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Morgana
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15 Mar 2009, 11:27 am

What problems do AS women have in relationships? I am really interested in this question. I have tried reading about this subject, but the books seem to be mostly geared towards men. There are different dynamics in relationships between AS men/NT women as opposed to AS women/NT men. For instance, we all take take things literally, but I think the dynamics are probably magnified in relationships where the women have AS, as NT men seem to expect that women can "read" them- (and become very disappointed if the woman cannot). Likewise, the same with empathy. (I have had partners tell me that I obviously didn´t love them, because I couldn´t read their minds). I have found that throughout society, people expect women to be "good socially", so the pressures, one would assume, are greater for women.

Another thing I learned slowly, through time and experience, is that there seems to be a tacit rule that men are supposed to oversee the sexual side of the relationship, whereas women oversee the emotional. I never knew this, I assumed both would be equal. When I got "too involved" in sexual matters, the men seemed offended and upset. Likewise, I think if I really was expected to oversee the emotional aspect, I didn´t really "do my part". I always thought that each person should do their own emotional work. In many of my relationships, the men´s emotional issues seemed to be bubbling under the surface, until they finally exploded, while I watched, confused. In any case, this idea of male/sexual, female/emotional seems to be confirmed when looking at the mainstream literature on male/female relationships. (Not that I want to follow this idea, I don´t think I can. I´m just mentioning what seems to be a common expectation of people).

So please, write your experiences! I am very interested in AS/NT relationships, although I would also be curious to hear about AS/AS- (I´m thinking maybe I should try that, if I can figure out how...) Lesbians may also write their experiences, I´m mainly interested in all experiences of women on the spectrum.


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15 Mar 2009, 11:52 am

I'm in an AS/AS relationship. Here are the two things we argue about:

(1) He or I being too involved in special interests. He or I will shut each other out and give the other no attention during these times.

(2) I act like a "know it all" and won't listen to his point of view.. or the other way around. He does it too.

The other thing we used to have problems with is both also being bipolar and him having an addiction to prescription meds, but he has a handle on that now.

Overall, we have an incredible relationship and we are both satisfied with it very much. We naturally understand each other's AS, we communicate well and we have a good sex life, overall. We balance out each other's needs. He's afraid to cook, so I cook for him. I get lost, so he escorts me to my doctor's appointments.


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greenlandgem
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15 Mar 2009, 12:37 pm

Morgana... Um, are you my long-lost twin?! I've noticed many of your posts on this site and you seem to feel/experience very similar things to me - it's a little scary!! I can definitely identify with your male/sexual vs female/emotional theory, and can say that my experiences do mesh with that.

I have been told that I "just don't seem to really care" about the guy I was with (not true) and ultimately am usually left because I simply cannot anticipate their reactions and am incapable of reading their moods. Now, those two things I can kind of understand because, well, I am awful at reading body language - but I was also once given this amazing excuse for marching: even when I knew the guy was upset, he found it frustrating that I did not know intuitively WHY or WHAT he was upset about. My approach was always to give him space, and I thought if it was something I was doing he would say something about it (this is what I do when irritated) - turns out: WRONG! I was supposed to know the cause of the anger without any explanation, and act on it without a verbal impetus.

I have no idea if NT women can sense these things - sometimes they were obvious in retrospect but at the time I hadn't a clue what the guy was upset about. This has happened enough that I know it isn't just a fluke - sadly, it happens repeatedly despite my always warning the guy in the beginning: "I cannot read your mind; no really, I have a thing, I can't read body language and stuff; you've GOT to actually TELL me what's up." Somehow, this warning is never taken seriously, and is conveniently forgotten at the grand finale.

That seems to be my biggest problem - whether it's AS or just me or every woman on the planet, I don't know.



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15 Mar 2009, 12:58 pm

My experience as an AS woman is I was expected to be the emotional expressive one but also be the caregiver. Since I believe everyone should take care of themselves as in do their own dishes and laundry that doesn't go over well. Neither does being expected to cook for someone else then them bitching about the food not turning out how they like it. Plus women are expected to deal with all the social issues like making plans for outings or family visits. Apparently we are all expected to desire to dress like Barbie and make a big fuss about makeup and fashion clothes and when you don't that seems to disappoint as its not being feminine enough.

My other observations is we get taken advantage of if we aren't real careful by those that rape or like to abuse women. Or those that want to steal money or use someone else to pay their debt. Those type of losers appear to be able to detect Aspies as we are more gullible. Because of all of this I am happy just being single.



poopylungstuffing
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15 Mar 2009, 1:19 pm

Firstly i am a weirdo because I am poly...and secondly even though I am "assessed" as an aspie, I may be an atypical aspie, if I am an aspie at all...
I have attempted to highlight the core elements that I think have been the troublesome parts of my relationships.


In the past I have had different issues in each of my relationships...for some reason, I can't think of one obvious problem that has repeated itself over and over....maybe for me it has been difficulty processing empathy, and emotional immaturity...

My first LTR happened when I was an emotionally immature-for-my-age teenager, and many of my problems stemmed from my not knowing that I had any rights as a person...I was afraid to communicate and i felt like I could not trust my own thoughts because I was a bad and defective person. He was a NT..older than me...a Catholic Atheist Libertarian..very hard-headed...

The first time I fell in love was in my early 20's..The worst problem with that relationship was that I was in love and being in love made me crazy...or maybe I woulda been crazy anyway...I think I was going throught my "early adult psychosis"...also, I didn't really realize how different I was from other people...and I didn't understand how someone could want to have sex with you but not be in a relationship with you...so I guess..chalk that down as emotional immaturity..lack of theory of mind..I was too crazy..etc..

The problems from my next relationship stemmed from the fact that I was naive and he was a scumbag lying sleazo girl-chaser...an NPD...the sort of evil opposite of an Aspie in some ways...in other ways, the evil cousin..
We are still friends...he is the drummer in my band...

the NEXT relationship was awesome...we were opposites who really balanced each other out, and we got along swimmingly.. I have never met a person who could better handle my meltdowns...every day for us was a silly fun adventure...the most mundane activities were like a trip to the amusement park (as in fun..not wrought with headaches and sensory overload)
He was kind of like an Aspie but very charismatic and with good social skills....We each needed our own space that we could keep in our own style. He was very meticulous and symmetrical and I was the opposite. The thing that killed this relationship...aside from his evil mom who hated me..was my black and white thinking...I still had feelings for the guy who I first fell in love with and thought that since I had these feelings, I could not be in a relationship with him...even though I loved him and he was my best friend...BUT..we were such good friends...we stayed that way for years after we broke up...He was often there for me when I had nobody else.... Now he is married with a kid. I have not heard from him in a long time. :(

Then there came Flakey...you must pardon me..we are fresh from a relationship fight/meltdown...
We have been together for 6 years...
AS?/ADDer=me....ADD/AS?=him...We have had problems with mutual emotional immaturity...oh....rrrrarrgh....um...mutual executive dysfunction.....the fact that he LIKES being co-dependant....black and white thinking on my part...he wanted to be poly or at least get to sleep with other people once in a while...I did not understand poly..nor did I want to be poly and it caused the eventual breakdown of our relationship and I moved to another state.....then we got back together months later, but he ended up having an affair........I decided that the only workable way that I could manage to stay with him, because we run businesses together, is if we were poly, but on my terms...a year after the affair, he started messing around again...and then he actually went on vacation with his "former" mistress, and while he was gone I kindled a relationship with my very good friend who I was encouraged to hang out with. We have been together for 8 months.

BUT now that we are poly, he wants more control over me than I am willing to give him.
Last night I told him I am not his wife or his girlfriend, I am his partner. We are friends... We share a bed most of the time..we share a life...and I have a boyfriend who I love and Flakey has his own sexual autonomy.


Then there are my troubles with my other boyfriend....lots of Aspie-style misunderstanding, and i can take his crankiness literally....but he really does care for me...he is just a rigid, sensory-overloaded cross dressing Mr. Spock... :wink: I wish I could see him more without it causing me and Flakey to fight. I wish I could be affectionate to him when he is around because I don't get to see him very often...without it causing trouble... :roll:



15 Mar 2009, 2:10 pm

The problem I have had in relationships was, flexibility and the give and take, anxiety, not knowing when my ex was going to head somewhere and it leave me anxious because I didn't know when to expect it, giving love and affection felt real hard because I didn't find it natural. Call myself lazy for that. Being literal, and not thinking about them good enough. I did a crappy job doing it unless it was my ex with the problem. I was also correcting his thoughts and opinions so to him I always had to be right and argued when he get something wrong.

I had a ton loads of misunderstandings with my first ex because we were both literal. He had some AS characteristics too. What I failed to pick up from the start was he was a leech. My parents already knew he was no good and he was a leech and my dad tried to tell me but I wouldn't believe him. My ex also played mind games and I didn't know it. It took me till my birthday to finally connect the dots I was not that important to him because he forgot about my birthday. I have heard his perspective about our relationship after the break up. He wrote me a long message and made himself sound like the victim and me the as*hole. One of my online friends told me that happens to lot of failed relationships where two people make each other sound bad. Doesn't mean they are both lying. It's both their own perspective. He also claims he did show his feelings but I just didn't pick up on it. I don't know if that is one of his lies or the truth. He was so full of it, so full of BS, lies, excuses, I don't know when he is telling the truth. I haven't spoken to him since February 2007 and he definitely told me another BS story. What gave it away was he told in in December he used 75 bucks of his money from his bank and bailed his cousin out of jail, then he tells me on AIM he spent 99 dollars on this thing (I forget what item he got) at a pawn shop and sold it on ebay for 300 and put a lot of stamps on the package and put it in his mail box. Now he had 150 dollars in his bank account. How do I know? Because when his bank statement came in the mail, I opened it and it said how much is in there and I asked him online where he got the extra money and he said it was from his bank. Oops his math was off so he gave himself away, lying he was. Even my own mother agrees he was lying. If he said he earned more money from his parents by helping out around the home, then I would have believed him. At least I can detect some lying in people. All they have to do is make it an obvious lie and I just happened to know how much my ex had in his bank account when he closed it so that's how I knew he was lying. If I didn't know how much he had in there, I would have believed him. Anyone would have. I also had to go around and ask if it's possible to mail a big item without taking it to the post office and they said just as long as you have enough stamps on it to pay for the weight, then yeah.


Now this can happen to any women, my ex had me convinced I was low functioning and couldn't take care of myself well and said all this other crap because he was so paranoid about what people thought. Any woman can get convinced they are no good by their men after being told something over and over, they start believing it after a while.



Anemone
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15 Mar 2009, 3:11 pm

Well, my big problem now is not having a relationship.

In the past, my problem has mostly been feeling like roadkill around non-autistic men, and feeling overwhelmed by the neediness of possibly-autistic men.

I'm not interested in getting involved with someone else on the spectrum, because I can't even take care of myself, but there's a type of man (possibly on the spectrum) who seems to want me to be energetic enough for both of us. I can't handle that.

As for non-autistic men, I've tended to get involved with unconventional men who don't come across as threatening. But the problem with that is that they were never people I could lean on either. And what I really needed was to be with someone who could do some of the emotional/relationship work, too. There are men who could. I've known some. I just haven't been with any of them.

The main problem with men in general is not being able to keep up, and feeling like roadkill around anyone who is attracted to me, unless I wall them out. No fun either way.



AnnaLemma
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15 Mar 2009, 3:32 pm

A comment I got from two guys I dated in college was "I can't tell what you're thinking". This was said as a complaint and the first time I heard it, it blindsided me and I didn't manage to get any kind of reply out. The second time I was told this I said "Well, should you be able to? How about just asking me?" But apparently this issue was a deal-killer. They also didn't think I showed proper enthusiasm. I thought this was about the most bizarre thing I ever heard. Apparently this was a big factor in relationships that never got off the ground. I never imagined it, couldn't explain it.

My husband was different as he never expressed any problem with these things. He is ok with my asking him for clarification on his thoughts on things, which many people just aren't, since my TOM is undeveloped (I guess). I am very lucky, as romantic relationships were rarely worth the trouble before I met him, and if he died I would be very content without one. I would have to be very sure I could absolutely count on my partner and have a certain degree of trust issues.


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15 Mar 2009, 6:00 pm

My first contact with another wasn't until adulthood (there'd been no dating or hand-holding earlier). I started out clueless and asexual, and didn't grasp he was interested in me until he held my hand. When he kissed me for the first time, I spaced out and went completely numb. It remained this way for months and he admitted it was like trying to date a teenager. At the beginning, I informed him I simply could not grasp the concept that another could exist in my life.

I got used, ignored and stood up constantly; I was always there for him, but he wasn't there for me, even in hospital. However, he felt more for me than I for him. He commented that, apart from not opening up, I was perfect. We would sit in silence for hours; I was frozen and mute. One day he asked me to write a letter describing how I felt. I took it literally and wrote an essay on how the meaning of life for me is learning. I wrote about myself, not understanding he'd wanted me to write about my feelings for him. I was very thoughtful in many ways and once gave him a card with a poem about how I could not say the words, but did care. He shrugged dismissively after reading it and said nothing.

I once taped our conversation to analyse the relationship. Listening to the tape, I would hesitate after each question, answer mechanically and literally, not reciprocate, and be very anxious, subdued and confused. He would be talking about marriage and kids, and I'd repeat mechanically that they weren't for me--a concept he'd never grasp--and we'd go in circles.

Others followed. The nicer ones would ignore me and not demand anything physically. The nastier ones would continually patronize. One was a bully who would sometimes try to force my clothes off, force me into social situations, and force me in various other ways. He would say I was selfish for not pleasuring him. I was expected to mindread and to know how he wanted things done in several areas (e.g., vacuuming), and he'd accuse me of deliberately using my intelligence to appear stupid and inept.

Once he realised the extent of my difficulties (due to undiagnosed AS), he became terrified at the responsibility of being my partner. This was the opposite to another, who, after his initial fears, took on the father role almost completely and adored every quirk. I really cared for them all, mostly putting them first, but did not reciprocate in the expected way and would be accused of living in my own world. I also would not play games to keep them interested, and so most rapidly fell out of love with me. With most, I remember constantly doing psychological analysis, trying to figure out what was going on in the relationships, and yet they never seemed to never confront their own issues, simply projecting them onto others.

All but 3 were extremely stingy, and one would not feed me while staying as a guest at his place. It didn't occur to me to ask for food, so I'd starve all day. I was a student and had no income at that time. One evening, when he went grocery shopping and left me alone, I went through the kitchen cupboards eating the leftovers in cereal boxes etc. A few months later, he became more generous and would allow me to eat proper meals with his housemates.

I was not in love in these relationships, knowing on some level they were unsuitable. However, they taught me a lot about the wider world.



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15 Mar 2009, 6:12 pm

I find relationships very difficult and Im very ambivalent about closeness with someone else and relationships make me feel more vulnerable than I am comfortable with.

I had a lot of problems in the past by being over whelmed by boyfriends, who want to spend too much time with me and I would end up dumping them so that I could fit more of my interests in. I found it was the little things that made it untollerable, like them moving my things around or I wanted to do something else and they were there.

From this I have decided that I would never live with someone and only ever have a relationship where we met up do things (and have sex :wink: ) but never again will I live with anyone *shudders*.

Like most aspie women I have had trouble with being taken advantage of and abused due to my naivety and low self esteem. I found it hard to trust my judgement about what is ok and what is not and found it was easy for men to tell me it was my fault for things as I had heard that my whole ife. After a sexual assualt a few years ago, which really upset me, Ive toughened my self up somewhat (psychologically) and really worked on my boundaries and now I feel more confident not to get myself into dangerous situations and to stand up for my self and needs more. I think violent and abusive experiences really teaches us what we can stand and what we cant and helps us know ourselves more.

I get very lonely at times but I think I am probably still not ready to be close to anyone as I have a lot of resistance and anxiety whenever I try to start any relationships off. I like to be good at stuff and I hate being bad at relationships and i find it very hard to try doing something that Im so bad at.

I just feel so uncomfortable around people and so uncomfortable around feelings, I dont like feeling love and I dont like feeling out of control and I dont like feeling that someone else has control over my happiness or emotions.

But I also do want that closeness with someone. Relationships are just such a difficult painfiul thing. I think love is such a powerful feeling that it is so painful as well. I think perhaps relationships are quite a masochistic thing for an aspie.



AnnaLemma
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15 Mar 2009, 7:53 pm

lotusblossom wrote:
I found it was the little things that made it untollerable, like them moving my things around or I wanted to do something else and they were there.


The first few years after I married are quite funny now, but they were an enormous adjustment for me. As an only child I had never lived with someone before who would eat my food and use my scissors and I freaked out on a regular basis until my husband got into a routine to ask permission before using certain of my "stuff". After 35 years, we still have his and hers peanut butter jars, and he knows that dire consequences will occur if he eats my ice cream (most of our food is "ours", but some is solely mine). I also have a hidden stash of good scissors. I refuse to start the training again with someone else.


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16 Mar 2009, 2:21 am

AnnaLemma wrote:
lotusblossom wrote:
I found it was the little things that made it untollerable, like them moving my things around or I wanted to do something else and they were there.


The first few years after I married are quite funny now, but they were an enormous adjustment for me. As an only child I had never lived with someone before who would eat my food and use my scissors and I freaked out on a regular basis until my husband got into a routine to ask permission before using certain of my "stuff". After 35 years, we still have his and hers peanut butter jars, and he knows that dire consequences will occur if he eats my ice cream (most of our food is "ours", but some is solely mine). I also have a hidden stash of good scissors. I refuse to start the training again with someone else.


well done on getting such an understanding man :D :D :D

Unfortunately I happened to continually pick men who thought my attitude was ridiculous and how dare I ask them not to do anything. I had one especially obnoxious boyfriend who would do anything I did not like just to spite me and show he was boss! grrr :x



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17 Mar 2009, 6:04 am

All the books and articles do seem to focus on AS men and NT women don't they? I mean, I know that's probably the more common combination but still. Ok experiences... personally I've had two boyfriends. The first was when I was 18 and basically it wasn't that great. He got really upset at me, he used to get emotional and him getting emotional at me just disconnected my emotions. He wanted to understand me. He couldn't understand me. By the end I felt like our relationship was more like some sort of lab study where every conversation we had was just him asking me questions to work out how I thought about every little detail. He didn't understand when I put my uni work ahead of him. To me, I knew that however much I enjoyed being with him it was a temporary arrangement, uni means more. It's my work... hopefully it'll become my life. He wanted to be my first priority and he just wasn't.
Things with my current boyfriend are just lovely. We were good friends beforehand so we'd actually had rants about what was wrong with relationships and things. He knew what I could be like, but then he's a bit odd too. He's not an aspie but honestly not convinced you could describe him as neurotypical either. He's just a weirdy. I think one of the best things about this is that we started out saying "ok let's just mess about and see where things go" so it wasn't serious or pressured or anything. It was just messing about. He understands completely how I feel about work. I know he'd choose his work over me and that's fine. Sometimes he'll spend a week or two not really socialising because he wants to get work done. That's fine because I can be the same. He lets me have as much freedom as I need to be alone, yet somehow I find that because I know I have that freedom I need to use it less. The fact that I know I can turn around at any point and say that I'm feeling antisocial means that I'm less likely to because I know I never have to fight with him for it. We just get eachother I guess.



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17 Mar 2009, 2:57 pm

Thank you all for your posts! I just wrote a long post in reply, where I answered many of you personally and explained how my experiences were similar, only to have that post lost because Wrong Planet was swamped with too many people. :evil: This has happened to me far too many times lately! I spend ages writing a long post (I´m rather slow and methodical about these things), only to have it disappear because the website is temporarily down. I try to save them, but I must be doing something wrong. I´m sorry, I just don´t have the time or the energy to re-write my (lost) post.

For this reason, I´m going to be taking a break from Wrong Planet. The frustration is too much to bear- (I just had a huge meltdown just now). I get too caught up in and obsessed with things, and maybe I need to focus on other things now. There are other things that I just don´t get done because I´m too obsessed with Wrong Planet. But I don´t have time to write posts and have them constantly get lost. So, maybe it´s a sign that I need to do other things that I´ve let slide lately.

Schade, because I really enjoyed this discussion! Maybe when I come back sometime, I´ll renew it. I am really interested in this subject. I hope sometime Wrong Planet won´t be so swamped with people, or maybe they´ll figure out how to accommodate the crowd.

Well...bye for now.

I thank you all for your answers. They have been very interesting to read.


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18 Mar 2009, 5:58 am

That's annoying, losing your post. Maybe you could re-write it when you return. I enjoy your posts.



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19 Mar 2009, 11:49 pm

yes. me too. look forward to you coming back on line later.
:)