Page 6 of 7 [ 109 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next


Are you in favour of the death penalty?
Yes in all cases of murder 9%  9%  [ 5 ]
Yes but only in brutal murder cases 11%  11%  [ 6 ]
Yes but only if a murder is pre-meditated 5%  5%  [ 3 ]
Hang em all, don't need any expensive prisons then 9%  9%  [ 5 ]
No because sometimes the innocent are killed 14%  14%  [ 8 ]
Never. There is no place for it in a civilised society 44%  44%  [ 25 ]
Other? Explain. 9%  9%  [ 5 ]
Total votes : 57

slowmutant
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 13 Feb 2008
Age: 44
Gender: Male
Posts: 8,430
Location: Ontario, Canada

05 Feb 2009, 6:34 am

greenblue wrote:
anna-banana wrote:
just some good old fashioned vengance.

Old fashioned vengance leads to wrongful convictions, so no.


If CP were about vengeance, it would not be nearly as systematic or methodical as it currently is. State execution is a science. Mob justice is pretty sloppy by comparison.



Dussel
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 19 Jan 2009
Age: 60
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,788
Location: London (UK)

05 Feb 2009, 8:33 am

slowmutant wrote:
greenblue wrote:
anna-banana wrote:
just some good old fashioned vengance.

Old fashioned vengance leads to wrongful convictions, so no.


If CP were about vengeance, it would not be nearly as systematic or methodical as it currently is. State execution is a science.


A science? You do not need a lot of "science" to kill someone - since millennia there a lot of well proven methods to do so. Even the deadly injection is not really "high technology" - and in my opinion it is even via the current method quite dump and could be done better and cheaper (eg. 150 mg is given as the lethal amount of morphine, so put 5000 mg into the veins and he/she will be dead certainly and will also have no pain).



anna-banana
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 30 Aug 2008
Age: 41
Gender: Female
Posts: 5,682
Location: Europe

05 Feb 2009, 9:50 am

greenblue wrote:
anna-banana wrote:
just some good old fashioned vengance.

Old fashioned vengance leads to wrongful convictions, so no.


who's talking about convictions? the state should not be the one who executes the vengance, that one I agree with.


_________________
not a bug - a feature.


MrGerbz
Emu Egg
Emu Egg

User avatar

Joined: 26 Jan 2009
Age: 37
Gender: Male
Posts: 7

07 Feb 2009, 12:02 am

slowmutant wrote:
I am for the death penalty, but with provisions.

1) It must be a heinous crime that shocks the conscience.
2) The accused displays no remorse.
3) The accused is able to distinguish right from wrong.


This. However, I'd also add that there should be as much be tests as possible, to prove the suspect is the actual killer. Also, these tests need to be checked by unbiased qualified people, who know nothing about the case.

For the people saying the Death Penalty (like I described it together with Slowmutant) shouldn't belong in a civilized society, do you realize it's probably more civil than a life in prison? That's like psychological torture, which lasts until they die.



Orwell
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 8 Aug 2007
Age: 34
Gender: Male
Posts: 12,518
Location: Room 101

07 Feb 2009, 12:30 am

MrGerbz wrote:
For the people saying the Death Penalty (like I described it together with Slowmutant) shouldn't belong in a civilized society, do you realize it's probably more civil than a life in prison? That's like psychological torture, which lasts until they die.

Then the prison system needs reform. That's not an excuse to end a human life.


_________________
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH


MrGerbz
Emu Egg
Emu Egg

User avatar

Joined: 26 Jan 2009
Age: 37
Gender: Male
Posts: 7

07 Feb 2009, 1:21 am

Orwell wrote:
MrGerbz wrote:
For the people saying the Death Penalty (like I described it together with Slowmutant) shouldn't belong in a civilized society, do you realize it's probably more civil than a life in prison? That's like psychological torture, which lasts until they die.

Then the prison system needs reform. That's not an excuse to end a human life.


Taking away someone's freedom IS taking someone's life.

Oh and sure, they could put several billions of money in the prison system, to give those people a good life. But honestly, would you rather have those billions spent on prisoners, or on research into things like cancer?



DentArthurDent
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Jul 2008
Age: 59
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,884
Location: Victoria, Australia

07 Feb 2009, 5:50 am

MrGerbz wrote:

Oh and sure, they could put several billions of money in the prison system, to give those people a good life. But honestly, would you rather have those billions spent on prisoners, or on research into things like cancer?


If that was a true statement ie that we have a choice between decent prison conditions and the search for cancer I would still go for the decent prison conditions. Prison should be reserved only for those that cannot live safely in mainstream society. So many influences contrive together to cause someone to rape, murder, torture etc that I often consider the phrase 'there but for the grace of god there go I' of course it has nothing to do with god but the sentiment is the same, if things in my life had gone a little differently who knows it may have been me on the TV.

Recently we had a father throw his 4 year old off a bridge 60 metres high, was he evil? I don't think so, after the act he drove to the family court and begged the security guards to take his other 2 children off him, when arrested he was a blubbering mess. This man cracked, we may never know why. I feel pity for all involved including the father, who knows why he cracked and who knows whether given the right circumstances if we would commit the same act.

The death penalty is wrong, hardship in prison is wrong, imprisoning those that can live a constructive life within free society is wrong.

Our present system of justice is centuries old, it has always had poor results. Inhumane treatment of people who for whatever reason have committed atrocities has a negative effect upon society. Yes we need to be protected from these people, but we also need compassion for them as well, we only get one life and theirs is a mess, they did not ask for the convergence of events that led them to prison.

I am not a Christian but I love the message in the bible of the stoning that Jesus stops, telling those involved that only if they are without sin have they the right to cast a stone.

Oh and by the way if the western world was not carrying out a vicious and murderous war against Iraq there would be plenty of money to fix the prison system, pump billions into cancer research, bail out the finance sector and still be in surplus


_________________
"I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance anyday"
Douglas Adams

"Religion is the impotence of the human mind to deal with occurrences it cannot understand" Karl Marx


PLA
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 10 May 2007
Age: 34
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,929
Location: Sweden

07 Feb 2009, 5:51 am

MrGerbz wrote:
Taking away someone's freedom IS taking someone's life.

Yes, but only some, as opposed to all.

I take a stance of merely observing this debate, as I have very little, if anything, to contribute.


_________________
I can make a statement true by placing it first in this signature.

"Everyone loves the dolphin. A bitter shark - emerging from it's cold depths - doesn't stand a chance." This is hyperbol.

"Run, Jump, Fall, Limp off, Try Harder."


Dussel
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 19 Jan 2009
Age: 60
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,788
Location: London (UK)

07 Feb 2009, 9:14 am

MrGerbz wrote:
Orwell wrote:
MrGerbz wrote:
For the people saying the Death Penalty (like I described it together with Slowmutant) shouldn't belong in a civilized society, do you realize it's probably more civil than a life in prison? That's like psychological torture, which lasts until they die.

Then the prison system needs reform. That's not an excuse to end a human life.


Taking away someone's freedom IS taking someone's life.

Oh and sure, they could put several billions of money in the prison system, to give those people a good life. But honestly, would you rather have those billions spent on prisoners, or on research into things like cancer?


I do not see the point of an extensive prison system at all: There are a few criminals which do by their very nature constitute a real danger for society and which must locked away for the rest of their live. But those are a rare minority within the prison population.

I think the whole concept of "punishment" and "justice" is outdated, illogical and inhuman, nothing else than an institutionalized system of revenge. The idea that there is something like "justice" in punishment I never understood. Crime is a problem and it had to be solved in a way that is cost effective and works. Prisons do neither.

An approach of a "Repair Unit for harmful Behaviour for Others and Society" would be much better.



Orwell
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 8 Aug 2007
Age: 34
Gender: Male
Posts: 12,518
Location: Room 101

07 Feb 2009, 9:17 am

MrGerbz wrote:
Orwell wrote:
MrGerbz wrote:
For the people saying the Death Penalty (like I described it together with Slowmutant) shouldn't belong in a civilized society, do you realize it's probably more civil than a life in prison? That's like psychological torture, which lasts until they die.

Then the prison system needs reform. That's not an excuse to end a human life.


Taking away someone's freedom IS taking someone's life.

Oh and sure, they could put several billions of money in the prison system, to give those people a good life. But honestly, would you rather have those billions spent on prisoners, or on research into things like cancer?

I would rather replace the primitive and ineffective vengeance-based system of punitive "justice" with attempts to actually rehabilitate criminals so they can be productive members of society.

But that's just me. :roll:


_________________
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH


MrGerbz
Emu Egg
Emu Egg

User avatar

Joined: 26 Jan 2009
Age: 37
Gender: Male
Posts: 7

07 Feb 2009, 1:29 pm

I seem to have been misunderstood.

People seem to think I prefer the Death Penalty, over rehabilitation.

If people *can* be rehabilitated, then of course, I prefer that. The case with the father that was described, I don't think he should get the death penalty at all.

Also, Death Penalty for vengeance is wrong. The Death Penalty should only be done in rare cases, the most extreme ones, the people who cannot be rehabilitated, and who would be a danger to society, and even to the people in prison.



DentArthurDent
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Jul 2008
Age: 59
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,884
Location: Victoria, Australia

07 Feb 2009, 5:46 pm

Orwell wrote:
I would rather replace the primitive and ineffective vengeance-based system of punitive "justice" with attempts to actually rehabilitate criminals so they can be productive members of society.

But that's just me. :roll:


But that could lead to a compassionate society, which is prepared to take an objective view on its behaviour towards its less fortunate members, extrapolate this further and you could get a society that is repulsed by the very thought of war 8O



Bloody heck Orwell that's dangerous and subversive thinking :wink:


_________________
"I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance anyday"
Douglas Adams

"Religion is the impotence of the human mind to deal with occurrences it cannot understand" Karl Marx


Orwell
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 8 Aug 2007
Age: 34
Gender: Male
Posts: 12,518
Location: Room 101

07 Feb 2009, 6:17 pm

DentArthurDent wrote:
Bloody heck Orwell that's dangerous and subversive thinking :wink:

Hm, I must be a thought-criminal.


_________________
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH


DentArthurDent
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Jul 2008
Age: 59
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,884
Location: Victoria, Australia

07 Feb 2009, 6:46 pm

Orwell wrote:
DentArthurDent wrote:
Bloody heck Orwell that's dangerous and subversive thinking :wink:

Hm, I must be a thought-criminal.


No you are just a christian that actually identifies with, and attempts live by the teachings of your boss 8O

Mmmmm that probably does make you a thought criminal, best watch out the inquisition will be coming for you :lol:


_________________
"I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance anyday"
Douglas Adams

"Religion is the impotence of the human mind to deal with occurrences it cannot understand" Karl Marx


ruveyn
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Age: 87
Gender: Male
Posts: 31,502
Location: New Jersey

08 Feb 2009, 8:46 am

Orwell wrote:
I would rather replace the primitive and ineffective vengeance-based system of punitive "justice" with attempts to actually rehabilitate criminals so they can be productive members of society.

But that's just me.


Rehabilitation is difficult for most and impossible for some. Rather than punish I prefer to isolate and separate the most vicious evil doers from the rest of society. I think the French had the right idea with Devil's Island. Basically it was a nearly escape proof prison, but the prisoners were not put to death. They were forced to live apart from normal society, the source of their victims. In the exceptional case rehabilitation might be tried before giving up.

The death penalty is a trivial reduction of isolation. Death is the ultimate isolation from the living. Unfortunately it is irreversible so that errors cannot be undone.

ruveyn



Zonta
Hummingbird
Hummingbird

User avatar

Joined: 8 Feb 2009
Age: 51
Gender: Female
Posts: 22
Location: North Carolina

13 Feb 2009, 10:29 pm

I am against the death penalty in all cases. As far as I am concerned, killing one another moves us in the wrong direction as a species, from a spiritual perspective. Not to mention the fact that our society has not proven it is equipped to consistently and fairly determine who is deserving of CP, and who is not.

As has been mentioned earlier, the experience of imprisonment is a far harsher punishment, particularly for the most violent offenders, than death could ever be. It was stated in an earlier post that "Death is the ultimate isolation from the living". That may be true, but if your concern is the worst punishment, the most retribution sought against an offender, then put that individual into solitary confinement 24 hours a day for the rest of their lives. And then proceed to watch as the very essence of what humanity that they have left erodes from their conciousness. The confinement inflicted upon violent offenders is a form of torture, in my opinion. Even if you drug them to the gills, death would be a release from this existance, and therefore a relief.

As for rehab for lesser criminals, wouldn't that be a utopian ideal? I am all for it. However, when I begin to think of the practical considerations behind instituting a system-wide infrastructure to support rehab, it boggles my mind. These people would have to undergo intensive interventions, all within the context of living amidst a closed-off, violent subculture. It would take a tremendous amount of money and resources to enact such a change. And then, the rehab would have to yield real results - - criminals becoming useful and safe contributors to society.

And I think this option really speaks to the underlying values in our society. We are so very far from embracing any kind of sympathetic treatment of criminals in this way. The reality of the situation is that society just wants them out of the way, by and large. Our actions in the entire justice system reflect that.