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Henriksson
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30 May 2009, 12:31 pm

Shadowgirl wrote:
What a stupid video. He has it all wrong. If he interpreted it right he would see the truth.

Atheists can never 'interpret' it right, otherwise they would be theists?

I'm not naked, you just haven't read "Contemptorary Royal Fashion" and "Etiquette for Emperors". And if you've read it you've read it wrong.


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vibratetogether
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31 May 2009, 11:02 pm

My thoughts...

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we see the same characteristics of human nature


You may see the same thing, but you would interpret it differently. In my opinion, you do not have the same *understanding* of human nature, because if you did, you wouldn't be a theist.

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to where it becomes plain that its 'not that simple'


You need to extrapolate on this until you realize agnosticism.

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that things are exactly as he wills them


So no free will amirite?

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that if it is riddled with problems that will not go away, and if no amount of prayer changes human nature, would a Christian then not true up theology to reality and have to figure that God made things that way for a reason and had decided that this was going to be an axiom of the human condition that we would have to deal with?


So God is a dick?

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We have a military because even if you love your enemies, you have a right to protect yourself from their hostile intents. I will concede that the military is often abused to carry out political agendas that no Christian can support. This makes military service a difficult moral choice for the Christian.


Not often abused, always abused. From my understanding of Christianity, being a soldier would make you a horrible Christian. Thou shalt not kill and all that.

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We have the military we do because the military IS NOT operated by Christians. The military-industrial complex is all about money and power and President Eisenhower warned us to beware of this power bloc when he gave his farewell address.


I appreciate that you recognize this, but the fact remains, you don't find a whole lot of Christians at anti-war protests (admittedly I personally know of a few, but they are the exception to the rule).

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Money in the hands of those with a right attitude can do much good.


Agreed, but it doesn't work out that way very often, now does it? Again, from my understanding of Christianity, Jesus would prefer you to quit your job and go become a missionary in a 3rd world country. Sponsoring a child to appease your guilt does not qualify.

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The video was a deadpan right on accurate reductio ad absurdum of Christianity. It was probably done by a neo-Pagan. Neo-Pagans are my kind of people. I would rather deal with a fair minded Pagan of good will then a sanctimonious Christian zealot any day of the week.


You are awesome (at least when it doesn't come to Japanese folk) :wink:

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wait, there are intillgent christains?


There are plenty of Christians with a high IQ, but most of them lack the proper critical doubt (both of themselves and others) to be what I would call a "smart person". Without an understanding of self, higher IQs basically just lend themselves to the "intelligent" person creating higher levels of personal deception.

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No, it really wasn't a deadpan right on reductio ad absurdum. Taking a document and misinterpreting it hardly proves or disproves anything, and most of the interpretations that were made are thoroughly rejected and have been for a long period of time. The only one of the things mentioned that was seems even close to right was the very first criticism, as the early church *did* have a pacifistic streak, but even then this does not seem to be enough to force Christians to claim that the Bible tells them to be utter pacifists, and most theologians reject that interpretation in favor of something closer to the Just War interpretation.


Just because your pastor/bishop/whatever or some theological scholar has come to these conclusions does not make them correct. This is your personal deception acting up.

There is no such thing as a just war.

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Yes, there are intelligent Christians. Not knowing that only expresses a very deep ignorance of Christianity, as there are significant Christian philosophers and apologists in existence. Alvin Plantinga is recognized by other philosophers as one of the best minds in philosophy today. Apologist William Lane Craig is recognized as one of the best debaters(and is also a philosopher who does work in metaphysics). This can shock you because you consider Christianity absurd, but I think you under estimate the extent to which human belief is rational, even among people who tend to value rationality even.


No, as I stated before, these are not smart people. They are highly intelligent people that have created highly sophisticated personal deceptions. If you WANT to believe something badly enough, and have the mind to process information at high levels, you'll come up with seemingly intelligent defenses for your personal deception. However, it all boils down to personal deception, and a general misunderstanding of human nature.

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As for them "calling themselves Christian", well, there is little evidence to say that they aren't.


Christianity is so disconnected, that the term "Christian" is no longer really an absolute noun. It's better served as a relative adjective.

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What a stupid video. He has it all wrong. If he interpreted it right he would see the truth.


I should really just reply to your posts with a picture of a troll.



Ancalagon
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01 Jun 2009, 3:43 pm

vibratetogether wrote:
Not often abused, always abused. From my understanding of Christianity, being a soldier would make you a horrible Christian. Thou shalt not kill and all that.

The word translated 'kill' in that passage means 'murder'. If this were the case, why would Jesus not have told a centurion that he talked to to quit his job?

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I appreciate that you recognize this, but the fact remains, you don't find a whole lot of Christians at anti-war protests (admittedly I personally know of a few, but they are the exception to the rule).

There are probably a number of demographics that are overrepresented (and others underrepresented) at anti-war protests. That doesn't mean that the majority of those groups do/don't support the war.

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Again, from my understanding of Christianity, Jesus would prefer you to quit your job and go become a missionary in a 3rd world country.

Where did you get this?

More importantly, what gave you the idea that your understanding of Christianity is better than that of actual Christians?

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There are plenty of Christians with a high IQ, but most of them lack the proper critical doubt (both of themselves and others) to be what I would call a "smart person".

In other words, if someone intelligent doesn't agree with you, then they're dumb. :roll:

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There is no such thing as a just war.

Given that you deny the existence of an absolute morality, this is a very odd statement to make.


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vibratetogether
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01 Jun 2009, 4:38 pm

You always gotta come with that hot fire Ancalagon. I'm just sittin here having breakfast, trying to do some light posting and you force me to bring out the big guns. I respect that. I'll try and get back to you soon, but it likely won't be today.



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01 Jun 2009, 7:13 pm

vibratetogether wrote:
You always gotta come with that hot fire Ancalagon. I'm just sittin here having breakfast, trying to do some light posting and you force me to bring out the big guns.

Now where did I put that bullet-proof vest...

:D


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01 Jun 2009, 7:28 pm

I thought that the video was rather nicely done.

I similarly believe that the overwhelming majority of people who claim to be Christian really aren't. Nearly all of them are frauds. Our society wouldn't function as it does if everyone truly followed Christianity.



vibratetogether
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03 Jun 2009, 4:34 am

Quote:
The word translated 'kill' in that passage means 'murder'. If this were the case, why would Jesus not have told a centurion that he talked to to quit his job?


In all honesty, I am not aware of the passage you are referring to. I'd appreciate if you could give me the "location" (what is the term I'm looking for here?) so I can google it.

Admittedly I could be wrong about Jesus' stance on war, but if I am wrong, it seems like Jesus become much less like-able.

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There are probably a number of demographics that are overrepresented (and others underrepresented) at anti-war protests. That doesn't mean that the majority of those groups do/don't support the war.


Granted. However, I still think that if you are anti-war, you should let your voice be heard as loudly as possible. I admit there are elements to most protests that might turn off a lot of people (myself included), but if you can get past the messed up party politics of the far left, protesting can be a very positive thing.

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Where did you get this?

More importantly, what gave you the idea that your understanding of Christianity is better than that of actual Christians?


I didn't say that my understanding was better, in fact, I admit that I could be wrong. I have an impression of Jesus as the "goodest of the good", if you will. I was raised Unitarian Universalist, so I was exposed to Jesus as a positive historical figure (although not a divine one), and I remember a few stories that created this sort of impression. If I am wrong, and again, I admit that I could be, I don't see why you Christians would like the guy so much.

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In other words, if someone intelligent doesn't agree with you, then they're dumb. Rolling Eyes


Absolutely not, although I can see how it might seem that way. This is an opinion, I admit that, but it's a very strong opinion. I believe that I am the exception to the rule when it comes to human nature, specifically in my agnostic nature. Perhaps this could still be applied to me, but it seems as though I've found a loophole in what I might term "mental self-defense". Most people use information to enforce a view they already hold, they filter their experience to fit with their world-view. As such, even though someone may be intelligent, that does not mean they are aware. If they are intelligent but not aware, they will use their intelligence even more vehemently to protect their world-view. The ace up my sleeve, that I don't think most people have, is that I am not emotionally tied to my impression of the world. I see possibilities, not absolutes.

I hope that makes sense and doesn't just enforce your view that I am an arrogant twit.

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Given that you deny the existence of an absolute morality, this is a very odd statement to make.


I do this all the time. It's my opinion, I am not stating an absolute fact (although clearly that statement made is absolutist). It's difficult for me to qualify everything I say. So, in my opinion, there is no such thing as a just war.



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03 Jun 2009, 9:10 am

vibratetogether wrote:
Absolutely not, although I can see how it might seem that way. This is an opinion, I admit that, but it's a very strong opinion. I believe that I am the exception to the rule when it comes to human nature, specifically in my agnostic nature. Perhaps this could still be applied to me, but it seems as though I've found a loophole in what I might term "mental self-defense". Most people use information to enforce a view they already hold, they filter their experience to fit with their world-view. As such, even though someone may be intelligent, that does not mean they are aware. If they are intelligent but not aware, they will use their intelligence even more vehemently to protect their world-view. The ace up my sleeve, that I don't think most people have, is that I am not emotionally tied to my impression of the world. I see possibilities, not absolutes.

I hope that makes sense and doesn't just enforce your view that I am an arrogant twit.

Everyone believes themselves to be less biased and less susceptible to cognitive failures than average.


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03 Jun 2009, 2:58 pm

vibratetogether wrote:
In all honesty, I am not aware of the passage you are referring to. I'd appreciate if you could give me the "location" (what is the term I'm looking for here?) so I can google it.

"Thou shalt not kill", which you mentioned above, is a direct quote of the ten commandments in the King James translation. It is in Exodus 20:13. The NIV reads, "You shall not murder".

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Granted. However, I still think that if you are anti-war, you should let your voice be heard as loudly as possible. I admit there are elements to most protests that might turn off a lot of people (myself included), but if you can get past the messed up party politics of the far left, protesting can be a very positive thing.

There are some people who don't want to go to protests, however much they agree with the protesters. I've never been to a pro-life protest, despite feeling strongly about the issue.

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Absolutely not, although I can see how it might seem that way. This is an opinion, I admit that, but it's a very strong opinion. I believe that I am the exception to the rule when it comes to human nature, specifically in my agnostic nature. Perhaps this could still be applied to me, but it seems as though I've found a loophole in what I might term "mental self-defense". Most people use information to enforce a view they already hold, they filter their experience to fit with their world-view. As such, even though someone may be intelligent, that does not mean they are aware. If they are intelligent but not aware, they will use their intelligence even more vehemently to protect their world-view. The ace up my sleeve, that I don't think most people have, is that I am not emotionally tied to my impression of the world. I see possibilities, not absolutes.

Applying doubt -- including self-doubt -- is something I do all the time. My favorite disciple is Doubting Thomas.

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It's difficult for me to qualify everything I say. So, in my opinion, there is no such thing as a just war.

So, purely defensive wars are wrong too? How do you justify saying that a war is unjust if fighting it would undeniably result in less total human suffering and death?


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ruveyn
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03 Jun 2009, 3:15 pm

Orwell wrote:


Everyone believes themselves to be less biased and less susceptible to cognitive failures than average.


Over ninety five percent of parents think their children are smarter than average. Something is wrong.

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vibratetogether
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03 Jun 2009, 8:34 pm

Orwell wrote:
vibratetogether wrote:
Absolutely not, although I can see how it might seem that way. This is an opinion, I admit that, but it's a very strong opinion. I believe that I am the exception to the rule when it comes to human nature, specifically in my agnostic nature. Perhaps this could still be applied to me, but it seems as though I've found a loophole in what I might term "mental self-defense". Most people use information to enforce a view they already hold, they filter their experience to fit with their world-view. As such, even though someone may be intelligent, that does not mean they are aware. If they are intelligent but not aware, they will use their intelligence even more vehemently to protect their world-view. The ace up my sleeve, that I don't think most people have, is that I am not emotionally tied to my impression of the world. I see possibilities, not absolutes.

I hope that makes sense and doesn't just enforce your view that I am an arrogant twit.

Everyone believes themselves to be less biased and less susceptible to cognitive failures than average.


Right, and that makes it hard for me to say "I'm not like that" without sounding like I'm arrogant or in denial. But, well, I'm not like that.



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03 Jun 2009, 8:41 pm

vibratetogether wrote:
Right, and that makes it hard for me to say "I'm not like that" without sounding like I'm arrogant or in denial. But, well, I'm not like that.

Of course. Everyone believes themselves less susceptible to common intellectual foibles than other people... you actually are.. Just like every 19-year-old chess player believes themselves to be under-rated, but I actually am.


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vibratetogether
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03 Jun 2009, 8:43 pm

Ancalagon wrote:
So, purely defensive wars are wrong too? How do you justify saying that a war is unjust if fighting it would undeniably result in less total human suffering and death?


It depends what we're talking about. If we're talking about repelling an invasion, I think that can be justified, so long as it is a direct affront to your land and livelihood. But, I don't even look at the Revolutionary War as purely defensive, so I'll tend to be careful in describing any war as "purely defensive". However, in the back of my mind, I can't help but think there is a better way. So I'll have a hard time ever admitting any war is "just". You can argue that a war may be for the greater good, but I guess I'm looking towards the greater greater good.