Autistic Girl Kicked out of Girl Scouts

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MissConstrue
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25 Nov 2008, 5:47 pm

I got one question autism or aspergers?

Anyway I feel sorry for that kid they should know better then again ignorance comes in many forms.

I never really had my moments then again, they never picked me for the basket ball team cos of my height... :(


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Mage
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25 Nov 2008, 6:45 pm

Am I the only one who noticed the 8-year-old girl was claimed to only weigh 30 pounds????? Either the mother is a liar, or that girl is severely underweight!

As for the actual story, what a private club does is their business. They've already been allowed to discriminate against gays, so why not autistics? It's their right though, every club has their rules for eligibility. I can't join the Freemasons because I'm female, you don't see me suing them.



philosopherBoi
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25 Nov 2008, 8:16 pm

Mage wrote:
Am I the only one who noticed the 8-year-old girl was claimed to only weigh 30 pounds????? Either the mother is a liar, or that girl is severely underweight!

As for the actual story, what a private club does is their business. They've already been allowed to discriminate against gays, so why not autistics? It's their right though, every club has their rules for eligibility. I can't join the Freemasons because I'm female, you don't see me suing them.



Perhaps she has an undiagnosed form of dwarfism, I know some dwarfs never weigh more than 30 pounds but I don't know..... :?: :?: :?:



gbollard
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25 Nov 2008, 8:32 pm

The scout leaders are all parents who devote their time without payment. They're not experts but they do have to report everything to the troop leader.

The troop leaders are often much older people, they're often quite set in their ways and very rule-bound.

We've found that getting the troop leaders to change is almost impossible.

The best solution was for my wife to become a Scout Leader herself. At least that way she can keep and eye on our sons and intervene before they have issues.



MissConstrue
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25 Nov 2008, 8:33 pm

Quote:
As for the actual story, what a private club does is their business. They've already been allowed to discriminate against gays, so why not autistics? It's their right though, every club has their rules for eligibility. I can't join the Freemasons because I'm female, you don't see me suing them.


QFT. Any club or privately owned organization can exclude a person or people for some personal dislike. It's not fair but it does happen more than often.


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Katie_WPG
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25 Nov 2008, 9:38 pm

MissConstrue wrote:
I got one question autism or aspergers?



The girl in the story clearly had LFA, which is why the troup leader didn't want her there, presumably. "Lack" of communication, and self-harming behaviour. Which is why I don't think Nan's advice works in this situation, despite the fact that I agree with Nan for AS/HF PDD-NOS/most HFA kids. A LFA child will never learn to live independantly anyways, so telling them to 'toughen up' doesn't work so well. But, parents of LFA children also have to accept that their child will not be able to do all of the things that "normal" children do.

It's just kind of sad that the "normal" group accepted her, but the "disabled" group shunned her.



CRACK
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25 Nov 2008, 9:39 pm

Mage wrote:
Am I the only one who noticed the 8-year-old girl was claimed to only weigh 30 pounds????? Either the mother is a liar, or that girl is severely underweight!


I noticed that too. Weird.

I don't blame the group for kicking her out, though. Nobody wants to deal with someone with unpredictable behavioral problems they can't understand. Autistics can behave very strangely and differently from one another that I don't think anyone, autistic or otherwise, can claim to be an "expert" on the subject.



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26 Nov 2008, 1:45 am

Perhaps a good solution to this, would be for the Girl Scouts to write a section in the manual they give out to volunteer Girl Scout leaders, about children who have Autism Spectrum Disorders. Like how to interact with kids on the spectrum for example. Then it would be like, they have the basic guidelines and if something goes wrong, there also can be a list of reasons decided upon by the Girl Scouts and perhaps parents of ASD kids on what would qualify for a child who has ASD, as a behavior that would get them kicked out.



MissConstrue
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26 Nov 2008, 1:56 am

Katie_WPG wrote:
MissConstrue wrote:
I got one question autism or aspergers?



The girl in the story clearly had LFA, which is why the troup leader didn't want her there, presumably. "Lack" of communication, and self-harming behaviour. Which is why I don't think Nan's advice works in this situation, despite the fact that I agree with Nan for AS/HF PDD-NOS/most HFA kids. A LFA child will never learn to live independantly anyways, so telling them to 'toughen up' doesn't work so well. But, parents of LFA children also have to accept that their child will not be able to do all of the things that "normal" children do.

It's just kind of sad that the "normal" group accepted her, but the "disabled" group shunned her.


OK, that makes more sense. I didn't know what they meant by her "having her moments" but if it was what I originally thought it was, I usually hear that with autistics. That's the only term I could think of but I guess LFA is better description.

Yeah..strange how it was reverse discrimination... :?


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26 Nov 2008, 2:00 am

MissConstrue wrote:
Katie_WPG wrote:
MissConstrue wrote:
I got one question autism or aspergers?



The girl in the story clearly had LFA, which is why the troup leader didn't want her there, presumably. "Lack" of communication, and self-harming behaviour. Which is why I don't think Nan's advice works in this situation, despite the fact that I agree with Nan for AS/HF PDD-NOS/most HFA kids. A LFA child will never learn to live independantly anyways, so telling them to 'toughen up' doesn't work so well. But, parents of LFA children also have to accept that their child will not be able to do all of the things that "normal" children do.

It's just kind of sad that the "normal" group accepted her, but the "disabled" group shunned her.


OK, that makes more sense. I didn't know what they meant by her "having her moments" but if it was what I originally thought it was, I usually hear that with autistics. That's the only term I could think of but I guess LFA is better description.

Yeah..strange how it was reverse discrimination... :?


It's ironic.



ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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26 Nov 2008, 10:50 am

IMO best future scenario for Magi would be her mother finding a troop with NT children who have been told beforehand about Magi and how they can work with her, etc. I think it would benefit her to be around NT children who know about her already.
I was high functioning and my mother had me around NT children constantly. The only problem was there wasn't enough supervision or counseling and all of it was thought to toughen me up because life wasn't always going to be easy for me. I disagree with that ideology.
However, I don't disagree with this girl getting beneficial experience with NT children who have been told beforehand how to interact with her, what to expect, etc, with guidance from parents.

Also, peoples, please do not overlook this part of the story:

Quote:
For two years, Magi Klages, despite having autism, thrived in the Girl Scouts -- an organization that pledges to "help people at all times" and to be "honest and fair, considerate and caring."


Magi was in the Girl Scouts for TWO YEARS before experiencing any difficulties.
Best wishes to Magi and her family and I hope this gets resolved soon and things go back to how they were for Magi.



Last edited by ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo on 26 Nov 2008, 1:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Mage
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26 Nov 2008, 10:55 am

If you watch the video in the link it's quite clear that she is low-functioning, and is completely non-verbal.



ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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26 Nov 2008, 11:08 am

Nan wrote:
Bummer, isn't it? People may not always like you. (The hard part for some folks is understanding that even if others understand you, they still may not like you.)

That's always a hard thing - as a parent of a spectrum kid and as someone on the spectrum I've seen it from both sides. At the risk of sounding particularly harsh, the world on the whole really doesn't give a damn about your "special needs." If you can fit in, you'll fit in. If you cannot, you will not. There will be some adults, and the occasional child, who will be warm and receptive to a child who is "not normal" - but they're few and far between, from my experience. There are a lot more who will play lip-service to the concept because it's socially the PC thing to do, but it's pretty much artificial and cannot be relied upon for any substantial support unless it serves their interests. The older the child, from my experience, the less empathetic reactions you'll encounter.

There are some very artificial settings (schools, for example) where there is a legislative mandate that says they have to "help" you fit in. They get funded to do that. Once there's not a carrot or a stick involved, a special needs kid is pretty much on their own "out there". Hence, my almost constant warning to parents to try to toughen their kids up at least a little. Rejection is real and it will happen, and if a child (any child, "special" or not) hasn't had to deal with it by the time they hit adolescence, the storm they'll then wander into will just shred them. It sucks, but that's life. It's hard enough being spectrum without wandering into that unawares. Prepare your kids. We can debate how "fair" (life? fair? surely you jest!), or "right" or what "ought to be" until we're all old and grey (ok, greyer). And guess what? :roll:


No offense, but you sound defeated. That's exactly why you need to go into advocate mode.
My mom is sorta like you. She advocates when it's easier but when it gets tough steps out of the game and gives up. That's a big mistake. You can work with people and get them to be more understanding if you pressure them. You can educate them. You do not have to be excluded, that's just a smoke screen.
All you have to do is ask.



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26 Nov 2008, 2:58 pm

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
Nan wrote:
Bummer, isn't it? People may not always like you. (The hard part for some folks is understanding that even if others understand you, they still may not like you.) That's always a hard thing - as a parent of a spectrum kid and as someone on the spectrum I've seen it from both sides. At the risk of sounding particularly harsh, the world on the whole really doesn't give a damn about your "special needs." If you can fit in, you'll fit in. If you cannot, you will not. There will be some adults, and the occasional child, who will be warm and receptive to a child who is "not normal" - but they're few and far between, from my experience. There are a lot more who will play lip-service to the concept because it's socially the PC thing to do, but it's pretty much artificial and cannot be relied upon for any substantial support unless it serves their interests. The older the child, from my experience, the less empathetic reactions you'll encounter. There are some very artificial settings (schools, for example) where there is a legislative mandate that says they have to "help" you fit in. They get funded to do that. Once there's not a carrot or a stick involved, a special needs kid is pretty much on their own "out there". Hence, my almost constant warning to parents to try to toughen their kids up at least a little. Rejection is real and it will happen, and if a child (any child, "special" or not) hasn't had to deal with it by the time they hit adolescence, the storm they'll then wander into will just shred them. It sucks, but that's life. It's hard enough being spectrum without wandering into that unawares. Prepare your kids. We can debate how "fair" (life? fair? surely you jest!), or "right" or what "ought to be" until we're all old and grey (ok, greyer). And guess what? :roll:


No offense, but you sound defeated. That's exactly why you need to go into advocate mode.
My mom is sorta like you. She advocates when it's easier but when it gets tough steps out of the game and gives up. That's a big mistake. You can work with people and get them to be more understanding if you pressure them. You can educate them. You do not have to be excluded, that's just a smoke screen.
All you have to do is ask.




Actually, I consider myself more of a realist. There are only so many hours in they day, so much money in the bank account, so many things you can juggle at one time.

Let me give you a little background, in no logical chronological order. I've fought for over 50 years, raised an Aspie child as a single parent. I put myself through school after being homeless (while raising said child) up to and just short of a PhD with no social support network, working part-time, going to school full time, and being a parent full time. In the BK (before kid) days I was the first woman in my part of the state (a large state) to be hired as a lineman - had to fight like hell for that, and deal with the daily "they can make me hire a woman, they can't make me work her" attitudes. I was the first kid to push for early admission to a community college when High School wasn't serving my purposes - which brought lots of "why are you going to college? You're just going to end up wasting it all by getting married and staying home with the kids, anyway". In high school (and earlier) I pushed to be the first girl allowed in a number of previously "male only" classes and programs. I was the first woman in a number of professional positions in private industry at a time when we were "expected to stay home where we belonged." On top of that, I was Aspie. I know way more about fighting, and how to apportion out effort, than you can possibly imagine. :wink:

Given that, I stand by my advice. If you have no other obligations whatsoever - if you are not working a 40 or 50 or 60 hour week, not commuting several hours a day, not taking care of a home and family, and possibly a significant other; if you have appropriate fiscal resources; if your health allows; if you decide to make that your absolute top priority, then yeah, you can always fight for that one cause. But I'll tell you from experience, if you become obsessed with that one thing, it will color your entire life and there are other things in life that are equally, if not more, important.

And the results you want will not always be forthcoming. Oh, I agree, it's lovely to say that "education" - "if they just understand" will change all. But it won't, really. In some cases, you betcha. But, quite frankly, there are lots of people who really don't give a damn about why we are as we are. Pamphlets and books, and made for tv movies created by well meaning people are wasted on them. People can understand you, know you, and still not like you. That's life. My advice is that if you're going to be functional enough to survive, you'd better toughen up and learn how to pick your battles. Walk away from those who won't accept you instead of spending precious time and energy trying to convince them that you're ok. I mean, really, at the end of it, what's the purpose - who, exactly, are you trying to convince that you're ok?

If we're talking LFA, of course - if we're talking someone who's not ever going to survive on their own, that's a different story entirely. If we're talking "can make it, through alternative routes" then I strongly suggest working on the alternative strategies. Because the world is not going to make way for you. It doesn't give a damn.



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26 Nov 2008, 4:00 pm

Well, I don't know about "the world" but for two years Magi was part of a girl scout troop where she "thrived" and was transferred to another troop with children she wasn't used to.
While your view (Nan) might be how you feel and what works for you, it isn't necessarily true for everyone. If you don't want to make the effort, don't.
As for Magi's parents, they should keep on until they find another troop for their daughter.
Perhaps professionals have advised Magi's parents Magi would benefit from spending a small amount of time each week with NT kids in a controlled setting, the kind of setting organizations like Girl Scouts can provide. Where else can her parents find such an opportunity than such organizations? They provide a valuable service to society.



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26 Nov 2008, 5:18 pm

When I use the phrase "toughen them up", I'm not refering to giving up on life. I'm refering to being able to cope with the same expectations that "normal" people are held to. In this case though, it doesn't work. No matter how much you try and treat a severely disabled person as an "equal", they'll never be able to live without assistance. So telling them to "toughen up, and cope" is cruel.

But if someone is capable of achieving higher education and living independantly, then is it really in their best interest for their parents to constantly shelter them?

"They'll be bullied in regular education, better put them in special ed."
"Higher education and getting a job will be too hard for them, better set them up with welfare."
"Why should I teach them how to cook and do laundry? They'll end up in a group home anyways."

And yes, I HAVE met parents of AS people who are exactly like this. The adults with AS that I've met who didn't have parents like this are able to function. The ones who do have parents like this are not able to function.