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gbollard
K’Anpo no... Cho-Je... whatever.
Joined: Oct 06, 2007
Age: 40
Posts: 4408
Location: Sydney, Australia
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 Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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Maybe I'm not reading widely enough but I haven't seen any posts on the topics Pandora is upset about.
| Quote: | | That's not what I meant by sicko. I meant people talking about child p@rn, bestiality, and other way out there topics. There are specific websites for those kinds of things. By tacitly encouraging them in a website such as this, it leaves the admin potentially open to many troublesome situations. |
If I had seen these topics discussed, I wouldn't want to read them (well, perhaps my curiosity would get the better of me). I agree with Pandora that these topics don't need to be on WP.
Pandora's other comments about aspies in general;
| Quote: | | The real danger with the topics I mentioned at the very top is we already have a bad rap in the media for being mentally unbalanced, prone to violence, and even perversion. We need to clean up our image so that we can be seen as better people by the rest of the community. We don't need to encourage things that will make us look any worse than we are already painted. |
...are also quite valid. Particularly in Australia. For many Australians, the first time they were aware of aspies was when the Port Arthur Massacre was blamed on Aspergers. The diagnosis was later refuted but too late for the general public.
You have to assume that journalists pretending to be aspies are reading this forum and will jump on topics of sensationalism.
RE: WP Moderators
Yes, sometimes I think you've been a little slow (permissive) to jump into situations but overall I think you're doing a pretty good job - (Congratulations and thanks). Unfortunately being a moderator is a thankless job because everyone has different levels of tolerance.
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Gavin.
http://life-with-aspergers.blogspot.com/ |
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wsmac
WP Elevator Operator - What Floor Please?
Joined: Sep 01, 2007
Posts: 2879
Location: Humboldt County, Little Blue House on the Hill
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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The problem with shoving uninhibited thought out the door to some 'special place' on the 'net is that it's just pushing these things into a different type of closet.
The idea that these things do not belong here on WP is elitist and ignorant.
People with AS, ADHD, etc. desire a place to talk openly. This is the place to do that.
Expressing personal things thought to be rare, perverse, etc. and finding out there are other people just like you or who have just as 'weird' things about them is a positive experience not a negative.
Wrong Planet is for people who already feel outside the 'norm'. I have never seen this as a place where we can only speak specifically about AS, Autism, and ADHD.
It's a place for people like us to have a forum to express ourselves when we believe there is no other place we can do so.
Saying a member should take their talk of certain thoughts and behaviors, the likes of what I have been defending here, to some special website for people who are 'way out there' or 'perverts', etc, is ignorant.
It's playing the same game of censorship and repression that the so-called NT's play.
This is the place where people can see how they actually relate to other people who all fall under the umbrella of this 'spectrum'.
It sort of feels like a family where the mom, dad, and siblings tell one child to take her/his questions elsewhere because the rest of the family is just too uncomfortable with the topics that one member has questions about.
If we cannot express ourselves openly here... amongst those we relate to... then what sort of expression and learning do you suppose will happen on those other 'special' website you people want us to go to?
And I include myself in this group of people you are trying to suppress.
I have spoken about my sexuality and gender issues, although I don't believe I have gone into too graphic a detail.
Still, once you clean up Wrong Planet of the ilk that turns our stomach, how long will it be before you turn on me?
I still believe that the only way to correct ignorant assumptions about people with AS, ADD/HD, Autism, etc, is to allow free expression when that expression does not cause harm to others.
I also believe the whole world would be better off once we accepted the fact that every person on this earth has some idiosyncrasy that other's would not understand or appreciate.
It's about acceptance and as long as you keep trying to refrain from being accepting, and keep sweeping it all under the rug... you help continue the myths that hurt our societies.
Whew... I need to get back over to the post about Macallan hiding in the coat rack... I need a good laugh 
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shadexiii
Tanuki
Joined: Dec 16, 2006
Posts: 4013
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 3:50 pm Post subject: |
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| wsmac wrote: | | The idea that these things do not belong here on WP is elitist and ignorant. |
The decision that these things do not belong here is one left up to Alex. (Realized that this could be taken that I agree that it is elitist and ignorant, and that I'm trying to point a finger. Not my view, or my intention. >_<)
To play devil's advocate, you stated that you have an issue with child pornography. I do as well, and pedophilia also, in fact I find both to be appalling. That being said, if this is to truly be a place of open discussion for anything and everything, shouldn't that be permitted? Does it really matter that the act is illegal, if it is merely being discussed here, and potentially only the subject, but not acts involved with it?
As I already stated, I don't think it should be here, or anywhere for that matter, but I have a bit of a problem with the slippery slope argument, since it can be used both ways.
| wsmac wrote: | | Still, once you clean up Wrong Planet of the ilk that turns our stomach, how long will it be before you turn on me? |
I don't think there will be many here that view previously mentioned subjects as being at all related to gender issues. Gender issues are an exploration of the individual, who the individual is, and that should certainly be welcomed here, since discussion of topics relevant to AS are similar in that regard.
Some members may take issue with some things surrounding gender issues, some may disagree with the subject, some may even go so far as to call it perverse, but I think (or at least hope) that there isn't anyone that would group that subject with some of the problem issues already stated.
It isn't as simple as removing things that are "of the ilk that turns our stomach." If that were the case, some people would probably already have asked that I be removed. |
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alex
Developer
Joined: Jun 14, 2004
Age: 23
Posts: 6492
Location: DC Metro Area (No. VA)
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 4:11 pm Post subject: |
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The issues you are describing are problems in our society, not Wrong Planet which merely serves the society at large. Wrong Planet permits some things that society at large deems inappropriate but we do have to keep in mind the fact that if we allwed certain topics deemed inappropriate by society that most people would no longer feel comfortable using the site.
Discussion of prostitution is allowed on WrongPlanet because I feel that limiting an open discourse on something like this would have a negative effect on the large number of aspies who do want to discuss it. I personally would never pay someone else for sex but I also believe that people should be allowed to pay for sex if they want. Granted, prostitution is illegal in some places, but so is marijuana, a drug with medicinal benefits! I've never done marijuana and I don't plan on using it but I believe it should be legalized for people to use in the privacy of their own home.
Child pornography and bestiality, on the other hand, harm living creatures and are against the rules here. |
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wsmac
WP Elevator Operator - What Floor Please?
Joined: Sep 01, 2007
Posts: 2879
Location: Humboldt County, Little Blue House on the Hill
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 9:04 pm Post subject: |
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Alex, I'm glad you posted that.
Looking back at my posts, I realize my fault is in knowing what I am thinking and not putting it all out in my writing... much like when I'm talking to people.
I was going to come back here earlier and write that this is your site.
You are the final authority on what is acceptable here and what is not.
I do not have a problem with censorship if it is done by the owner or inline with the owner's wishes.
I do have a problem when people complain about reading posts that they could easily pass on.
I have passed posts many times.
Realizing there are children accessing this website, I do like to see people keep this in mind when posting.
But, these same kids are likely to see much worse elsewhere on the web.
I have strong beliefs about suppressing thought when doing so seems more harmful than allowing expression.
Through expression, we can have education.
Through questioning, we can have education.
This education can help people learn just as much about themselves as others.
This is a big benefit to us all and it's a shame some people feel the need to quash this.
I can tell you that from my experience... if I had the accessibility to information like we have here... I would not have had the personal issues that harmed me for so many years of my life.
I do include discussions of wearing diapers, masturbation, prostitutes, etc. to be of value precisely for that reason.
I'm not an anomoly... anymore.
For the last several years I have learned how normal I really am in the context of greater society.
I just hope more people can open up their minds and possibly find this openness when trying to sort out their own worries, confusions, self-esteem issues.
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gbollard
K’Anpo no... Cho-Je... whatever.
Joined: Oct 06, 2007
Age: 40
Posts: 4408
Location: Sydney, Australia
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 10:08 pm Post subject: Thanks Alex |
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Thanks Alex - Great to have that one cleared up.
I'm sure if we had a poll about the two main "problem areas" raised in this discussion and included NTs and Aspies, we'd find that it's a human condition that isn't influenced one way or another by AS. If it seems to occur more often in AS then IMHO it's only a product of AS being a bit more open/unbothered by such discussion.
At any rate, I'm sorry if I seem to be elitist but I don't like the idea of causing major offense to people here. Fine to offend a little, but if it looks like we're offending the majority, perhaps an idea should be discussed elsewhere.
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Gavin.
http://life-with-aspergers.blogspot.com/ |
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aeroz
Velociraptor
Joined: Nov 16, 2007
Age: 23
Posts: 458
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 10:44 pm Post subject: |
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first I will state this to show I am not completely unbais. I hate censorship. Now I do not swear, but if people want to every other word like a complete idiot, let them. People want to talk about sexual fetishes fine, if no one else agrees the thread will soon be buried long as no one replies.
I have aspergers, I have spent my entire life hiding most of my personality. My likes dislikes and odd interests. Alot of the things mentioned I do not condone, but I am tolerant and think a person should say what they want. I want a place to talk about these things and not be judged.
You have to remember interest in something isn't the same as doing it. Suppressing these urges to the point of self denile isn't healthy. What if the person is attracted to children for example. Then isn't it better to have them talk about this and seek help then to keep quiet about it. Not to mention making something taboo might just make a person more interested in it.
Oh and Pandora I've seen some of your posts in what you deem inappropriate. You dont talk about why you believe something is wrong, its often "____ is stupid" and thats about it. That isn't a statement of disapproval, thats flamming. I'm not 100% on this forum, but in all I have gone to that is always undesired behavior. Incidently thats why I didn't check, I always assume that isn't allowed. Even if you disagree, what gives you the right to be the moral authority to deem what is, and is not right.
I cannot help what I like, no one can. If something I like shouldn't be done then I do not do it, instead I find an acceptable outlet. For example, if I am in a violent mood I play a game to vent. Allowing discussion of questionable behavior allows people to learn more about it. Find healthy outlets, people to talk the problem over with, ect. All suppressing it does is maintain things as is. And frankly if things were ok as is there wouldn't be a reason to discuss it.
Now if they talk about doing something blatently amoral like torture, then yea do something. Now if they wish to discuss their desire for it, then give them a forum to talk about it so people can tell them why its undesirable and possible alter their desire, or offer an acceptable outlet like finding a masocist or something.
Sorry if I got abit ranty, nasty habit of mine |
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SweXtal
Deinonychus
Joined: Nov 12, 2006
Age: 39
Posts: 322
Location: Mora, Sweden
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| Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:16 pm Post subject: Huh? |
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What illegality??
I don't even know if I should post a reply to this thread but I do it anyway. I think 99.9% of the WP users have learned what's appropriate or not, and then there's the rules. I try to follow the rules, but sometimes, as with my avatar, I just didn't see the obvious. (Thanks, Alex, for pointing that out. Most of you others can probably guess what letter I removed).
Sometimes, you just can't understand other people, because you can't see what they think is wrong. It has to do a lot of education, society, religious things, and your size of shoes. <grin>.
As previously stated, why do you read it if you don't want to read about it? Prostitution? The worlds oldest occupation... that's a fact... And it doesn't bother me. It's a occupation like everything else. I'm a server admin whore. I sell my services to those in need of it, and I take advantage of being good in my occupation.... What's the difference? In some countries being a server admin probably is illegal too. Or condemned as a plague by somebody. |
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wsmac
WP Elevator Operator - What Floor Please?
Joined: Sep 01, 2007
Posts: 2879
Location: Humboldt County, Little Blue House on the Hill
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| Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not sure why I didn't see this before I responded to Alex's post below yours shadexiii.
| shadexiii wrote: | | wsmac wrote: | | The idea that these things do not belong here on WP is elitist and ignorant. |
The decision that these things do not belong here is one left up to Alex. (Realized that this could be taken that I agree that it is elitist and ignorant, and that I'm trying to point a finger. Not my view, or my intention. >_<) |
As I posted after Alex, he owns this site and I will always follow the wishes of the person who owns the website.
I may disagree and post that disagreement, but I will never say that it's my 'right' to do what I want on someone else's site.
| shadexiii wrote: | | To play devil's advocate, you stated that you have an issue with child pornography. I do as well, and pedophilia also, in fact I find both to be appalling. That being said, if this is to truly be a place of open discussion for anything and everything, shouldn't that be permitted? Does it really matter that the act is illegal, if it is merely being discussed here, and potentially only the subject, but not acts involved with it? |
I will admit my typing leaves a bit to be desired sometimes.
I do not have a problem with discussing child pornography or abuse as long as it is done in the manner of seeking help or education.
I do think I mentioned somewhere above that I do not approve of talking about doing the act or promoting the act.
This comes down to a morality call and the fact that this is illegal.
So I do see my stand against child pornography/abuse in the context I have stated as being valid.
| shadexiii wrote: | | wsmac wrote: | | Still, once you clean up Wrong Planet of the ilk that turns our stomach, how long will it be before you turn on me? |
I don't think there will be many here that view previously mentioned subjects as being at all related to gender issues. Gender issues are an exploration of the individual, who the individual is, and that should certainly be welcomed here, since discussion of topics relevant to AS are similar in that regard.
Some members may take issue with some things surrounding gender issues, some may disagree with the subject, some may even go so far as to call it perverse, but I think (or at least hope) that there isn't anyone that would group that subject with some of the problem issues already stated. |
Thinking back over the range of topics that some members have suggested do not belong on WP, I can very easily see how my discussion of gender and sexuality could fall within their net.
It was suggested that some topics could be taken to other websites that 'cater' to these things.
There certainly are many websites specifically about gender issues and sexuality.
My problem is when people take issues such as prostitution and suggest they do not belong here. I think Alex and others have done a good job of addressing why such topics should be allowed here.
The remark I made concerning 'Elitism', was made to emphasize the call to make WrongPlanet a website where people discuss Asperger's Syndrome specifically, leaving out all other facets of anyone's life here in addition to their AS, or ADD/HD, etc.
I have not seen where that was the reason for this website to begin with.
| shadexiii wrote: | | It isn't as simple as removing things that are "of the ilk that turns our stomach." If that were the case, some people would probably already have asked that I be removed. |
Yeah.... you and that scary avatar of yours! 
When I get passionate about something... I tend to use wording that comes off fairly strong. Sometimes I try to soften it by using lots of smilies.
Unfortunately, the more impassioned I am... the faster I type... and I do not preview my post before hitting the Submit button.
I do want folks to know that all my postings here, though strongly worded at times, were/are never meant to show anger towards anyone. I respect your right to speak as well as mine.
When I use terms such as 'ignorant' and 'elitist', they are not used with malevolence. These words have meaning beyond the emotional usage they get in everyday conversation.
Anyway, I'm enjoying the comments here and I am learning something too.
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Spokane_Girl
There's no crying in baseball
Joined: Jul 17, 2007
Age: 24
Posts: 8666
Location: Rockford (hometown Oregon)
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| Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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I don't even know what is inappropriate to post. Some rules are too complicated to understand. If I see lot of inappropriate posts, posts you wouldn't see on any boards except for adult ones, messes me up so I post anything I want. That's why I don't post in the adult discussion anymore. Maybe I will someday but right now I won't.
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MrMark
Abstract Data Type
Joined: Jul 04, 2006
Age: 51
Posts: 10110
Location: Tallahassee, FL
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| Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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A part of what we try to do here is help people further their own development. The development of good judgment is a part of that. We try to work with people who appear to post in good faith to help them better understand what is acceptable.
Social rules are complicated. Mistakes will be made. We are influenced by the people around us. We have some control over who we allow ourselves to be influenced by. We have some choice in our associations.
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wsmac
WP Elevator Operator - What Floor Please?
Joined: Sep 01, 2007
Posts: 2879
Location: Humboldt County, Little Blue House on the Hill
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| Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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| MrMark wrote: | A part of what we try to do here is help people further their own development. The development of good judgment is a part of that. We try to work with people who appear to post in good faith to help them better understand what is acceptable.
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I like that a lot!
And I agree with it, even though some of my writing may seem to contradict the idea of developing good judgment and the responsibility that goes with it.
Thanks!
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wsmac
WP Elevator Operator - What Floor Please?
Joined: Sep 01, 2007
Posts: 2879
Location: Humboldt County, Little Blue House on the Hill
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| Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Spokane_Girl wrote: | | I don't even know what is inappropriate to post. Some rules are too complicated to understand. If I see lot of inappropriate posts, posts you wouldn't see on any boards except for adult ones, messes me up so I post anything I want. That's why I don't post in the adult discussion anymore. Maybe I will someday but right now I won't. |
Personally, I have found your posts (which others have deemed inappropriate at times) to be fine starters for a good conversation.
While the "digging with your finger" thread was a bit heavy for me to read at first, I realized that it's just another orifice of the body and I found I could handle it once I removed the negative feelings about it.
I deal with human waste and other fluids in my job at a hospital lab, so perhaps this has helped me grow less inhibited about such things.
People have created these negative feelings about certain parts of the body to where it's just plain ridiculous.
Take feet for example.
In the U.S. there are no laws that state it is a health code violation to enter a food establishment while barefoot.
I have seen submitted documentation to that fact and even have letters of my own from the health departments of California and Humboldt County, stating that they just don't care what's on my feet no matter where I go.
But, if I walk into a grocery store, or while sitting in a cafe... remove my sandals and sit barefoot (which is one of my quirks), someone will come up to me and read me the riot act for having bare feet there!
I have been asked to not enter a particular grocery store barefoot because:
1- It is a health code violation... when I mentioned I had letters refuting that, the reason changed all-of-a-sudden...
2- A customer complained about seeing me with barefeet
3- If I were to cut my foot on broken glass it would be a liability issue
etc.
At two coffee houses now, I have been asked to keep my sandals on whether I'm walking around or sitting at the table.
This is a small example of how our inhibitions get the better of us.
What's so terrible about my bare feet?
Certainly the bottoms of people's shoes are much worse as far as being 'clean' than my feet are.
The liability issue? Give me a break!
This has become the automatic response instead of just saying... "I don't like that!" ... especially when the complainer realized they have no valid argument to stand by. Saying it's a "liability issue" seems to hold some air of authority even when it is a falsehood.
This has been mentioned here also about the liability issues for the website.
Anyway... another rant...
In reality, there just aren't too many topics about our bodies that I can see as offensive and worth censorship.
But I acquiesce to the wishes of Alex and the moderators   
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shadexiii
Tanuki
Joined: Dec 16, 2006
Posts: 4013
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| Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 3:03 pm Post subject: |
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| wsmac wrote: |
The liability issue? Give me a break!
This has become the automatic response instead of just saying... "I don't like that!" ... especially when the complainer realized they have no valid argument to stand by. Saying it's a "liability issue" seems to hold some air of authority even when it is a falsehood.
This has been mentioned here also about the liability issues for the website.
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I'm not a lawyer (and no, I'm not going to ask if there's a lawyer in the house. ) but I'm pretty sure that they would be liable, if you were to injure yourself by stepping on something in the store. (If someone was once able to sue for coffee being "too hot," then it doesn't sound unlikely) Even if you had no desire to bring a lawsuit if something were to happen, some people would be all too eager to do just that. Whether or not that's the main reason that someone working with the store would ask you to put shoes back on, I can't really say. I guess it might be considered a bit more "polite" than just asking you to leave the store, assuming they had anything posted stating that they reserved the right to serve anyone. I know a lot of convenience stores have the "NO SHIRT, NO SHOES, NO SERVICE" signs. Maybe it is little more than people expecting a dress code of sorts, like a fancy restaurant requiring a man to wear a coat and tie.
I was never sure if there was a "policy" or anything for shoes while I was attending college, so the days that I went barefoot, I just strapped a pair of sandals to my backpack for when I entered buildings. At least for days that I didn't have some chemistry laboratory or another, for that I could appreciate the need for shoes, and substantial ones at that. Still, it was a bit of an inconvenience to have to carry sandals, but I just didn't want to deal with it.
Okay, I'm done derailing things. |
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wsmac
WP Elevator Operator - What Floor Please?
Joined: Sep 01, 2007
Posts: 2879
Location: Humboldt County, Little Blue House on the Hill
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| Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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I like 'Sidenote' better than 'derail'
Although I wish people thought differently about my barefeet, I still respect the authority of the store manager and realize if I wish to shop there I need to wear some foot covering.
As for the liability issue... if they dictate I must wear a foot covering, then aren't they taking on a liability by doing so?
Shouldn't they prescribe the 'proper' footwear for instore use?
Shower thongs wouldn't be much protection against broken glass with sharp edges sticking up.
Back to topic (oh, and even though your avatar does look a little threatening to me sometimes shadexiii, I'm glad you haven't been asked to leave ),
I brought up my foot story to help illustrate how people tend to create issues where none really exist.
My sitting at a table in a coffee shop with my sandals off, for example.
I am not prone to injury because of this.
Someone may find it offensive, but why? It's just a pair of feet... they don't stink, and they're clean.
What has happened in someone's mind to make a pair of bare feet offensive to them?
Same thing with people's genitals and anal area.
Why have these parts of the body become ugly, dirty, offensive to some people?
They're just a part of the body and as far as I know.. everyone has them in some shape or form, working or not.
Why do we cringe at the thought or sight of body discharge from 'down below' when what comes out of our mouth and nose can harbor just as many bacteria, etc.?
All that stuff that comes out of our bodies went in as a different form to begin with.
It's not any more alien to our body than when it went in in the first place... it's just un-needed for further use by our bodies.
People in some countries apparently wipe their bottoms with a hand.
If it's good enough for those folks, why isn't it okay for the rest of the world?
I'm just curious why these things are held to be so terrible to discuss when logically, they're no different from any other body part/function we discuss any other time.
I suppose this is all specifically relating to those posts that have dealt with such matter and been lambasted for it.
Can anyone tell me why discussion of body parts or body functions is offensive to them?
I'd like something more than just, "Well, I just don't like it!" or "It creeps me out!".
I'm genuinely interested in hearing why.
Thanks.
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