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Mordy
Deinonychus
Deinonychus


Joined: May 05, 2006
Posts: 310

PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:08 pm    Post subject: How “Nice guys” are made, The ultimate post Reply with quote

How “NICE GUYS” are made, its relation to AS, and why they finish last --

The first, and last word on how "nice guys" the bane of all women's existence... are created!

This is an immesnely long post, so be sure you're going to have to digest in chunks or multiple sittings. Note that I haven't edited it or revised or really condensed any of it yet, I'm just "Getting it out there". Large chunks of this essay have to do with elaborating underlying social problems that ultimately contribute to screwed up children (not just the nice guys!).

Ok you’ve all heard the term “Nice guys finish last”, but no one has ever defined the features of “the nice guy”, and what is it that goes into making the "Nice guy"? That annoying, whiny, wimpy, overgrown child, with no backbone to speak of? Afraid of even the thought of approaching a girl, lest he reject him... Quite frankly it is such a vague word that people abuse it to describe anyone they simply don’t get along with or justify dumping. So let’s figure this out, shall we? Most nice guys have traits in common, mainly being approval seeking, needy, "emotionally unstable", tense, serious, depressed (always unhappy, or faking happyness), predictable, boring, limited interests (always want to do the same thing), and guys who most likely don't really enjoy socializing, so much of it comes out stilted and forced based on scripts from movies or bad advice from mothers and clueless women.

I will explain how guys become “Nice guys” and you'll see why through reading it, why girls aren’t attracted to “Nice guys” which is, many times, a code name for boring, socially clueless, and aesthetically challenged guys. Some nerdy, some not, you can be super hot and still be a “nice guy” (you just don’t “get it”), so I am going to go into detail about how Nice Guy Syndrome (NGS) for short occurs to guys. How do guys end up becoming needy, wimpy, boring guys in the first place?

Now there are different types of “nice guys”, and not all nice guys have the same problems, traits or qualities, so keep this in mind. I will go into detail about the problems of society, and how these problems effect the development of boys and how they are basically in environments in which they acquire "Nice guy syndrome".

Society itself is one of the #1 causes of Nice Guy Syndrome.

Part #1 of the Nice guy syndrome is a symptom of larger problems with society as a whole. This is absolutely a critical factor to understand, since most people do not have the intellectual wherewithal to understand what is going on in their societies and where the problems really come from and what the true causes are.

Many if not most guys (and girls) today are raised in what amounts to parentless households; meaning, there is no real time spent with kids as they grow up and neither is their any quality communication happening between parent and child today. Most time is absorbed by binging on entertainment, school and work. Today’s parents are basically food, money and toy dispensers for their kids while little Johnny and sally are left to be raised by school, the internet, the media, TV, video games and their immature peers. Most of which not having the maturity or perspective of truly mature people (both young and old alike). Then add in the cultural divide (religious tension, intellectual disparities, evolutionary emotional prejudices, sibling favoritism, etc) between parents and their children and you have a recipe for enormous social problems, with quite a large chunk of it stemming from market oriented economic suffocation of people’s time and resources. Then there is the increasingly individualistic hedonism and delusion infecting North American populations inspired by mass media and market-oriented society beaming the lifestyles of the insanely rich into their minds from every which way.

Consumerism and the practically parentless children of today

One component is that the media, movies, entertainment are what are skewing perceptions of the population from childhood (especially guys). Corporations love unhappy people, consumerism and psychological warfare. Unfortunately this means they will f**k society over to make a profit, knowingly destabilizing a social fabric and a countries socio-economic order for economic gain.

Most children as they grow up today increasingly grow up in a fantasy land of all manner of distraction and distortions of reality, like TV, video games, movies and other sorts of entertainment. It’s not that entertainment is bad per se; it’s that our life’s expectations of others, what we expect and how we perceive the world are effected because schools and parents are themselves divorced from understanding and therefore teaching the reality. Sure kids may know TV is all lies, and the media is fake… but they are still hopelessly wedded subconsciously to their social programming they received while growing up whether they admit it or not. Those idealistic visions and fantasies rub off on us very slowly as we grow up, practically imperceptible to most of us. The problem with this is that it creates enormously unrealistic expectations divorced from the real world. Go look at what a typical young woman wants in a guy today out of college and compare it with the economic and demographic information of the country or region she lives in… in short ladies and gentlemen, this woman having been spoiled by having the lifestyles of the rich beamed at the entire society through mass media, the lack of critical thought and looking at the world rationally and scientifically leads to constant frustration of her life’s expectations, both boys and girls start having unrealistic expectations of what is possible to get out of life, in short they are living in a fantasy land of self deception and delusion all designed by the school and media system to create frustration, since unhappy people are the best consumers. The will buy all manner of things to make themselves feel better about their lack of non-reality based unfulfilled expectations.

Parents that are themselves still lost, immature and basically children themselves

Many parents as people are still lost and immature themselves unfortunately; the problem of immature kids having kids rears its ugly head due to the “Parents living at work” problem, and the ‘checking out’ to recharge from stress when they get home. As most parents come home and dive into TV, books, or some other form of entertaining escape or they go out to recharge and get some “Me” time to get away from the stresses of parenting, the bills and their jobs.

Then there is the increasing amount of hours being worked, parents having to work an enormous amount of hours just to get by and pay the bills for their families, with increasingly poor working conditions. Today’s society is very much messed up and the social decay of modern society is very hush-hush in most popular media and barely understandable by large swaths of the general public unfortunately. Those that are in the know somewhat are trapped in their jobs and since they are incestuously wedded to their lifestyles, and own little world simply don’t care. The people that understand what is going on and do give a shit feel powerless to do anything about it because nearly all their time is spent at work and simply doing what needs to be done to survive. Most are too weak willed to spend the little free time they have on social projects to better society… as they too check out of reality into their own little worlds away from stress and work to recharge, by going out socially or diving into some form of entertainment to escape the horrors of modern capitalist reality.

Economic suffocation leads to a Lack of time and resources to be a parent

By and large most parents today now are forced economically to leave parenting up to strangers (babysitters), private or government run daycare and finally the school system. Which is another recipe for disaster, the school system is run by “professionals” and people of varying degrees of quality unfortunately, But the problem is teachers cannot be expected to be invested to children in the same degree as parents, simply because they have to deal with enormous class sizes, they simply do not have the human resources to see every child grows up ok and catch any problems or learning disabilities. Most teachers that are teaching today have to deal with financial constraints and huge influx of immigrants from other countries as the birth rates of industrialized nations like the USA, Canada, Britain, Europe, etc are falling at incredible rates due to young people focusing on wealth and fun over breeding and responsibility, while at the same time their countries are importing enormous amounts of people both legally and illegally into the formal and informal (black) economies.

Family and relationship breakdown between men and women due to extreme competition and economic instability

Families are no really no longer families anymore unfortunately, as financial, technological freedom (transportation, etc) and technological advances increased; people became more disconnected in terms of building lasting bonds with people of their communities, there were an ever increasing array of distractions and fantasy worlds to check out into to cope with the enormous stress of modern living. Most people are in fact entertainment drug addicts trying to escape the pressures, and harsh realities of modern life. Shoving social problems under the rug as they check out into what they do in their off time. Just go to any news site like CNN or CBC in Canada and every other week you’ll see stuff about workplace stress, etc. Stress in modern society, in short is, already by and large out of control; almost all of it is economically induced by overwork and extreme competition in the schools and markets, businesses and governments are getting even more totalitarian and Orwellian. There really is no privacy in the modern market oriented information age. Corporations are beholden to no one, they are like stateless states that can attack countries economies for the benefits of the worlds wealthiest families. Then there is the modern media propaganda promulgating unrealistic standard of living expectations in children and adults alike, these unrealistic expectations and Economic instability leads to population failure (declining birthrates).

The Depression time bomb and the economic basis of depression and relationship breakdown

The world Health organization predicts that Depression will be the second leading cause of death by 2020, Many blame increasing job and relationship insecurity for the rise in mental illness. BBC News Online reports on a London conference which looked at how to tackle the problem.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/485176.stm

And they are absolutely correct, unfettered capitalist competition is bad, because as one country “wins” (i.e. china trading with the US) the other country loses slowly but surely without any tariff protection to protect the living standards of the home economy, this is what tariffs are for. To prevent the wealth from being sucked out of a country and lowering the populations living standards. Every item you buy from china you are lowering the standard of living in your home country. Economists and governments know this; why else would they say that Canadians for instance on disability will be cut off if they move to say china where they can live a middle class lifestyle on their $11,000 a year? Because they know that money is not being re-circulated in their economy, they’ve “sprung a leak” economically (and yes please do visualize money as an energy field or a bubble of a body of water, watch and visualize it leaking from one country to another) and they know the money they are putting out is going to another countries economy.

You see its capitalist myths like “competition is good” and “low prices raise your standard of living” without a context, that is really illusionary when companies like Wal-mart are simply an extortionary middle man taking all the profit and not truly lowering prices as much as they could and taking in mark ups of well over 60% per item from foreign manufactured goods. The American greats of the United States, like Abraham Lincoln, James Madison and John Adams knew this. This is why many early “founding fathers” were in favor of tariffs, to protect a countries economy from trade wars of attrition that are occurring now between china and the rest of the world. The higher ups that knew that engaging in unfair Trade was going to destroy the countries living standards economically, and cheapen labour, this is what trade wars are truly for, to control the growth and power of a country, and repeal the gains made by labourers in that country through trade wars of attrition.

The truth is the military and government know how economies truly work to a large degree; They know money is really social energy that determines resource control and access when you do not own or can control self-sustaining property (in terms of food, energy, etc). Most people do not own their own land and production equipment that could produce what they need to survive outside of a market system, so they are forced to work for businesses.

How this all fits together – Finally, how “Nice guys” are produced

Nice guys are by and large products of clueless ignorant parents, parentless households and education systems that are not designed to deal with the growth of children on an individual basis, combine this with media propaganda, economic stressors and barely understood evolutionary psychology and you have a recipe for wimpy, needy, nice guys. The education systems in North America use what I call the “factory farm” model; they try to develop kids in a certain way according to some arbitrary model or standard based on performance and competitive/market capitalist ideals which are pretty much completely divorced from scientific understanding of human beings biological development and understanding of evolutionary psychology and human needs.

Their self concept and self-esteem

From the moment guys enter the school system their minds are being habituated half-consciously into a “performance” or “needy” and “dependent” mode of thinking, acting and feeling, their very thought process is being shaped by the structure of the classroom. Their self esteem becomes inextricably linked and tied to how well they perform some scripted or expected proscribed action in some subject in order to get a good grade, whether or not they are interested in it. There is really no incentive for children to do well in school if they do not enjoy the work, so this creates restlessness, anxiousness, unhappiness and stress.

Children… the barbarians

The next part is that in the school system you have a bunch of what basically amounts to, barbarian children. Children are not these angels of light and purity, a good lot of children are barbaric and downright evil, especially when their parents are not around. This is not entirely their fault since many children do not have the cognitive capacity to understand themselves and their minds and bodies are still developing and growing, so they are impulsive. But the fact is, after all is said and done; they inherit the behavioral baggage and flaws of evolution, behaviors that were designed for a completely different environment far removed from the modern school system and modern society for that matter.

So as these children are all suffering the growing pains of a maturing mind and body and other evolutionary processes, they take out their badness on other children by engaging them in merciless teasing and taunting, stupid social status games and demonstrations of superiority. (The childhood pecking order) This can have extreme effects on some guys, especially overweight, asocial, socially awkward and ugly guys who naturally have a tendency to be unsure of themselves, timid, and not very confident. I’m not even going to mention the children that suck at sports and what some of them have to endure every gym class.

The clueless teachers and administration

Next are teachers that do not have the background to understand what is going on even though they might “think they do” and they more often then not “blame the parents”, when by and large children spend the majority of their first 12 years with them. Most do not have a firm grasp and understanding of evolutionary psychology. These teachers simply lack the awareness and cognitive power to head off problems that will severely effect a child’s psychological development. In short, they are extremely clueless, and those that aren’t clueless are politically helpless to remove problem children from their classrooms which they need to so desperately do. The most critical stages of a child’s development are within the first 12 to 15 years of its life, the most important time in which not to screw it up.

A guys self worth

Now how a guy goes about assessing his self worth is related to his social relations with his classmates and the tensions, stress and anxiousness caused by other children he does not get along with, and then combine that with his performance anxiety tied to the work of school. Now it’s not whether or not a kid values or cares about school or his grades, which is pretty much irrelevant. Deep down inside all guys care about not being able to perform, even if they think it is irrelevant. Its how his psychology is shaped by his peers (the other children) and the bad psychological habits built up over time by years in the school system that are part of the equation. The very structure of school creates a preferred cognitive or problem solving style in guys, and does not help them when they finally have to deal with teenage girls and finally adult women.

Logic and the structure of school and its effect on guy’s minds

The structure of school is logical, and guys like logic and structure even if they hate school. They can understand the structure of school, competing, performance, grades, etc. So the structure of school makes sense to them, even if they hate the idea of working and the stress they have to go through while they are there. Even if the quality of the education and quality of teachers are low, and they end up dealing with the losers hired by the school. They “get” the structure of school.

Now this structure habituates guy’s minds into a very pre-determined, A leads to B, kind of thinking. If I do A, the outcome should always be B. Therefore, the guys thought processes and expectations in his mind are that of being predictable, a predictable and determinable style of thought and hence expectation of solving the problems becomes habituated and engrained in his thought processes. It is this that interferes with his understanding of the most illogical (to many guys) creature of all: Women.

The school and societies cluelessness sets guys up to take the “nice guy” fall

Unfortunately for guys, they are socially programmed by society and their clueless peers and parents to be “nice guys”, because these guys’ minds have been habituated to basically accept and not think about what amount to “propagandistic” statements from women, their mothers and the media. He gets stuck in a mold of BAD ADVICE because of how school has habituated his minds thought processes. Couple his molded thought processes to watching unrealistic fantasies of what “women really want” from movies, and bad advice from their own clueless mothers who are not part of their generation and you are over 50 percent finished your recipe of the “nice guy”.

How guys contribute to their own downfall and becoming the “Nice guy”

1. Lack of critical thinking, in not being aware of how ignorant other people are of themselves and relationships.

Guys frequently accept statements blindly without critical thought from people that are clueless about women, they don’t understand that most men and women in society are propagandized to as well and are just as clueless themselves. So we have the “clueless parrot of wisdom” effect, and the blind leading the blind, where people repeat things that they agree are “supposed to be true” but aren’t true at all.

2. Most women are not a good source of advice about how women work. It’s true, women are masters of self-deception and reality distortion, this is in part why they are such good liars. In their mind, it’s not a lie; it’s a perfectly acceptable tactic to protect their fragile egos or manipulate someone into getting what they want. They will not hesitate to lie and mislead men to boost their own egos and for their own profit, vengeful feelings, or entertainment, you have been warned!

3. Social ostracism by not understanding evolutionary prejudice and mate selection systems

During peoples biological development social status systems in the brain come online and are running in the background of peoples thoughts and are automatically guiding a lot of their behaviour unaware, especially in the minds of teenage girls and young adult women.

Many guys and girls in high school (and college) develop social senses that do not develop properly in many “nice guys”, you’ll often see nice guys dressing poorly or not caring about their looks or appearance. You’ll also see nice guys not trying to fit in or adapt to the social scene of where they are at. Or if they are, they are trying too hard and and come off as needy and in need of other peoples approval. Which is by and large a feature of every nice guy, he needs other peoples approval to validate his self worth because his ego is overemotionally invested in every little interaction.

This need for approval is probably one of the biggest strikes to social acceptance while in high school, college. One of the most important times for social development is often lost on the nice guy because of years of being abused by his classmates and the slow conditioning of his thought processes by the school system and being fed propaganda by clueless parents, friends, women, the side effects of brainwashing from media propaganda via entertainment.

3a) Being overweight and social aversion through peer punishment

Next if a guy has been overweight for many years and teased endlessly, this severely affects self confidence and self esteem to the point where many ugly/fat guys give up socializing or attempting to approach girls at all. They also feel so bad about how they look these guys also do not attempt to go out and socialize to make friends due to fear of rejection and being judged. These overweight/ugly Guys behavior has become so habituated by peer abuse, and his self consciousness and self-esteem has become so acutely low. He blindly, half unknowingly sabotages himself because his ego and self-perception has been so distorted by other children and the school system, he does not have the proper perspective of his own self worth, in short he has been f****d over by society. I would imagine many excessively overweight or ugly guys develop severe lifelong psychological fear and anxiety problems because of peer rejection based on the repugnance of how one looks and their negative development of approval seeking behaviors in attempt to validate themselves, sad… but true.

The other problem is overweight guys are so clueless about how social acceptance works that they never do anything about their weight to minimize negative effects of peoples attitudes. They’ve accepted the party line of their mothers “It’s what’s inside that counts”, a crock of shit if I ever heard one of course. Your mothers were mostly wrong when it comes to being overweight (Did I not tell you not to listen to women?). Appearance matters, in how it effects other people’s emotions and attitudes towards you before you have even met them, guys, you must face this fact. Looks are not THAT important if you are socially competent guy, but if you are a guy without social competence looks help no matter what your level of skill, they stop people from feeling, feelings of repugnance or grossed out before they get to know you and know who you are, which finally makes appearances less of an issue.

Lack of experience

Yep, simple lack of experience with girls and guys even. Their being distracted by entertainment or whatever it is that consumes them leads to social avoidance. Which helps produce those lovely, socially inept, “Nice guys” who use bad advice, and things they picked up half-consciously from watching all those bad movies, TV shows, and from horrible women’s advice columns on the internet.

Mental maps and the minds own psychological reward issues

Each person has a mental map inside their heads of what behaviors are positively rewarded or negatively rewarded, the thing is. Many nice guys developed fairly normally for many years until… they found video games, or some other amazingly addictive vice or stimulant that took them away the majority of their time from socializing. So they became more interested in THINGS then people, and didn’t socially develop because they spent all their time being addicted to whatever it was they fancied, and their clueless parents did nothing to stop them from sabotaging their social development from spending too much time alone or simply with friends that did not care about socializing.

Asocial Genetic tendencies and hidden information processing disabilities

Other guys simply have minds that genetically do not naturally give them positive feedback for initiating social interaction and socializing with others at all, it is in fact mentally taxing. Many are in fact punished by their mind for socializing, this manifests itself as feelings of stress, or extreme anxiety and fear and this feeds back on itself over the years these guys grow up in school. They often appear as “nice quiet boys” in public school, who don’t get into too much trouble, have no real problems engaging their guy friends, but never will you see them engaging girls very often and understanding them, simply because they do not get girls or understand how girls communicate.

You can get these guys to develop positive feelings towards social interaction but it takes time habituating a person that is not naturally and normally rewarded for engaging in social behaviors, or may have underlying memory and information processing issues causing conversational stalling which produces extreme anxiety and stress. Most teachers and parents are completely unaware of this fact and guys are never encouraged to develop positive feelings towards socializing through lack of time spent socializing. So they therefore could grow and become more socially adept and habituated towards the positive benefits of socialization. (i.e. essentially, forced to socialize by their parents for their own good… no more xbox, computer games, etc, for hours long marathons everyday after school).

“Nice guys” who aren’t good guys but are only interested in sex

Next on the list is that many “Nice guys” are in fact, not “nice” guys at all. Unfortunately, some nice guys don’t want to “be bothered” about communicating as a human being, by socializing and engaging girls and women as human beings; they want to engage them as things or objects. Some naively place them on a pedestal and do all these wimpy supplicative things in a blind attempt in the hopes of extracting sex out of them.

This is what women hate; women want to be engaged as equal (or lesser in a funny way) human beings, not things or princesses to be worshipped (despite some women’s rantings to the contrary). They know immediately if a guy doesn’t get it and is still stuck in pre-pubescent understanding of girls and women in general. Women manipulate guys that worship them, and love guys that are not unduly enamored by the fact they are women and are able put them in their place, this is the truth. They want a guy that understands their world, their thoughts, how they understand social scene and their perspective and can go out and get another woman without much of a problem.

Would you as a guy want a girl that licks your boots or is needy and smothers you where-ever you go? Who can’t stand not spending a moment without you? Most likely not! This is how many “Nice guys” appear to women, they just don’t get it because they have never been properly socialized, and neither do they understand a woman’s reality.

Emotionally over invested in every social interaction

This is a big one for all those “Nice guys” their ego’s are so fragile from abuse in the school system and their minds are so outcome based because of the school systems influence, so if a social engagement doesn’t go well they can’t blow it off, they will think about it far too long after it has occurred. Since they do not get out often enough building up the confidence and experience necessary to understand their own blindness and stupidity.

Guys who have issues with depression and other psychological problems the result of society and the school system

Yep, many nice guys in fact have other issues that contribute to their naïve conceptions of women and the world. Much of it having to do with the sorry state of modern society and the school system unfortunately. Things well beyond their control, many “Nice guys” develop serious psychological issues that could be overcome if they had a support group or established group of friends consisting of both successful women and men who could take them under their wing and show them how to really understand how other people think and go about socializing, so if you know any "Nice guys" and are socially adept help the poor guy out FFS!

Many nice guys really have lacked any kind of guidance in their life due to the nature of how our society is structured and it is this lack of guidance, and all the time spent on work and escapism that leaves them mentally and emotionally immature, by and large nice guys are product of the larger problems in the society that produced them. Mainly, Neglect, Abuse, and undiagnosed information processing issues in how their mind works.

Nice guys and its relation to AS

Many AS guys go through the “Nice guy” phase, or period, simply because it is so difficult for their minds to process social information, due to lack of proper conceptual framework. The only way they can begin to process social information is by learning by experience through trial and error, or the better way of learning by the perspectives of other men and women from how they process social information and interaction from their own first person perspectives. By being given a firstperson account glimpse into their inner thought processes and how they process it, and having it broken down in a logical and analytical fashion they can understand it! Since by and large AS guys lack the natural evolutionary systems in the mind that other people do that intuitively and do much social processing automatically for them.

The qualities of these so called "Nice guys"

NOTE: This is not a full list, or meant to be authoritative in any way, there are many other things one could come up with about "Nice guys" feel free to post them.

So as you can see many of these "Nice guys" have developed problems through all the issues mentioned above, which turn them into...

1) Boring predictable guys, limited interests, hates doing things (i.e. I dont want to go dancing, I hate dancing, etc... when he's really justifying his fear of being seen by others dancing)
2) Non social, socially inept or totally asocial guys
3) Approval seeking and needy guys, who's ego's are crushed at the drop of a hat (girls have fun with these guys when they need an ego boost)
4) Overly Emotional, tense and fearfully anxious guys, giving off really bad vibes (body language) when in social situations!
5) Depressed, lifeless and moody guys who can't enjoy much of anything (You are so not fun! Girls hate these guys!)
6) Socailly inept / Forced socialization guys (I don't want to be here, I'm trying to placate you to bypass engaging you as a human being, I just want the sex, please give it to me!)
7) Needy, Clueless supplicating guys (Oh women, you are all goddesses, I will worship you forever, bring you teddy bear, bring flowers to you on the first date, call you 50 times a day, just to hear your voice!)
Cool Self-deprecating guys, guys who's self worth is in the pits.
9) Guys who can't stop being serious all the time
10) Guys who treat interaction with girls way too seriously (i.e. like every move they make, if wrong, may cause the world to blow up!).
11) Non talkative guys, or guys that are stressed to make conversation. (This may be a result of information processing issues or learning disabilities, but mostly the result of lack of practice and not enough experience socializing)
12) Guys that have no goals or ambition (read: Work ethic)
13) Guys that still live with their mothers until they are 30 or older. (Read: lacking responsibility and independence)

So try to forgive some nice guys, and get ALL of them to read Double Your Dating by David DeAngelo. That will put those “nice guys” on the first step to their road to recovery.

That’s all for now folks.


Last edited by Mordy on Thu Feb 01, 2007 3:44 pm; edited 2 times in total
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NeoPlatonist
Deinonychus
Deinonychus


Joined: Nov 22, 2006
Age: 28
Posts: 363
Location: Indiana

PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 2:22 am    Post subject: Re: How “Nice guys” are made, The ultimate post Reply with quote

This is a good, thought provoking post. I would call myself a nice guy (and I have yet to finish) but there are a few significant differences between "the nice guy" as you described him and myself particularly in the cause of my niceness. Maybe I'm not reading your point right but it seems to me you are describing the typical 16-22 year old male. Would you say that nice guys are the norm? If not, what is the difference between an average guy and a nice guy. Then again, I am mystified in the appeal of over-confident macho men.

Ok people, time to take your ADD meds because this is going to be a ramble.... Wink

It seems to me that you are saying the cause of nice guy-ness is the lack of socialization as a kid combined with false expectations of life caused by commercialism. I think that it can be true but it wasn't the case with me. My mom was very much a house wife, She spent a lot of time with me as a child and home schooled me through 4th grade. My parents didn't let me watch much TV and didn't get me piles of the shiniest toys for which I am very thankful. They encouraged me to read, use my imagination, and play with my friends. So, for me, there was no lack of socialization in my childhood and that is probably why I am on the higher end of the spectrum. They also believed in using persuasion rather than force to guide my actions. Say, if I stole a cookie, they would take away privileges or something like that but, more importantly, they would explain why it was wrong. The other thing that helped is they tried never to become angry with me when I came to talk to them about things (even if what I was saying warranted anger). The would reprimand me if necessary and usually that was enough. As a result of this, I have always been very close to my parents because the lines of communication never had to shut.

I have been fairly self analytical all my life. I think that people seek entertainment to keep from thinking about themselves and their lives too much. It can be frightening to look at yourself deeply because, I think, guys want to believe that if they get a good job, money, a hot chick to sleep with them, and a big screen TV, they will be happy. At least it is something definite you can work towards and the media is full of people (celebs and CEOs) who have apparently achieved this bourgeois happiness. Of course it has been proven time and time again that a rich lifestyle and capitalistic achievement can't buy happiness. A while back Psychology Today ran an article about CEOs being more susceptible to depression than your average Joe (Read it here). As for me, I still struggle to understand the nature of happiness or a fulfilled life. There are no easy answers.

I would say that poor parenting and the consumer society were not major contributors to my nice guy-ness and I certainly show some of the characteristics you wrote of.


My self esteem isn't great but it's caused more by my self criticism than by my wanting to please others. I've pretty much decided that, no matter what I try to do, I will never be able to please others. I just don't get what they want from me and if I did get it, I'm not sure I would want to do it anyway. It seems like a lot of social norms are degrading or simply against my personality. Even if it was socially correct to go up to a girl and say, "You, me, my bed, tonight.... yeah baby," that is just not my personality though it would probably get me more action. I also rarely bother too much about my appearance. I probably do have cognitive problems processing social information. It's not like I don't try to socialize - I go to parties and get-togethers when ever I am invited. If it is a theme or costume party, I'll work something up to wear though usually nothing too elaborate. My last two costumes were low effort but well received (lesbian light designer: socks bunched up to look like boobs under a shapeless plaid shirt and Arrogant Designer: black pants and black turtleneck + an egotistic attitude). I don't think I try too hard or too little but I am not really accepted by the mainstream theater crowd here.

Getting into my self criticism: I find that the most difficult person to please is myself. Often times my work goes far beyond what is required of me and yet I am not satisfied with it. An average person would not even notice the extra effort so it's not like I'm trying to impress anyone. I am more concerned with my search for truth than with my grades (which are acceptable but not great) and I get pissed off at myself when I spend too much time vegging out, watching movies/video games, and doing light reading. I used to be able to digest one heavy tome of literature after another and now I've been trying to 'get into' Don Quixote for several years now. I am annoyed by my lack of social acceptance among my peers but I don't let myself get too upset about it because there isn't a whole lot I can actively do to improve things besides what I am already doing. I try to be observant and flexible in social situations so I can keep learning about my peers and I take opportunities as they come.

I am hardly bothered by other's achievements. If someone has a higher GPA than me, it's no skin off my back. People who do theatrical design (my major obsession) better than me don't bother me either. I fully know that I have long way to go in my studies of design. I do know good work when I see it and I am free with my praise of a great design.

I used to be very emotionally invested in talking to girls a while back, but when I've had friends, most of them were girls so I got over it eventually. So long as I am not actively flirting with them I am fine. I enjoy bantering with girls and they seem to like it too so long as it stays away from romance at which point they run for the hills screaming. I am not one of those desperate nice guys who only think about sex. I've been without it for 20 years, whats a few more? I'd prefer someone I can talk to and really relate to. If it gets physical from there, that's just a nice bonus. As Woody Allen said, “Sex is like bridge, if you don't have a good partner, you better have a good hand.” Wink



The qualities of these so called "Nice guys"

1) Boring predictable guys, limited interests, hates doing things (i.e. I dont want to go dancing, I hate dancing, etc... when he's really justifying his fear of being seen by others dancing)
I actually enjoy randomness. One time I saw a bunch of people in all black in the lounge and I asked them what they were up to. There were the Sneaking Around Club which is exactly what it sounds like. I threw on some black clothes myself and had a great time with them.

2) Non social, socially inept or totally asocial guys
I socialize whenever the opportunity arises which isn't terribly often. The few events I've tried to get together myself failed pretty badly.

3) Approval seeking and needy guys, who's ego's are crushed at the drop of a hat (girls have fun with these guys when they need an ego boost)
If I think someone (girl or guy) is f*****g with me, I ignore the jabs and go talk to someone else. I try to be good natured with everyone even if it does come off as naivety. When I was in high school, I could be made upset very easily and people would deliberately upset me so that my outburst would give them amusement. Eventually I learned that if people can't get a rise out of you, there's not much fun in the insults and they loose interest.

4) Overly Emotional, tense and fearfully anxious guys, giving off really bad vibes (body language) when in social situations!
I don't think I give off this vibe but I might be wrong.

5) Depressed, lifeless and moody guys who can't enjoy much of anything (You are so not fun! Girls hate these guys!)
I'm more moody and depressed than is good for me so you have me there. Then again, sometimes I talk about depressing thing in a casual and neutral way. For instance, I was having a rough night and the next day my room mates asked me what was wrong the night before and I matter-a-factly told them I have depression and that it gets bad like that every so often. They told me they were surprised I was so neutral about it after the fact. It's just something I've lived with for a long time and it is just something I have to deal with.

6) Socailly inept / Forced socialization guys (I don't want to be here, I'm trying to placate you to bypass engaging you as a human being, I just want the sex, please give it to me!)
If I don't like being somewhere, I'll leave, so this is not a problem for me.

7) Needy, Clueless supplicating guys (Oh women, you are all goddesses, I will worship you forever, bring you teddy bear, bring flowers to you on the first date, call you 50 times a day, just to hear your voice!)
Self-deprecating guys, guys who's self worth is in the pits.
I admire girls for what's in their head not what's in between their legs. If I had a girlfriend, I would probably err on the side of not spending enough time with her or talking to her. I'm very habituated to a solitary life.

9) Guys who can't stop being serious all the time
Yeah, I am pretty serious a lot of the time though one time I was working late in the theater on sound and I heard some other students in one of the work rooms. They were working on publicity with a little liquid inspiration. They offered me a beer and I drank it while talking to them. We later went outside and smoked some pot (yay being a theater major). After that I went back to work. So I don't think I'm that serious all the time.

10) Guys who treat interaction with girls way too seriously (i.e. like every move they make, if wrong, may cause the world to blow up!).
Not for me. I try to watch their body language so if I'm digging myself into a hole I can see it in their reaction and stop what ever I'm doing to annoy.

11) Non talkative guys, or guys that are stressed to make conversation. (This may be a result of information processing issues or learning disabilities, but mostly the result of lack of practice and not enough experience socializing)
If the other person hold up their end of the conversation, I'm fine. I'm not good at drawing quiet people out and that makes me nervous but not normal conversation.

12) Guys that have no goals or ambition (read: Work ethic)
I work my ass off.

13) Guys that still live with their mothers until they are 30 or older. (Read: lacking responsibility and independence)
I'm already out of the house. I love my folks but I like my independence.


I'd say that I don't have a lot of the characteristics of nice guys you laid out but I seem to get treated the same as the nice guys you describe.

I think I try to be more helpful than your average person and people could take that as me being a carpet. I am always glad to help if equipment is not working. If there are equipment emergencies after hours and on weekends, I'm the person people call to fix it. No one wants to call a prof at 12:30 at night. I do this willingly and cheerfully because I'd like to think they'd do the same for me. Some might call this weakness, I call it simple decency.
I try to be nice to the people working under me. I never ask them to do anything I wouldn't do myself and I try to treat them with courtesy and respect. However, I often come off as either condescending or talking way over a person's head when it comes to tech and they get annoyed either way. I am always working on finding how much a person knows about tech so my explanations neither insult them nor go over their heads.


To sum up (phew): I have always acted to the best of my ability with respect and decency to my peers. I think I have avoided many of the problems you described with nice guys. However, I am a very lonely person and I have few friends and none of them close ones who I can really talk to. I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong and any further insight would be most welcome.


Sorry this is so self referential and rambling. I took it as an opportunity analyze my nice guy-ness and I learned a fair amount about myself.

Edit: Heh, at this moment Mordie and I have the exact same number of posts. Smile
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Mordy
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 2:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Maybe I'm not reading your point right but it seems to me you are describing the typical 16-22 year old male. Would you say that nice guys are the norm? If not, what is the difference between an average guy and a nice guy. Then again, I am mystified in the appeal of over-confident macho men. "

The list of what nice guys can turn into that I mentioned is not meant to be exhaustive by the way... it was just examples I could think of at the time off the top of my head.

I'm not sure you're really grasping (fully understsanding) what I'm saying, in the first post. Theres a difference in being a confident and pleasant person, and being a needy man who's in constant need of approval and re-assurance of his self worth from women.

The difference is in the way "Nice guys" approach social interaction with women. They don't really know how to tease and flirt with girls, and they don't understand the principles of bonding and communication. It's hard to explain but get a copy of DoubleYourDating by david DeAngelo to get an idea, most guys have the wrong perspective (i.e. wrong attitude) and poor selfworth/sefl-esteem and they become basically, overgrown babies. This turns off girls majorly.

In general Girls communicate in a rapport style, "nice" guys communicate in an efficient, rather emotionless fact oriented style, this doesn't mean you can't communicate that way, but your entire engagement with a girl should be about stimulating her mind and emotions, being playful, silly, telling interesting stories, and having a passion for life (i.e. enthusiasm, being interesting) or have interesting things to say that she's interested in or cares about. Bonding happens when you connect on the experiences that elicit shared emotions, you dont have to be similar you just need to find emotional common ground. Say a guy likes pepsi, and a girl likes something else, its not the drinks that matter, its how those drinnks make them feel when they experience drinking them that they connect and bond over. (as a simple example).

The biggest problem with nice guys is their needyness and need for approval, they need ego reconstruction surgery pronto and they have to stop looking at girls and women as these bastions of light and purity, which they are not. Girls are just as horrible as any other human beings.
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Mordy
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
"It seems to me that you are saying the cause of nice guy-ness is the lack of socialization as a kid combined with false expectations of life caused by commercialism."


The effects of commercialist capitalist systems, i.e. the drive for profit and efficiency, via competition leaves parents without time or resources to grow and develop as a family in modern society.

Quote:
"I have been fairly self analytical all my life. I think that people seek entertainment to keep from thinking about themselves and their lives too much. It can be frightening to look at yourself deeply because, I think, guys want to believe that if they get a good job, money, a hot chick to sleep with them, and a big screen TV, they will be happy. At least it is something definite you can work towards and the media is full of people (celebs and CEOs) who have apparently achieved this bourgeois happiness. Of course it has been proven time and time again that a rich lifestyle and capitalistic achievement can't buy happiness. A while back Psychology Today ran an article about CEOs being more susceptible to depression than your average Joe (Read it here). As for me, I still struggle to understand the nature of happiness or a fulfilled life. There are no easy answers."


I should write a post on the meaning of life haha... most "happyness" has to do with fulfilling evolutionary goals within the organism, and some other interesting evolutionary phenomena that would be labelled "pseudo scientific" in today's harsh dogmatic climate.

Quote:
"I would say that poor parenting and the consumer society were not major contributors to my nice guy-ness and I certainly show some of the characteristics you wrote of."


Well that's a matter of opinion, since that is only ONE factor of "Nice guyness" the other is clueless parents, remember the paragraph in my post about "immature kids giving birth to kids?". The same applies, many parents are clueless about social interaction and women, period.

Quote:
"Getting into my self criticism: I find that the most difficult person to please is myself."


Again this has to do with your performance tied to your self esteem like I said, even if you are only measuring it against your self!

Quote:
"Often times my work goes far beyond what is required of me and yet I am not satisfied with it. An average person would not even notice the extra effort so it's not like I'm trying to impress anyone."


Still deep down you are performance concerned... re-read my post about how you measure your self worth in terms of performing, you are doing exactly what I said!

Quote:
"I am annoyed by my lack of social acceptance among my peers but I don't let myself get too upset about it because there isn't a whole lot I can actively do to improve things besides what I am already doing. I try to be observant and flexible in social situations so I can keep learning about my peers and I take opportunities as they come."


I don't necessarily believe you can't do anything to improve your social acceptance, I will make some more posts later...

Quote:
"I am hardly bothered by other's achievements. If someone has a higher GPA than me, it's no skin off my back."


Again I mentioned this in my post, how guys don't care about school or their marks, but I was not "specific" about it (i.e. measuring your self-worth in comparison to others marks).

Quote:
"I used to be very emotionally invested in talking to girls a while back, but when I've had friends, most of them were girls so I got over it eventually. So long as I am not actively flirting with them I am fine. I enjoy bantering with girls and they seem to like it too so long as it stays away from romance at which point they run for the hills screaming."


And why do they run away for the hills screaming? heheh... I bet I you could find a number of things you're doing wrong if you hung around the pickup community.

Quote:
"4) Overly Emotional, tense and fearfully anxious guys, giving off really bad vibes (body language) when in social situations!

I don't think I give off this vibe but I might be wrong. "


You need someone to film you from the third person and then see yourself, then you will be aware of what you're projecting, I didn't understand this until I was 22 years old and saw myself on camera for the first time. Many guys are oblivious to the image they project even though they've been looking at themselves in the mirror for 20+ years. Get someone with a camera phone to record you socializing for a while and send it to you, you'll be amazed.

Quote:
"If the other person hold up their end of the conversation, I'm fine. I'm not good at drawing quiet people out and that makes me nervous but not normal conversation."


The problem is (that I've discovered) is the cool guys always lead the conversation... always have things to talk about and aren't afraidto snip other peoples threads or wait for them to be finished if they are bringing the conversation down (be prepared).

Quote:
"To sum up (phew): I have always acted to the best of my ability with respect and decency to my peers. I think I have avoided many of the problems you described with nice guys. However, I am a very lonely person and I have few friends and none of them close ones who I can really talk to. I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong and any further insight would be most welcome."


I got tonnes of stuff I can give you, just PM me or email me at latn702@hotmail.com
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yesplease
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Couldn't we just say that most find sycophants annoying and leave it at that? Razz
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 2:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mordy wrote:
hey don't really know how to tease and flirt with girls, and they don't understand the principles of bonding and communication. It's hard to explain but get a copy of DoubleYourDating by david DeAngelo to get an idea, most guys have the wrong perspective (i.e. wrong attitude) and poor selfworth/sefl-esteem and they become basically, overgrown babies. This turns off girls majorly.

In general Girls communicate in a rapport style, "nice" guys communicate in an efficient, rather emotionless fact oriented style, this doesn't mean you can't communicate that way, but your entire engagement with a girl should be about stimulating her mind and emotions, being playful, silly, telling interesting stories, and having a passion for life (i.e. enthusiasm, being interesting) or have interesting things to say that she's interested in or cares about. Bonding happens when you connect on the experiences that elicit shared emotions, you dont have to be similar you just need to find emotional common ground. Say a guy likes pepsi, and a girl likes something else, its not the drinks that matter, its how those drinnks make them feel when they experience drinking them that they connect and bond over. (as a simple example).

I think you're taking this David DeAngelo guy too seriously. He acts like a cocky, arrogant jerk; he talks like a cocky, arrogant jerk; so guess what: I'm assuming he is. I don't know about you, but the last time I trusted a cocky, arrogant jerk's opinion on anything was approximately never. I'm generally a pretty live-and-let-live kind of guy, but when I hear this type of person obnoxiously spouting off their ignorance, an irritation wells up from deep inside me; sometimes I get this irresistible compulsion to tell them off.

David DeAngelo thinks the solution to your problems is to be more like him. To me that sounds like raw narcissism. It's true low self-esteem, high social anxiety and inhibition, and depression are all going to hurt you, but if you can clear all those things up, it's really just about building your own interesting life, and that's what women go for. Whining about how life sucks on a computer in your mom's basement isn't going to get you very far in life. Yes, some women like quiet, sensitive men who can hold meaningful conversations about philosophy, literature, art, science, and world affairs; more don't. That's life. But if you just hate life and grouch all the time, no women are going to like you because you don't even like yourself.

1. Like yourself.
2. Enjoy your life.
3. Socialize a little bit and expand your social contacts.
4. Be friendly and receptive to women you encounter along the way and let the chips fall where they may.

You don't need any shady seduction techniques or glib come-ons if you can master those four things.
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Aspie_Chav
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 4:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don’t have the time to read this but when I do I will have a lot to say. One thing is for sure aspies get confused with a lot types they are not. One person thought that I was gay.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 4:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree NeantHumain. While I do see the value of positive thinking, making yourself believe you're the Fonz doesn't make you the Fonz. Most of my interests are unusual or downright boring to your average person. I'm not negative about that fact, it is just that odd things fascinate me. When 9 out of 10 things you think about have no general appeal whatsoever, you have a fairly limited set of topics to talk about. I'm sure this is a problem a lot of Aspies have to deal with. I have no desire to dumb myself down by just pretending my obsessions don't exist because then I would come across as shallow and boring.

I've read a fair amount of Double Your Dating so far and I have found some of it to be useful and some of it not so useful. For instance, I do need to do something about my cave hermit appearance, something I've neglected for a while. No one likes an unkempt and ungroomed man. However, I wouldn't want to be around a woman who would ignore me if I'm a little messy and be all over me if I put some crap in my hair and wear the latest processed and repackaged B.O. (cologne). That strikes me as a rather shallow type of person. The same goes for girls who need to be manipulated or "managed" in order to get close to them. I don't care how hot or good in bed she might be, it's not worth it for me. It's the girls with the keen minds and deep personalities that are worth the effort and I should think that they aren't the type to play games.

I also don't see why a man should have to be as dominant as DeAngelo seems to think. Take for instance:
Quote:
Never give a woman a direct answer… unless the answer is NO. (p.67)

This strikes me as simply ridiculous. Why would I want a woman who only sticks around because I'm an as*hole or a woman who is so insecure that she needs to be constantly testing me? Also, it is against my integrity to toy with a woman as he talks about on page 75. A real woman wouldn't put up with that shit:
Quote:
When I first met one particular girl, I took her hand
when she got into the car and held it for a few seconds...
then took it away saying, “No hand holding this early”, as
if it were her idea... then at lunch, I put out my hand for
her to take it and then when she went to take it, I moved
it before she touched me... then did it again... and again
saying, “No, really...”
Finally, after the meal was finished, I reached out for
her hand, and she wouldn’t take mine because I had
teased her so much. So I actually grabbed her hand and
held it and massaged it. This was teasing and
teasing...and when she finally gave up, I gave it to her.
Then, when I gave her a hug later on, she kissed me
on the cheek or neck a couple of times, and I accused her
of kissing me a lot, etc. (The idea is that she’s into me
and she’s the aggressor.) One part of this is me doing
something (holding her hand) and then accusing her of
doing it (“no hand holding this early”).
This kind of behavior, sending mixed messages, and
flirting doesn’t really make sense to most men, but to
women it’s magic.


I just don't think that the humor and arrogance is a combination that will work for me. I am at my best around women when I am ballroom dancing. I am a calmly confident but gentle leader. If I screw up, I good naturedly apologize. So long as your not sycophantic about it, I see no reason to show a woman that you appreciate their company. I find that calm, low key confidence with a wry sense of humor/appreciation of the absurd is much more attractive to me.

To sum up: if you want to get laid, by all means follow DeAngelo, I have no doubt his method would work for that, but I'd bet you'd only attract shallow and bitchy hotties. I doubt that a truly intelligent and mature woman would give a guy like DeAngelo the time of day. If comes down to choosing between loneliness and being someone I'm not, I'll pick loneliness.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 4:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aspie_Chav wrote:
I don’t have the time to read this but when I do I will have a lot to say. One thing is for sure aspies get confused with a lot types they are not. One person thought that I was gay.


I'm sure people have thought I'm gay at some point or other. I'm looking forward to your input. I think this is a topic that is well worth discussing even if we don't all agree.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A very thoughtful post by Mordy. Clearly, a lot of work has gone into it.

I think that there may be men out there who fall into the ‘Nice Guy’ category and yet have not been subject to some or all of the influences that ? mentions in his original posting (bad parenting, economic hardship etc). Those influences may have some effect on some aspects of ‘Nice Guy’ behaviour, but they may not explain it fully.

I haven’t read the book by David De Angelo. However, the sort of behaviour described in the post by NeantHumain is something that I just could not bring myself to do. I find it rather crass and cringe inside just thinking about it. However, it must work for some people. We may think of that behaviour as cocky and arrogant, but other people don’t. A woman’s view about such behaviour would be very interesting. I try to dress well, look after my appearance and try to maintain a conversation, yet I still find myself in the ‘Nice Guy’ category. Admittedly, I do find social interaction mentally taxing, and maybe that shows and puts people off.

I think that the ‘Nice guy’ topic has come up before, but it’s still worth discussing. Also, perhaps some of the female visitors to this site could add their input. I, for one, would find their views invaluable.


"O would some power the giftie gie us to see ourselves as others see us." - Robert Burns
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MikeH106
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 1:18 pm    Post subject: Re: How “Nice guys” are made, The ultimate post Reply with quote

Don't you think it was nice for engineers and construction workers to build your house for you? What about programmers, who gave you the ability to participate on this forum with us? What about President Bush, who fights terrorism and looks after an entire country? Don't you think that's nice of him?

This is part of how we establish our worth: by being nice. It's a very simple concept. Generosity = pleasure.

Your post is well-written but, in my opinion, too long-winded. It would help us to condense it a little.

Mordy wrote:
How “NICE GUYS” are made, its relation to AS, and why they finish last --

The first, and last word on how "nice guys" the bane of all women's existence... are created!


I encourage you to change your focus to a group of people other than that of nice guys. The term nice guy is often used as the opposite of bad boy. By criticizing us, you make it appear that our only alternative is to move further in the "bad" direction of the bad boy continuum (if that can be said to exist). You may think all nice guys have the traits you list, but this is a fallacy we call affirming the consequent. Just because certain people usually end up nice guys doesn't mean that every nice guy is an instance of that kind of person.

Throughout your post, you insist that you're only talking about most nice guys. To show this, you would need to begin with the premise that someone is a nice guy, and then deduce that he probably has the traits you mention, not, as you do, begin with someone's problems and explain how it would get him to be nice.

Quote:
Ok you’ve all heard the term “Nice guys finish last”, but no one has ever defined the features of “the nice guy”, and what is it that goes into making the "Nice guy"? That annoying, whiny, wimpy, overgrown child, with no backbone to speak of? ... Most nice guys have traits in common, mainly being approval seeking, needy, "emotionally unstable", tense, serious, depressed...


A stereotype, as stated alone.

Quote:
I will explain how guys become “Nice guys”


As I have explained, you affirm the consequent. Although you have offered one reason for why some guys are nice guys, you can't reason backward and tell us that every nice guy began like that. Nor can you criticize someone's niceness for how it came to be.

For example, men can be born nice.

Quote:
Now there are different types of “nice guys”, and not all nice guys have the same problems, traits or qualities, so keep this in mind. I will go into detail about the problems of society, and how these problems effect the development of boys and how they are basically in environments in which they acquire "Nice guy syndrome".


Already, you're singling out a group of people as having a "nice guy syndrome"--something possibly different from merely being a nice guy--and yet you have offered no criteria by which someone can be said to have it. I suggest you enlighten us now if you wish to convince us.

In summary, you need to shorten your post and improve the quality of your reasoning.
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Revenant
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I too, can recommend David's book to every nice guy out there.
I was in for quite an enlightenment as I basically read about myself when he described the "nice guy".
The term is to me, quite ironic considering what impression women actually get from nice guys. I think "twisted guy" is a better term because they(and I've been there too!) are cautious and behave like walking on eggs just to get in a womans path. Truth is, a woman rates a man by how he makes her feel. Women want unpredictable mysterious guys which is why they always fall for the "bad boy". Its not the rudeness they find attractive, but how unpredictable he is. She never knows what he is up to and this is exciting to her! Also, he is a rebel who doesn't conform to societys rules and this sets him apart from the "nice guys". The "jerk" however, is a bad boy who has gone too far. Women can spot his frustration and bad experiences with women in the way he manifests his angst as female-hatred.

I can go on for hours, but I feel that the threadstarter covered most of it already.

But to sum it up:

There is nothing wrong in being nice, but she will know when you kiss her ass just to get in her pants.
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MikeH106
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I understand about the attraction of mystery, but how do you incorporate unpredictability into your personality in a rational way? What about pleasant surprises, like flowers? Is that something a bad boy would do?
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Prophet of The Future
Phoenix


Joined: Sep 07, 2006
Age: 126
Posts: 13838
Location: Mount Herculaneum/England

PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What about "nice girl" syndrome? Razz
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Revenant
Phoenix
Phoenix


Joined: Nov 25, 2006
Posts: 547

PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I understand about the attraction of mystery, but how do you incorporate unpredictability into your personality in a rational way? What about pleasant surprises, like flowers? Is that something a bad boy would do?


Lets say you're going out with a chick. You meet her and you say: "You know what? We're going to <name of place>...". This way, you are leading her which adds to your "leadership score". If you've been out several times with her, make sure to take her out to different places all the time. This way, she'll never know what you're up to, and it ensures that each "date"(I don't like that word) is suprising. You'll become the mystery man. I seriously doubt the flower thing will work unless you're already a couple. The clue about seduction is to get her to chase you. If you're giving her flowers, she is in control of the situation because she now sees your intentions. This doesn't mean that you should never be nice to girls(Theres a fine balance) though.

A bad boy would never do that, and thats adding to his attraction. It places him on top of the "pecking order" because he is the alpha male and chooses what female to mate with. He doesn't have to prove anything (with flowers or whatever) since he is number one. I am sure Mordy can fill in more specifically on this issue as my knowledge is limited at this stage. But I'm learning.
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