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Henriksson
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13 Mar 2009, 5:54 pm

It's the 7th century. The Arabs are jealous that the Europeans have Christianity, the Jews have Judaism, the Persians have Zoroastrianism, but the Arabs have jack sh1t. Muhammed, an illiterate merchant, shows up and claims to have been visited by an angel called Gabriel, though he has no proof of this.

The Arab civilization converts to Islam and finally has the cultural (or national, if you prefer that) unity to spread their civilization further. Well, you know the rest, the Arabian empire eventually enters a Golden Age and almost engulfs Europe, reaching as far as India. It makes sure to make Islam the leading religion in the territories it conquers.

But was Muhammed divinely inspired? Highly dubious. Islam became widespread because of military conquests, not because of it's validity (none at all, that is), and has since been spread memetically.

Thus, I can deduce that anyone who claims to be a muslim is most certainly a muslim due to indoctrination.


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ZEGH8578
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13 Mar 2009, 7:02 pm

Henriksson wrote:
It's the 7th century. The Arabs are jealous that the Europeans have Christianity, the Jews have Judaism, the Persians have Zoroastrianism, but the Arabs have jack sh1t. Muhammed, an illiterate merchant, shows up and claims to have been visited by an angel called Gabriel, though he has no proof of this.

The Arab civilization converts to Islam and finally has the cultural (or national, if you prefer that) unity to spread their civilization further. Well, you know the rest, the Arabian empire eventually enters a Golden Age and almost engulfs Europe, reaching as far as India. It makes sure to make Islam the leading religion in the territories it conquers.

But was Muhammed divinely inspired? Highly dubious. Islam became widespread because of military conquests, not because of it's validity (none at all, that is), and has since been spread memetically.

Thus, I can deduce that anyone who claims to be a muslim is most certainly a muslim due to indoctrination.


"jack sh1t" is probably a bit harsh. they were also christians and jews, and had strange and funky mytholigies, many known still in popular culture, such as bottle-genies and flying carpets and stuff.

i dont dissagree with you, but i dont understand the point of this post.
are christians christian because of more divine inspiration than muslims today?
christianity is as "fake" as islam, especially with the enormous weight of pro-christian bias even in science, such as repeated attempts at proving christ as a historical person, even national geographic docus telling people to shut up and accept jesus christ as saviour and prophet and stuff.

even buddhists are messed in the head, still following some ancient ancient orangutan-cult (my personal theory ;] orange, asia, man-sitting-in-forest-at-peace-with-himself = buddhism. )

hindus do the whole 8-arms, elephant-head s**t. i know its charming, and stuff, but i cant respect it any more than islam or christianity or judaism.



Henriksson
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13 Mar 2009, 7:08 pm

ZEGH8578 wrote:
Henriksson wrote:
It's the 7th century. The Arabs are jealous that the Europeans have Christianity, the Jews have Judaism, the Persians have Zoroastrianism, but the Arabs have jack sh1t. Muhammed, an illiterate merchant, shows up and claims to have been visited by an angel called Gabriel, though he has no proof of this.

The Arab civilization converts to Islam and finally has the cultural (or national, if you prefer that) unity to spread their civilization further. Well, you know the rest, the Arabian empire eventually enters a Golden Age and almost engulfs Europe, reaching as far as India. It makes sure to make Islam the leading religion in the territories it conquers.

But was Muhammed divinely inspired? Highly dubious. Islam became widespread because of military conquests, not because of it's validity (none at all, that is), and has since been spread memetically.

Thus, I can deduce that anyone who claims to be a muslim is most certainly a muslim due to indoctrination.


"jack sh1t" is probably a bit harsh. they were also christians and jews, and had strange and funky mytholigies, many known still in popular culture, such as bottle-genies and flying carpets and stuff.

i dont dissagree with you, but i dont understand the point of this post.
are christians christian because of more divine inspiration than muslims today?
christianity is as "fake" as islam, especially with the enormous weight of pro-christian bias even in science, such as repeated attempts at proving christ as a historical person, even national geographic docus telling people to shut up and accept jesus christ as saviour and prophet and stuff.

even buddhists are messed in the head, still following some ancient ancient orangutan-cult (my personal theory ;] orange, asia, man-sitting-in-forest-at-peace-with-himself = buddhism. )

hindus do the whole 8-arms, elephant-head sh**. i know its charming, and stuff, but i cant respect it any more than islam or christianity or judaism.

I think you can find that major religions have sprung up more as a political tool. If the emperor happened to dislike Christianity, how could Christianity ever become big? Europe would probably be under some paganistic religion instead. Everything makes sense in hindsight.


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ZEGH8578
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13 Mar 2009, 7:14 pm

Henriksson wrote:
I think you can find that major religions have sprung up more as a political tool. If the emperor happened to dislike Christianity, how could Christianity ever become big? Europe would probably be under some paganistic religion instead. Everything makes sense in hindsight.


i aggree. i just thought you were making a bigger point :D sorry :D

one idea i find fascinating is cultural relation TO religions.
for example, roman pagans had a certain way to worship. when christianity came, they transferred these ways onto a new religion, and this became very close to the roman-based catholocism today.

scandinavians and germanics on the other hand, had a much more casual relation to their gods, and so when catolicism arrived, it became uncompatible culturally, and protestantism developed - a version of christianity, where the worshippers can continue with a more casual attitude, also retaining words,

we also use "jul" instead of a more christ-related word, for xmas. what do germans call it btw? i have no clue..

(the whole topic about the origins of christmas slips right into this topic too, but i cant be arsed to go into it right now :D )

or mexicans, combining catholicism with their death-cults.

(btw, whats your fascination w tannu tuva! man would i like to see people tilt cop-cars and set trash cans on fire over tuvan freedom! FREEDOOOOOM!! !! !)



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13 Mar 2009, 7:50 pm

Religion is just another form of politics - faith-based politics, but politics nonetheless. And as such, it is just one more form of socially-sanctioned control of a minority ruling class over the majority serfdom.

Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Confucianism, Hinduism ... it's all just various means of using mythology to exploit the fear and ignorance of the masses in order to keep them producing goods and services, and fighting wars for the ruling classes.


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Dussel
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13 Mar 2009, 10:11 pm

ZEGH8578 wrote:
scandinavians and germanics on the other hand, had a much more casual relation to their gods, and so when catolicism arrived, it became uncompatible culturally, and protestantism developed - a version of christianity, where the worshippers can continue with a more casual attitude, also retaining words,


Aehhh ... between the reformation and the (sometime forceful) Christianity were something between 1200 and 600 years. Some parts in Germany in the north stayed, even after the reformation catholic, whilst some in south, with a much lesser Germanic influence became protestant.

Also: The Protestants were often much less causal than the Catholics. There was much more fun, even for the normal people, in some of the Catholic regions than in the strict Protestant ones. The Catholic church developed a complex system of double standard, in which you can sin nearly as-much-as you like, if you do accept this is a sin and confess. In this respect the catholic system of "lesser sins" versus "main sins" was (is?) very helpful.



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13 Mar 2009, 10:30 pm

My ancestry is strongly Catholic German. Fleeing the Germanic states of Elsaß and Bavaria around 1780m they colonized in south Russia. For 100 years they maintained their faith there. With nationalism rising in Russia, left for the US and Canada.

Another 100 years later, I am among the first generation that is not deeply religious.

Whats the point?

My dad uses a phrase... he says "for Friggs sake..."

Isnt that interesting?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frigg

I am watching carefully for other aspects of paganism.


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ZEGH8578
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13 Mar 2009, 10:56 pm

Dussel wrote:
ZEGH8578 wrote:
scandinavians and germanics on the other hand, had a much more casual relation to their gods, and so when catolicism arrived, it became uncompatible culturally, and protestantism developed - a version of christianity, where the worshippers can continue with a more casual attitude, also retaining words,


Aehhh ... between the reformation and the (sometime forceful) Christianity were something between 1200 and 600 years. Some parts in Germany in the north stayed, even after the reformation catholic, whilst some in south, with a much lesser Germanic influence became protestant.

Also: The Protestants were often much less causal than the Catholics. There was much more fun, even for the normal people, in some of the Catholic regions than in the strict Protestant ones. The Catholic church developed a complex system of double standard, in which you can sin nearly as-much-as you like, if you do accept this is a sin and confess. In this respect the catholic system of "lesser sins" versus "main sins" was (is?) very helpful.


yeah. i broke it down to a very simplified general idea.

i forget im on a forum riddled with all kinds of fact-fanatics :D



Dussel
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14 Mar 2009, 1:22 pm

Fuzzy wrote:
My ancestry is strongly Catholic German. Fleeing the Germanic states of Elsaß and Bavaria around 1780m they colonized in south Russia. For 100 years they maintained their faith there. With nationalism rising in Russia, left for the US and Canada.

Another 100 years later, I am among the first generation that is not deeply religious.

Whats the point?

My dad uses a phrase... he says "for Friggs sake..."


It is more likely that he picked this up from Scandinavian people or from from North Germany. In the Elsass region the Germanic gods were replaced by the Roman gods after Julius Caesar and than the region became Christian in early 4th century among the rest of the Roman Empire. In today's Bavaria the situation is more complex, but the last remains of pagan religion were suppressed by Charlemagne.



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14 Mar 2009, 1:45 pm

Henriksson wrote:
Thus, I can deduce that anyone who claims to be a muslim is most certainly a muslim due to indoctrination.


That is true of all religions. Muslims beget more Muslims, Christians beget more Christians. And each claims theirs is the one true religion. :roll:

Worse than this there are flavours of each religion and each of these claims to be the "truest" version.

People are so gullible. Religions are for the weak minded - it gives them a sense of order in the universe and as Fnord points out, the ruling classes are keen to maintain said order.


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Fuzzy
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14 Mar 2009, 4:47 pm

Dussel wrote:
Fuzzy wrote:
My ancestry is strongly Catholic German. Fleeing the Germanic states of Elsaß and Bavaria around 1780m they colonized in south Russia. For 100 years they maintained their faith there. With nationalism rising in Russia, left for the US and Canada.

Another 100 years later, I am among the first generation that is not deeply religious.

Whats the point?

My dad uses a phrase... he says "for Friggs sake..."


It is more likely that he picked this up from Scandinavian people or from from North Germany. In the Elsass region the Germanic gods were replaced by the Roman gods after Julius Caesar and than the region became Christian in early 4th century among the rest of the Roman Empire. In today's Bavaria the situation is more complex, but the last remains of pagan religion were suppressed by Charlemagne.


Thats true, and I have no idea how long my ancestors were in that area anyway. I know that I feel a strong kinship with Danes for instance, but that may simply be because their practical approach matches that of aspies.

As well, my grandmother comes from Bremen.


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EnglishLulu
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14 Mar 2009, 7:52 pm

What is it with the islamophobia and muslim-bashing on WP at the moment?

If this kind of stuff was being directed towards any other group, based on race/ethnicity or gender or sexuality, it would be abhorrent, so why is this kind of stuff 'acceptable' here? :?

I, for one, find a lot of the comments about Islam and muslims to be quite ignorant and prejudice and verging on hate speech.



ZEGH8578
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14 Mar 2009, 7:56 pm

EnglishLulu wrote:
What is it with the islamophobia and muslim-bashing on WP at the moment?

If this kind of stuff was being directed towards any other group, based on race/ethnicity or gender or sexuality, it would be abhorrent, so why is this kind of stuff 'acceptable' here? :?

I, for one, find a lot of the comments about Islam and muslims to be quite ignorant and prejudice and verging on hate speech.


dont forget the counter-arguments also present at this site :]

you should try the "liveleak" forum, makes these little political ramblings seem like light musings ;)


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Henriksson
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14 Mar 2009, 8:02 pm

EnglishLulu wrote:
What is it with the islamophobia and muslim-bashing on WP at the moment?

If this kind of stuff was being directed towards any other group, based on race/ethnicity or gender or sexuality, it would be abhorrent, so why is this kind of stuff 'acceptable' here? :?
I, for one, find a lot of the comments about Islam and muslims to be quite ignorant and prejudice and verging on hate speech.

It's this kind of thinking that makes me so irritated! Religion shouldn't be your sacred cow! Be prepared to face arguments and cold facts, not putting fingers in your ears and shout "lalala"!

How dare you compare your silly beliefs to ethnicity and sexuality!


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14 Mar 2009, 8:19 pm

EnglishLulu wrote:
What is it with the islamophobia and muslim-bashing on WP at the moment?

If this kind of stuff was being directed towards any other group, based on race/ethnicity or gender or sexuality, it would be abhorrent, so why is this kind of stuff 'acceptable' here? :?

I, for one, find a lot of the comments about Islam and muslims to be quite ignorant and prejudice and verging on hate speech.

I agree, it is probably excessive. Should be more Christian-bashing to balance things out. Maybe some threads making fun of self-proclaimed rationalists.



Dussel
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14 Mar 2009, 8:25 pm

EnglishLulu wrote:
What is it with the islamophobia and muslim-bashing on WP at the moment?

If this kind of stuff was being directed towards any other group, based on race/ethnicity or gender or sexuality, it would be abhorrent, so why is this kind of stuff 'acceptable' here? :?

I, for one, find a lot of the comments about Islam and muslims to be quite ignorant and prejudice and verging on hate speech.


The main difference is that you can't choose your race or sexuality, you are born with it and you can't change - religion is a matter of choosing a believe system.

Also: Being a Caucasian white gay man does also not plement any statements regarding the origin of the universe or how society shall be run or otherwise. Following a specific religion does. It has direct impact into the political sphere.

Comparing the critic on religion with hate speech on race etc. is therefore not correct.



Last edited by Dussel on 14 Mar 2009, 8:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.