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Abstract_Logic
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23 May 2009, 8:04 am

Danielismyname wrote:
Abstract_Logic and Hala,

See my post.

To reiterate fact, an IQ of 75 or higher is the most common, which starts at below-average and works its way up to above-average. This is the normal continuum of intellectual functioning, and most with AS fall here (from below-average to above-average. MR isn't a part of the normal continuum).

My post contains a direct quote from the as current DSM-IV-TR that explicitly states an IQ of 50 to 60 is possible in rare cases in Asperger's Disorder.


If you have the link or page number and paragraph, I would like to know where in the DSM-IV-TR it explicitly states an IQ of 50 to 60 is possible in rare cases of Asperger's syndrome.

In certain cases where there is mild MR, they nevertheless exhibit no delay in general language or cognitive development, which essentially means they have an average-above average intelligence. Aspies and NTs alike are not perfectly balanced at the cognitive level. So, for them to have a diagnosis of Asperger's syndrome accompanied by mild MR, the MR must be so mild that it doesn't warrant a diagnosis of another Autistic condition.



Abstract_Logic
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23 May 2009, 8:14 am

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
Okay. Since the idea of Aspie elitists has been raised I will go on record by saying my IQ is 20. That is my official 1Q score. 20. It can get know hire. I never saw it get know hire than that. Honest. Know wonder I can't find a job!


You are clearly not severely ret*d. For you to say that is just plain absurd. For you to stoop so low as to become a troll of this board is beyond my comprehension.

I believe the correct answer to the original post has been already made clear enough.

I will forever fail to understand people who want to know the truth, yet they repeatedly try to deceive others by professing to "know the truth".

Hala and I have answered the original post with the most correct answers that exist. So I believe we're done here, as we have better things to do with our lives than to deal with the trivialities of lesser people: namely TROLLS and LIARS.



ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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23 May 2009, 8:19 am

A troll? Actually my life has been profoundly affected by AS. My entire life. I am not a troll. I actually have AS and it actually affects my life. I am not an elitist Aspie or whatever. Why is it people who actually have a disorder are refered to as "elitist Aspies' or trolls? I have noticed that on this forum. Those of us who actually have AS aren't very welcome here while people who do not seem that affected are.



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23 May 2009, 8:26 am

Does everyone know the criteria of MR? You can have an IQ of, say, 65 and have no MR and I have the impression many people don't know that.

Abstract_Logic wrote:
If you have the link or page number and paragraph, I would like to know where in the DSM-IV-TR it explicitly states an IQ of 50 to 60 is possible in rare cases of Asperger's syndrome.


You should buy the manual or borrow it. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0890420254/ref=s9_simx_gw_s0_p14_i1?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-1&pf_rd_r=04NX8HW38BE71KYQXHNQ&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=470938131&pf_rd_i=507846 Edit: I don't know your financial status but I deem that as painfully expensive. So I suggest getting a look at it or borrowing it.

I do wonder how anyone can speak about the details of the criteria of the DSM-IV-TR without even having read the or owning a copy of the relevant text/sections?


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Last edited by Sora on 23 May 2009, 8:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

buryuntime
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23 May 2009, 8:31 am

I hate the stereotype that all AS people have above average - genius IQ's. From the IQ thread, however, this seems to be the case unless everyone is exaggerating. :?

As for MR and AS, I would think it possible to have mild MR and still be AS.



ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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23 May 2009, 8:43 am

Instead of an arms race it becomes an IQ race. People keep trying to outdo each other and it becomes more and more incredulous. IQ is an overrated concept anyway and standard IQ tests are kinda meaningless.
My handwriting was atrocious until I got a few hundred pen pals and began writing them letters every single day. Within a week it was beautiful, full of whimsy and swirls like the Chesire Cat's tail. It's because I wanted it to be better, worked at it, and it got better. Why do people obsess on IQs?



Danielismyname
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23 May 2009, 8:44 am

Abstract_Logic wrote:
delay in general language or cognitive development, which essentially means they have an average-above average intelligence.


Ah, no, it means they score 50 to 60 on a standardized IQ test when they enter school (which is the mild range of MR). Google books should have it, and just go to the section on AS, and it'll say the exact same thing I did (as I took it from there).

Realistically, it'd be better to say that people with AS can be from below- to above-average and all in-between, with average being 100. Saying that it's average to above-average alludes to 100 or higher, when it's just as likely someone with AS will have 80 as they will have 120.



Abstract_Logic
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23 May 2009, 8:44 am

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
A troll? Actually my life has been profoundly affected by AS. My entire life. I am not a troll. I actually have AS and it actually affects my life. I am not an elitist Aspie or whatever. Why is it people who actually have a disorder are refered to as "elitist Aspies' or trolls? I have noticed that on this forum. Those of us who actually have AS aren't very welcome here while people who do not seem that affected are.


Ana, I'm sorry to have accused you of trolling. I do no agree with whatever IQ test you took. You are clearly high-functioning, which is why I doubt the sincerity of your claim that your IQ is 20.

I have been having a hard time believing that an IQ of 50-60 is possible in certain rare cases of AS. How is it possible to have an IQ of 50-60 and still have no language or cognitive delay? And if there is a language and/or cognitive delay, then how can the condition be labeled as AS?



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23 May 2009, 8:51 am

I might appear high functioning on here but I am clearly not IRL if you consider HF to mean holding down a job, supporting oneself, having a partner and friends...

Yeah, I function well in taking care of myself physically and have no problems there. I can clean, I can cook. I can look after myself in areas such as these. I do not need support when it comes to this.

However, I cannot find a job. I do not support myself. The AS reputation follows me around. I have trouble in the areas of jobs and being around others (like, taking college courses, partnerships and friendships) That's the side of AS that isn't very elite. I don't consider myself an elitist just an Aspie who has problems in Aspie affected areas of life.

It's okay Abstract_Logic, I know I might have appeared to be trolling but I really wasn't and my intent was not to harm but to make a statement about the irony of "elitist Aspies" when we are the ones who are pretty much on the bottom rung in the social heirarchy and do not possess the networking circumstance or skills to save ourselves.

Most of the time we are high functioning enough in certain areas of life so we don't really fit the "disability" criteria either and it's very hard to live on disability anyway because you don't get enough to really live on. Our situation is precarious.


:)



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23 May 2009, 9:14 am

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
I might appear high functioning on here but I am clearly not IRL if you consider HF to mean holding down a job, supporting oneself, having a partner and friends...

Yeah, I function well in taking care of myself physically and have no problems there. I can clean, I can cook. I can look after myself in areas such as these. I do not need support when it comes to this.

However, I cannot find a job. I do not support myself. The AS reputation follows me around. I have trouble in the areas of jobs and being around others (like, taking college courses, partnerships and friendships) That's the side of AS that isn't very elite. I don't consider myself an elitist just an Aspie who has problems in Aspie affected areas of life.

It's okay Abstract_Logic, I know I might have appeared to be trolling but I really wasn't and my intent was not to harm but to make a statement about the irony of "elitist Aspies" when we are the ones who are pretty much on the bottom rung in the social heirarchy and do not possess the networking circumstance or skills to save ourselves.

Most of the time we are high functioning enough in certain areas of life so we don't really fit the "disability" criteria either and it's very hard to live on disability anyway because you don't get enough to really live on. Our situation is precarious.


:)


Ana, I have the same exact problems you have. I cannot get a job, or cope well with taking college courses. I am on a very limited schedule at school along with the help I receive from the disabilities department at my college. I am receiving social security disability checks. I still live with my parents at 21 years old. I am by no means considered 'normal' in the social world. I can't handle a simple phone conversation. My life largely takes place here in the virtual world, where it is much easier for us Aspies to fulfill our human needs for social interaction. However, I have taken various IQ tests, and for each of them I scored above 132 (my highest was 160). So, according to certain professionals, I am what is considered a "genius".

The thing is, though, that IQ tests aren't particularly valid. And to predict whether someone will be successful in life based on an IQ test would be unscientific. So, too, would be to make a diagnosis based off an IQ test. So I think IQ and Asperger's syndrome should be inherently separate concepts, and the two should not merge with one another in arguments such as these. I have re-read Daniel's posts and I now understand how someone with a low "IQ" can be diagnosed with Asperger's syndrome.

Again, I apologize to have offended you, Ana. I hope someday that you will be able to live up to your true potential. I am not an Aspie elitist or anything like that. I was merely defending what I believed to be the truth. I am glad I followed through with this argument because now my beliefs have changed for the better. Thank you all for being patient with me.

Good day :)



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23 May 2009, 10:10 am

Here's an answer for you: In many courses that I did, and at school, I got amongst the highest marks, if not the highest mark in the class. In 1999 I put together a group and we did a syndicated homework assignment in our Project Management course at a university business school, and we got the highest mark that had ever been achieved in that course since that the first time they held it some two decades before. I even lecture in Project Management, and I go in to organisations, analyse their environment and assist them in applying formal Project Management techniques to their own specialised projects. But I am useless at managing projects myself and I am almost dysfunctional when it comes to many administrative tasks.

How intelligent is anyone, really? It depends on what they are required to do. I believe that the "average" neurotypical wife who can manage to hold down a job and be a decent mother and keep her house clean and tidy and do the cooking, laundry and dishes regularly, has an amazing gift of extreme intelligence. By comparison to someone like that I am retarted.

"Average" simply means that many other people are like that too. "Below average" and "above average" are indications of minority percentiles only. I don't believe that "normal", "average" or "common" are good standards of quality. Imagine a production line was producing cans of tomatoes, and out of a certain production run of 1000 cans, 800 cans came out containing slightly contaminated tomatoes, with a further 150 completely rotten, and only 50 safe for human consumption. In this example, even being normal is not of high quality.

There are many "normal" and "average" things that represent a standard of quality which is so great that it deserves praise and wonder. Many women take the extraordinary gift of being a good homemaker for granted and frown on others who do not have this gift, instead of praising God for endowing them with something wonderful, brilliant and worth celebrating in joyous appreciation every day. At the same time, paradoxically, they call someone who scores 100% on a piece of paper "brilliant", and puzzle at the fact that such a brilliant person cannot even tidy her own desk properly without a great deal of concentrated effort.

Of course I am brilliant. But my brilliance is brilliant within a certain context. A brilliant housewife is also brilliant within her context. And a golfer might play a brilliant shot.

I don't know what my IQ is, but how would it help me if I discovered it was, say, 150?


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23 May 2009, 10:13 am

I wrote all that while Abstract_Logic and others were also writing, and only clicked Submit after the others. Others in this thread collectively drew a neater conclusion to what I ended up saying in a more convoluted manner by way of illustration.


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Katie_WPG
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23 May 2009, 11:58 am

There are people who lack social skills, due to their mental retardation.

Asperger's differentiates those who lack social skills due to mental retardation from those who lack social skills, but their lack of social skills can NOT be attributed to mental retardation. That's why people with IQs under 70 aren't typically considered for an Asperger's diagnosis.

Childhood IQ tests are also very spotty. Does the child understand the importance of the IQ test? If they don't, then they are more likely to goof off during the test, and score lower. The same is true with ADHD children. Are only special ed children used for this sample? Additional learning disabilities could greatly affect IQ scores.



Abstract_Logic
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23 May 2009, 12:07 pm

Katie_WPG wrote:
There are people who lack social skills, due to their mental retardation.

Asperger's differentiates those who lack social skills due to mental retardation from those who lack social skills, but their lack of social skills can NOT be attributed to mental retardation. That's why people with IQs under 70 aren't typically considered for an Asperger's diagnosis.

Childhood IQ tests are also very spotty. Does the child understand the importance of the IQ test? If they don't, then they are more likely to goof off during the test, and score lower. The same is true with ADHD children. Are only special ed children used for this sample? Additional learning disabilities could greatly affect IQ scores.


well-written response. :D



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23 May 2009, 12:22 pm

I feel that intelligence is somethign that is subjective, and cannot be defined by a single number, there have been many people who have been deemed as havign a mental deficit, but have extraordinary talents in fields such as art and music. if we qualify people's intelligence by a number, what next? People's worth as a human being?



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23 May 2009, 12:32 pm

I've met a couple of people that I believe have Asperger's and also have what I'd define as a lower than average level of intelligence. But they function differently to NT's in the same way I function differently to NT's.

Those that have AS that I'd consider to also possess a high IQ, are similarly different in the way they function. In the end, it all comes down to how you classify and quantify intelligence.

Comparing the AS intellect to the NT intellect, might be like comparing apples to oranges. Similar quatities of quite different qualities.


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