. I want depth. I want to know the real person, not just a personality or object that's a tool I can use.



decoder
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01 Sep 2009, 3:29 pm

marshall wrote:

I never said I hate you. I don't know you enough to hate you. I just said I feel contempt (not hatred) for people who's only purpose in life is to get the better of others. I can't control that feeling any more than you can control the things you feel. Also, being self-benefit oriented isn't something that bothers me as I think everyone is that way. Different people just use different means, even a feeling of pure altruism has a psychological benefit to those who experience it. It's the need to push others down to benefit yourself psychologically that I feel some contempt for. I'm not going to lie and say I don't just to spare your feelings. Since you're being completely open and honest I think I have the right to be as well.


Yea but as I said, your feelings doesnt add to the argument. Moreover I am open beacuse my experiences and feelings are related with the topic. I am aware that my ways are quite hostile.



NicksQuestions wrote:


I do agree with you that the sociopath would win out of the three.

However, as far as society thinking about moral issues, something to consider: Using that analogy of rats, if the rat is causing issues, even if people don't hate it, that doesn't mean they're going to accept the rat's destructive behavior. Just like you say "You can't control it", many are going to say society can't control themselves in looking out for psychopaths/sociopaths/anti-social personality disorders. Something to keep in mind, the reputable sources on psychopaths say that they know what they're doing is wrong and are aware of others' emotions, but they just do it for fun.



As I said in the previous messages, people can think whatever they want, and it d be very natural for them to think bad of sociopaths. Afterall sociopaths are probably most dangerous group in the world. But one neednt reveal his/her feelings about sociopaths to me here cuz they are merely feelings and I can feel offended.

Yes as I wrote above I am aware that my acts would be detrimental to others, but the fun of it is more tempting. Sociopaths are roughly little menaces who see everything around them as toys. Be it animals or people. They get satisfaction from triggering and manipulating things to their plans/desires. They constantly set up small mechanisms in their minds and cant wait to realize them. In these mechanisms they like to play only the triggering part. Rest of the mechanism is actuated by things; mostly people. Thats why they are very intelligent people cuz it takes both imagination and processing power. This is how/why they experiment with things. They are big kids who has developed an over affection to experiments. Domination is their other big affection.

"Bad" and "evil" are very rough terms. And people rarely question it with "why" and "how". If something is against your benefit, it is bad for you. If something is against the common benefit of society, it is bad for society, or just "bad". Sociopaths are potential enemies of the public. But the public is not an enemy to them. So you see, bad and evil are completely subjective terms. And what makes a sociopath evil is that they dont play with your rules, or society's rules. If you leave them alone, they are not evil anymore, are they? And most importantly, you cant push anyone to your system, their brains just operate that way, you cant change it. Moreover, I think that the term "antisocial" implies not that they dont socialize, but rather they dont follow the modern social manners of the society.



NicksQuestions wrote:

From the research I've done, the difference in the lack of emotional aspects between the two is that psychopaths are aware of others' emotions but just don't care. On the other hand, aspies are just clueless. Their compassion is at normal levels, or how much they actually care. However their empathy hasn't taken off, the ability to put oneself in another's shoes or in some cases even recognizing that others have emotions separate from their own. Research has found that if it's pointed out to them, in an intellectual way, then they do start caring. Plus being all absorbed in their obsessions while not talking about other people's interests is more being hyper-obsessed to the point of ignoring everything else, rather than wanting to screw people over for fun.


As a sociopath with asperger. I can tell that while interacting with people, I dont realize they have feelings and they can be hurted. So I often behave inconsiderately and rude. And when they react to me I am clueless again, about what I ve done to them. But if I deliberately toy with people (and it is arranged in the deeper parts of the mind) I am aware that it is bad but I dont care, I never care to care. And there will be no reaction in this case, cuz everything is planned so perfectly and safe for me. Sociopaths are sneaky and clever.



marshall wrote:

That might be true for a lot of people with AS and classical Autism but not everyone on the autism spectrum lacks the ability to read emotions. I've done some tests online that purported to measure how well I can read emotions and I got a score that was a bit higher than the NT average. Somehow that can't be the only thing missing or I'd be more socially functional than I am. For me a lot of it is motivation. I don't see the point in a lot of small-talk yet I can fairly easily tell what kind of mood someone is in by watching and listening.


While interacting with people, aspies focus only on the matter. They see it as a project or design or a problem to process, and they dont realize the human side of it. Reading emotions and focusing on the matter simultaneously is impossible for an aspie. Its not rythmical.


marshall wrote:
Sociopaths tend to be much more assertive and proactive than I am in a way that's almost a polar opposite. From my knowledge they care very much about how they are perceived and like making some kind of impact on people even if it's superficial and false. I don't care at all about making a superficial impact on people. I want depth. I want to know the real person, not just a personality or object that's a tool I can use.


You are correct on that sociopaths care alot of their image on people. As narcissists they need attention, love, adoring, and as experimenters they need control. You need to have a good impression (most of the time friendly, trustworthy and wise) on someone to manipulate him/her.

You probably know about the mind tricks in star wars. This is what a sociopath does. They read and control minds. Not in a supernatural way, but by a great observing and perceiving capability. I can make you adore me, trust me, agree with me, feel pity for me, like me, here in this very thread. But I dont :P (I know I sounded a little creepy here)



marshall
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01 Sep 2009, 6:01 pm

decoder wrote:
marshall wrote:
I never said I hate you. I don't know you enough to hate you. I just said I feel contempt (not hatred) for people who's only purpose in life is to get the better of others. I can't control that feeling any more than you can control the things you feel. Also, being self-benefit oriented isn't something that bothers me as I think everyone is that way. Different people just use different means, even a feeling of pure altruism has a psychological benefit to those who experience it. It's the need to push others down to benefit yourself psychologically that I feel some contempt for. I'm not going to lie and say I don't just to spare your feelings. Since you're being completely open and honest I think I have the right to be as well.


Yea but as I said, your feelings doesnt add to the argument. Moreover I am open beacuse my experiences and feelings are related with the topic. I am aware that my ways are quite hostile.

I guess I just don't care about staying on topic. I have stream-of-consciousness style where I just bring up whatever comes to my mind. If something interesting comes up I like to add my comment. That's what the internet is for me, a place I can share my personal opinions. My primary intent wasn't to hurt your feelings.
Quote:
marshall wrote:
That might be true for a lot of people with AS and classical Autism but not everyone on the autism spectrum lacks the ability to read emotions. I've done some tests online that purported to measure how well I can read emotions and I got a score that was a bit higher than the NT average. Somehow that can't be the only thing missing or I'd be more socially functional than I am. For me a lot of it is motivation. I don't see the point in a lot of small-talk yet I can fairly easily tell what kind of mood someone is in by watching and listening.


While interacting with people, aspies focus only on the matter. They see it as a project or design or a problem to process, and they dont realize the human side of it. Reading emotions and focusing on the matter simultaneously is impossible for an aspie. Its not rythmical.

That's probably true but I tend to be silent the majority of the time in a conversation. When I'm not talking I'm very conscious of the mood someone around me is in. However, sometimes when I am talking someone's mood will distract me to the point where my verbal processing freezes up and I can't think of the words to say.

Quote:
marshall wrote:
Sociopaths tend to be much more assertive and proactive than I am in a way that's almost a polar opposite. From my knowledge they care very much about how they are perceived and like making some kind of impact on people even if it's superficial and false. I don't care at all about making a superficial impact on people. I want depth. I want to know the real person, not just a personality or object that's a tool I can use.


You are correct on that sociopaths care alot of their image on people. As narcissists they need attention, love, adoring, and as experimenters they need control. You need to have a good impression (most of the time friendly, trustworthy and wise) on someone to manipulate him/her.

You probably know about the mind tricks in star wars. This is what a sociopath does. They read and control minds. Not in a supernatural way, but by a great observing and perceiving capability. I can make you adore me, trust me, agree with me, feel pity for me, like me, here in this very thread. But I dont :P (I know I sounded a little creepy here)


But I would think for most aspies it doesn't even occur to them that they could control or manipulate other minds. Most focus on their own experiences too intensely to care or think along those lines. I suppose I could try to be deceptive and controlling if I really really felt like I needed to but I just don't for some reason. It's not even a moral objection that stops me. I just have no motive.

Probably the closest thing to manipulating people that ever happens to me is when I subconsciously try to blend in and act like what I believe certain people around me expect me be like. It's more from having a weak sense of identity though as I'm not sure what I'm trying to gain. I'm not confident enough to be my own person around people so imitate and the end result is people get a false impression of who I really am. To a degree my real self only exists in my mind. I view the world sort of like a video-camera would, observing and analyzing but not feeling like a true participant.