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Morgana
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07 Jun 2009, 9:59 am

ouinon wrote:

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Apologies for the disjointed rambling; the entries in this thread are filled with so much careful thought and the benefit of so much experience that my posts seem like the little squeaky voice in a conversation that pipes out pointlessly, "Me too!" every now and again.

No, they're great. I was feeling like you, still do to some extent, because what people were saying was so powerful, and exact, and expressed subtle, almost unconscious experiences of things, that what I said seemed so fumbling too.
.


Wow, this is how you guys feel too? This is exactly how I feel! After spending hours last night on my post, typing it and retyping it, I felt frustrated that it didn´t quite express exactly what I wanted to say. I almost didn´t post it as I was worried that it was "lame". (I feel this way about a lot of my posts, by the way, and the day after I think "Oh God, what did I write?") Words can be so limiting: at least, that´s how I feel anyway. By the way, at the meetup in Avignon, I felt like my conversation was more halting and stilted than most people´s- (and for some people, English wasn´t even their native language). When I speak German, my conversation is even MORE halting and stilted, and literal, blah blah and so forth. I can write better than I speak, but it takes so long! Anyway, I´m really glad someone found my post helpful. But, I´m basically like you 2; I look at everybody´s else´s posts and am amazed at how accurate and verbally proficient you all are!


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outlier
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07 Jun 2009, 10:04 am

Ouinon, I too think there are some strange modern myths surrounding sex.
In a way, I think I was more stubborn and assertive than most regarding sex, because I would refuse to engage in acts I really did not want to, no matter the consequences for the relationship.

I also relate to Morgana's "bowling pin" description of people (which also generates an amusing mental image :) ). Without getting to know them, they are mostly physical shells, and I cannot be attracted by appearances alone.

millie wrote:
We home in on details and then construct our ideas of people? Well, rather than speak for others, this is what i do to survive the world of people.


I tend to see people in bits and have difficulty considering the whole. For instance, in the past, when someone hurt me, I was incapable of shifting my attention to the positive aspects about them and would see them as all bad. This has changed in the last year or so, and I constantly remind myself to consider the wider context.


Off topic, to update on the situation I mentioned concerning my career on page 12: I received the outcome of the long, drawn-out complaints procedures and am being granted everything I requested. Those higher up appear to be taking my side on the matter. This will enable me to get a few papers published in journals over the next year or so, increasing my chances of getting a job sometime in the future (if I choose to remain in the field, that is). For now, I have to figure out a way to obtain an income while writing. The news hasn't sunk in yet, but I am celebrating with wine!



Morgana
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07 Jun 2009, 10:34 am

ouinon wrote:
How long have you been excluding gluten now? Have you noticed a difference in your sexual experience since cutting it out?

.


I´ve been gluten free I think nearing 5 years now? I can´t say I´ve noticed it affecting my sex drive or my recognition of sexual feeling, though I have noticed it affecting other elements of my life- (and body). :)

I think I was born with a relatively high sex drive, and, as was mentioned earlier on this thread, I was aware of my sexuality at a very young age. At first, it was private and didn´t involve any other person. In fact, I never associated that with the feelings of sex or coupling. (We decided that this may be quite common among autistic people). As I grew older, my sexuality did involve other people, but in the form of fantasies as millie wrote about. I had many relationships (and sex!) in my mind. (One of the things I liked, and related to in the film "BenX"). When I finally had my first sexual experience, at age 22, I did it mainly because I felt embarrassed that I was still a virgin. :oops: I felt nothing, it lasted about 2 seconds- (I remember thinking literally "That was it?"), and it was incredibly disappointing in comparison to my fantasies. Since then, I notice my feelings of desire and my enjoyment or lack of enjoyment of sex have a LOT to do with psychology; in other words, rather than just being hormonal or biological, I believe that sexual feeling starts "in the head"- (which confirms that gluten could very well be a contributing factor, as gluten affects what´s happening in the brain too. However, I think exactly how gluten affects a person varies from individual to individual). I strongly suspect that 2 factors that affected my (lack of) sexual desire were 1) social anxiety and the inability to pick up or "feel" another person´s feelings, and 2) difficult experiences (including rejection). I noticed a HUGE lack of desire for awhile when I discovered just how conniving and selfish the rest of the human race can be. I think love, romantic feelings and the ability to enjoy sex and feel the feelings that go with it have a lot to do with fantasy and a certain innocence; in other words, I think it´s easier when you believe that people are innately "good". Of course, as greenlandgem suggested, NT women might be different in this regard- (I, too, have noticed how easily NT women can "bounce back", and how readily they become involved, as if they enjoy it! I also think this must take an extreme amount of self confidence, which I obviously don´t have; I usually feel shattered at the ends of relationships). I strongly suspect that bad experiences and rejections affected my desire at times, because it seemed directly related (timing wise) to events that were happening in my life, as well as thoughts in my head.

Another reason, too, is the possibility that the wisdom of the body was trying to alert me to the fact that this was not the right person, or that this was not the right time.


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Morgana
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07 Jun 2009, 10:40 am

outlier wrote:


Off topic, to update on the situation I mentioned concerning my career on page 12: I received the outcome of the long, drawn-out complaints procedures and am being granted everything I requested. Those higher up appear to be taking my side on the matter. This will enable me to get a few papers published in journals over the next year or so, increasing my chances of getting a job sometime in the future (if I choose to remain in the field, that is). For now, I have to figure out a way to obtain an income while writing. The news hasn't sunk in yet, but I am celebrating with wine!


:cheers: :cheers: :cheers: Yeah!! !

Congratulations. I think I´ll celebrate with some wine too. :lol:


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greenlandgem
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07 Jun 2009, 1:04 pm

I have FINALLY remembered a topic I've been meaning to bring up all week but which completely leaves my head whenever I log in!

This is related to fantasies, which is a subject Morgana has touched on recently and others have commented on, and also with the actual physical enjoyment of sex itself: basically, the head/body dichotomy mentioned by Morgana above.

I've described how I feel so detached during sex, as if it was happening to someone else. Don't get me wrong, when I truly like the person and trust them I do enjoy it... but more because I'm pleasing them, not because I'm actually pleased myself. And sometimes it feels nice. But that's just it: it feels "nice". Not amazing, not mind-blowing, not orgasmic or any of those things that sex is "supposed" to feel. :) While it might be "nice", I know that even if I had hours and hours to go (hilariously unrealistic concept), I would never reach orgasm.

However! Occasionally, as it probably does for most people, thoughts of sex pop into my head unbidden. Often this is in completely non-sexual environments, and I'm not even running through a fantasy (which I rarely, rarely do). When this happens, I can come far nearer to climax simply by my mental state (no hands! :D ) than I ever am when in bed with a man. It is completely bizarre, but in keeping with a trend I have noticed in myself: the idea of sex is far, far more arousing than actual sex. Does anyone else experience this?



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07 Jun 2009, 1:55 pm

Quote:
Morgana wrote:
outlier wrote:


Off topic, to update on the situation I mentioned concerning my career on page 12: I received the outcome of the long, drawn-out complaints procedures and am being granted everything I requested. Those higher up appear to be taking my side on the matter. This will enable me to get a few papers published in journals over the next year or so, increasing my chances of getting a job sometime in the future (if I choose to remain in the field, that is). For now, I have to figure out a way to obtain an income while writing. The news hasn't sunk in yet, but I am celebrating with wine!


:cheers: :cheers: :cheers: Yeah!! !

Congratulations. I think I´ll celebrate with some wine too. :lol:


:cheers: :cheers: :cheers: also.

4.54 am and i do not drink, so please imbibe on my behalf. I shall toast the Outlier's news with my morning coffee.



ouinon
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07 Jun 2009, 3:14 pm

greenlandgem wrote:
I've described how I feel so detached during sex, as if it was happening to someone else. I do enjoy it... but more because I'm pleasing them, not because I'm actually pleased myself. And sometimes it feels nice. But that's just it: it feels "nice". Not amazing, not mind-blowing, not orgasmic or any of those things that sex is "supposed" to feel. :) While it might be "nice", I know that even if I had hours and hours to go (hilariously unrealistic concept), I would never reach orgasm.
The idea of sex is far, far more arousing than actual sex. Does anyone else experience this?

I used to. That is one of the things which seemed to be always true. Sex in real life, as opposed to fantasy, was never as interesting, exciting, etc etc etc, ( apart from, oddly enough, a couple of occasions exactly like you describe, generally when walking, and in a rush too!! !, or another couple of times when a sexual dynamic pushed all the right purely mental buttons, when I was almost overwhelmed by ... ). Otherwise it was never even remotely like, ... until I cut out gluten, and almost immediately I discovered that sometimes sex was as totally amazing and mmmmmmmm in real life as in books and daydreams. I am still sort of reeling from realising this. It's too weird.

.



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07 Jun 2009, 3:15 pm

First off, outlier: congratulations!! !! Woo hoo!! !!

outlier wrote:
For clarification, by want, do you mean physically/emotionally crave/desire, rather than logically?

Excellent question. Hmmm.

I have definitely had experiences in the past (and like ouinon, I've had lots of sexual encounters, more even than she) where a really intense, exciting conversation made me feel a desire to be sexual with my conversational partner. In fact, I think most of my sexual experiences with "new" people (as opposed to long-term relationships) stem from that feeling. That was an emotional desire. I think. Not so much a physical one, anyway; as for logical, well, I didn't stop to analyze it. :-)

Like many of the women in this thread, most of those sexual experiences were pretty crappy, not satisfying for me, and not at all a fitting climax (a ha ha ha) to the conversational headiness (usually talk of math or physics or philosophy) that made me want them in the first place. Every once in a while I got lucky, though, maybe because of hormones or a guy who took his time or both.

With my husband, my sexual desire stems from completely different sources. Simplest is the monthly hormonal cocktail that makes me physically desire sex (and that makes sexual touch not only bearable, but enjoyable). There's also an occasional emotional source, when I look at him with our kids or have some other thought about who he is and how much I love him and why, and I feel a fleeting desire to hold him and kiss him and be as close to him as one person can be to another, which takes on sexual imagery but rarely leads to me jumping his bones ;-); it's fleeting and I know that by the time I act on it (which is hard enough for me to do), that emotional nudge will be gone and I'll regret being sexually engaged.

The last source is ... logical, or emotional? It's guilt. When we haven't had sex for three or four weeks and I know he'd be pretty psyched if we did, I'll do it. He never puts any pressure on me, and as I mentioned (I think that was here), if he sees I can't get into it, he stops. (The man is truly a saint, a gift, a treasure....he never huffs about it or looks hurt or *anything*. And honestly, he'd rather *I* come than *he* come.)

On that last note (his wanting me to reach orgasm), I do sometimes say "just forget about me coming, because it's not worth the effort to me right now. Just have a nice time yourself, honey" ;-).

It took us a long time to reach this point, lots of talking through rougher times, and I feel sort of charmed to have even gotten here...he's a unique and splendid man. On talking about sex--I always felt I owed it to him to talk about when things weren't working for me sexually, because he is so invested in my enjoying it and it being mutual. I would have felt dishonest not telling him something didn't work for me, or faking any part of anything.

(I've only faked an orgasm once ever in my life, and that was with a boyfriend who just wouldn't listen when I told him to stop trying to make me come....and then I told him afterward I'd faked. Which was maybe not the best idea, in retrospect, but hey, I'm nothing if I'm not honest. ;-) )


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08 Jun 2009, 12:54 pm

Just have to say how much I've benefitted from reading this thread. I'm so happy for you all that you've been able to have experiences and relationships and dates and all the things that people go through, and I wish I had some stories too, but all I've known is just the endless universal simmering sexual harassment - I could never tell the difference between them. I could only tell the guys who liked me because they didn't want to be with me, so that was the end of that every time.

I'm at the point now where I think I'm just a spiritual experiment and having the body is an accident.



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09 Jun 2009, 3:22 pm

greenlandgem wrote:

I've described how I feel so detached during sex, as if it was happening to someone else. Don't get me wrong, when I truly like the person and trust them I do enjoy it... but more because I'm pleasing them, not because I'm actually pleased myself.


This is something I´ve been meaning to answer, but I´ve been so bogged down by work lately that I haven´t been getting online much. (My diminutive presence on Wrong Planet has been dwindling lately...aside from the fact that when I do get online, it´s often VERY slow).

ANYWAY- yes, this is something I experienced for much of my life. To be honest, I wonder if many women, even NTs, experience this kind of thing. I think that, in terms of women´s sexuality, we live in a very strange and unhealthy culture. I think the sexuality of women is not very well understood, frankly, and we are pressured to live out many roles which seem to conflict, or go against our biology. My reason for thinking this, as well as believing that this is a problem for all women, is based mostly on books I´ve read, as well as a (very few) conversations about sex I´ve had with NT women- (by the way, "Women´s Studies" used to be a special interest of mine). What I´ve gleaned though my studying is that probably most NT women don´t experience sex in this "intense" way, the way it´s portrayed in movies, but that, instead, they get a stronger sense of a romantic feeling of "connection". As that is something that is more difficult for someone on the spectrum to feel- (as well as our tendency to not always know, immediately, WHAT we are feeling), this is a perfect setup for these feelings of detachment you describe. It just sounds like a man´s sexuality might be a little more focused and straightforward than a woman´s. In addition to that, when you describe "being in your head", I know that if I am feeling bombarded by a lot of different sensory issues, all coming in together in many different channels, I can feel quite distracted. So, basically, I think we have a few added challenges to an already complicated sexuality!

I wanted to touch on the subject of mixed messages. I remember when I was younger, I was constantly told that I should not do anything I did not want to do, and I should not let a man touch me if I did not want to. My parents were very open about sex and educated me well, which was very good. But on the other hand, when I was a teenager I was constantly told- (by my parents, as well as others)- that I was aloof, cold, that I was a "heartbreaker", and my parents even kept me away from boys at times- (long story, which I won´t get into)- because they thought I was going to hurt them! Talk about mixed messages: on the one hand, I was told I was allowed to choose, on the other hand, I was told I was "cold" and it was implied there was something wrong with me, I was too picky. As I said, the conflicting messages we receive as women are confusing enough, and for black and white thinkers, even more difficult: is it "this"? Or is it "that"? (By the way, my theory is that my apparent "coldness" was due to the fact that I didn´t pick up on signals that were sent, therefore I didn´t answer them one way or the other, etc. I was basically oblivious. I think this may have been true for much of my so-called "romantic life", I think many things just passed me by). For these reasons, and because of these mixed messages, I sometimes later threw myself into sexual experiences with no regard for my own feelings. It seemed strange that I just wasn´t really interested in anybody, so there were times when I thought more about the man´s passion than my own; I even sometimes hoped, on a few occasions, that he would have enough passion for the both of us! Needless to say, that doesn´t work.

As you are younger than I, I wanted to confirm what ouinon said, that it can get better with age. Hang in there...many AS people are "late bloomers". We have to bumble and stumble around a bit. I finally learned, after many difficult relationships, that if anyone is going to love me, it will have to be myself. Once I learned how to accept myself and put my own feelings up front, not always do what society deems the "right" thing, it got better. This is very hard for us, as we live in a world that rubs against us, so to speak. It may take time for you to figure out how to do this. In my case, a bit of stumbling, bumbling about and throwing myself into things basically taught me a few things about life, though I had to learn the hard way!

One more point I wanted to touch upon; I´ve been reading a lot about non-verbal communication and how NTs experience the world at the moment- (that and AS are my special interests right now). It seems that NTs have a kind of radar where they can pick up and "feel" each others feelings, even when they are total strangers. This is something I can´t fathom, if I am understanding it correctly; but, when you think about it, that alone would drastically change the dynamic of attraction. This would explain why many of us would need the intellectual connection as a starting point, or why it may take longer for us to feel a connection to begin with. From what I´ve observed, it seems to be the complete opposite in the NT world, where sex has to occur BEFORE friendship, and once you hit the "friendship" level, you are no longer considered to be romantic material.


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09 Jun 2009, 3:34 pm

Morgana wrote:
I wanted to confirm what ouinon said, that it can get better with age.

I hope that I would never say anything so nauseating! :wink:

I don't remember saying, in fact am quite sure that I didn't say, that anything got better with age, ( and will be horrified if you can quote me saying so ).

However I did say that my sexual experience improved dramatically/changed significantly after cutting out gluten.

.



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09 Jun 2009, 3:49 pm

Though it does. (Get better with age.) Probably through a better understanding of yourself, and if you're lucky, a good long-term relationship where you can get comfortable enough to be yourself and to totally trust the other person sexually (among other things).

But also, biologically speaking, something seems to happen when you hit your thirties that makes sex and orgasm much better. :-) Don't have any idea what it is, but it happened for me.


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09 Jun 2009, 5:09 pm

Morgana wrote:
But on the other hand, when I was a teenager I was constantly told- (by my parents, as well as others)- that I was aloof, cold, that I was a "heartbreaker", and my parents even kept me away from boys at times- (long story, which I won´t get into)- because they thought I was going to hurt them!


My mother once told me she was worried I was going to hurt someone I was with! It was during my first encounter, and I was the one being hurt. Utterly clueless. I was the young, naive AS daughter; he was the several years older, experienced stranger!

I was oblivious to my rights and how I should not accept being disrespected; my parents never warned me about such things. I've only really grasped this concept about people in general in the last year or so (another skill honed somewhat by persevering through complaints procedures!) I think I can sense disrespect acutely now. There are multiple signs I've become aware of. I was never taught such skills growing up, nor anything about relationships (and a host of other life skills).



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09 Jun 2009, 5:19 pm

ouinon wrote:
Morgana wrote:
I wanted to confirm what ouinon said, that it can get better with age.

I hope that I would never say anything so nauseating! :wink:

I don't remember saying, in fact am quite sure that I didn't say, that anything got better with age, ( and will be horrified if you can quote me saying so ).

However I did say that my sexual experience improved dramatically/changed significantly after cutting out gluten.

.


Sorry, I take it back! :oops:


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Morgana
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09 Jun 2009, 5:21 pm

Saja wrote:
Though it does. (Get better with age.) Probably through a better understanding of yourself


This is exactly what I meant! All of life is a learning process. I notice things can get much better through learning and understanding.


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09 Jun 2009, 5:26 pm

outlier wrote:
I think I can sense disrespect acutely now. There are multiple signs I've become aware of. I was never taught such skills growing up, nor anything about relationships (and a host of other life skills).


Yes, you´re right; it´s a shame we don´t learn these things! And we learn a host of other things that we don´t really need in life.


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