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MrMark
Abstract Data Type
Joined: Jul 04, 2006
Age: 51
Posts: 10110
Location: Tallahassee, FL
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 Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:02 am Post subject: |
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Everyone member has the privilge of expressing their opinion here, and of disagreeing with the opinions of others. We are one group here, but we are as diverse in our opinions as the general population.
As a team, the moderators try to be moderate. This means we neither allow completely free, unrestricted speech, nor do we engage in anything remotely like unbridled censorship.
_________________
"The cordial quality of pear or plum
Rises as gladly in the single tree
As in the whole orchards resonant with bees."
- Emerson |
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Pandora
Cat Lady
Joined: Jun 18, 2005
Age: 48
Posts: 4684
Location: Townsville
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| Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:11 am Post subject: |
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| gbollard wrote: | AliceinOz, I've only known about being an aspie for two years and have had a whole (reasonably successful) life and career before that. I don't have anything to hide and I'm not worried about people targeting me. I've got thick skin.
For me, being an aspie is as natural as breathing. It's my genetic makeup and I can't change it no matter how much people complain.
I've always felt that if I wanted to be taken seriously, I need to be honest about who I am. Aside from which, clicking on my links goes to my blogs etc, so people are bound to figure out who I am anyway. I've told the people that I work with about aspergers and my boss has even asked for the address of my blog. Since the aim of the blog is to increase knowledge about the condition, I was happy to supply it.
Your profile doesn't mention your occupation, so I'm not sure why you feel the need to hide. You obviously have your reasons though - so I won't pry.
I know it's against the rules but if you really felt that you wanted to discuss things (and if they didn't contain clues to your identity, you could create a second login). Other than that, I can't see a way you could protect your identity.
Oh and shadexiii, IMHO you are picking on Pandora. |
Thanks for your support here - I have no idea why shades has taken it into his head to pick on me tonight. I feel very disappointed in his attitude which I feel borders on bullying tactics.
It seems to me that there is a little clique in this website who want full freedom to discuss things that most people find abhorrent and they don't like it when anybody objects. Now I don't think shades has been very much involved in those discussions so I find it even more baffling that he would make the mean and uncalled for personal attacks on me that he did.
It even seems a bit like some kind of "boys' club" where these guys can metaphorically hide behind the dunny and say rude words and snigger to themselves. But it's not just rude, it is perverse and if the Feds were to read some of that stuff they would have an absolute field day.
What I'm saying is, we don't need to give the world at large any more reasons to marginalise us. I'm not ashamed to be called an Aspie by the way.
I also think AliceInOz and TheChosenOne have made very good points.
If being "elitist" means having some standards then call me "elitist". It's better than getting called a pervert.
_________________
Break out you Western girls,
Someday soon you're gonna rule the world.
Break out you Western girls,
Hold your heads up high.
"Western Girls" - Dragon
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shadexiii
Tanuki
Joined: Dec 16, 2006
Posts: 4013
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| Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:21 am Post subject: |
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| Pandora wrote: | | Thanks for your support here - I have no idea why shades has taken it into his head to pick on me tonight. I feel very disappointed in his attitude which I feel borders on bullying tactics. |
I'm not looking for your approval, and I'm not trying to bully you. If you would simply address my question regarding why you saw the need to bring up professional diagnoses, this would have likely been over long ago. (I won't deny that I can be incredibly obstinate at times.)
| Pandora wrote: |
It seems to me that there is a little clique in this website who want full freedom to discuss things that most people find abhorrent and they don't like it when anybody objects. Now I don't think shades has been very much involved in those discussions so I find it even more baffling that he would make the mean and uncalled for personal attacks on me that he did. |
It is insulting that you call them personal attacks, when I have taken issue with your words. I will not sit here and let you get away with calling it that, when you've outright avoided actually commenting on what I've brought up at times. If all you're going to do is basically call me names, aren't you the one doing the bullying, trying to get someone with a view at odds with your own to be quiet?
Since I apparently need to do so, I will reiterate what I took issue with:
1) You made accusations of harassment without giving the context, or any examples. If someone or several people have been "abusing" you, you should have already mentioned it to a moderator, but making such accusations without some sort of evidence is not fair to those you have accused, especially if they are unaware of the accusations being leveled against them.
2) You made a point to state that you had a professional diagnosis. You responded to my asking why by saying that there are valid reasons for not getting a diagnosis, which really didn't address what I was asking, and also brought up the issue of what a "valid" reason for not getting a diagnosis would be. I have a problem with this, because it can be divisive, among other things.
I have stated both points without attacking you personally. I would appreciate it if you could respond at least to the second point in kind.
| Pandora wrote: |
What I'm saying is, we don't need to give the world at large any more reasons to marginalise us. I'm not ashamed to be called an Aspie by the way. |
I'm responding to this from you because many have mentioned something like this, and I don't see the point in bringing up every last quote. We should not feel like we should censor ourselves as a group because of fears of how others might perceive us as a group. Everyone here is an individual, and should be treated as such. You yourself said that every group has good members, and bad members. Just by saying you don't approve of some of what has been discussed here, you've proven to anyone that might be observing things here that what you find to be questionable isn't the accepted "norm" for the group.
Last edited by shadexiii on Thu Dec 13, 2007 11:22 am; edited 1 time in total |
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MrMark
Abstract Data Type
Joined: Jul 04, 2006
Age: 51
Posts: 10110
Location: Tallahassee, FL
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| Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:37 am Post subject: |
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| Pandora wrote: |
It seems to me that there is a little clique in this website who want full freedom to discuss things that most people find abhorrent and they don't like it when anybody objects. |
There was such a group. They been thrown out, for their tactics, not their position. I suggested to them that they and their supporters band together and petition Alex for change. They chose less honorable tactics and got banned.
I now make the same suggestion to you. Bring your supporters together and petition Alex for change. I don't mean people who joined yesterday, I mean well-established members. If you don't feel he's hearing you, let me know and I'll make sure he hears you. There was recently a shift towards greater enforcement of the rules. Perhaps you're correct and a shift towards even greater enforcement of the rules is called for by the segment of the membership that is in the middle of the social/political spectrum. It certainly would make my job easier.
_________________
"The cordial quality of pear or plum
Rises as gladly in the single tree
As in the whole orchards resonant with bees."
- Emerson |
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The_Chosen_One
Lord of all who roam in my domain
Joined: Jul 27, 2007
Posts: 1371
Location: Looking down on humanity
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| Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:40 am Post subject: |
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Don't be so self-righteous, ShadeXIII. I've seen what you've said to some people on zOMG and you going off at Pandora for exprssing her point of view seems a little hypocritical. Just accept that we are ALL the same and get on with whatever discussion without carrying on like a two-bob watch. Oh, and BTW, there were probably some things I may have agreed with over there, but here I think you crossed the line.
_________________
Pagans are people too, not just victims of a religious cleansing program. Universal harmony for all!!
Karma decides what must happen, and that includes everyone. |
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shadexiii
Tanuki
Joined: Dec 16, 2006
Posts: 4013
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| Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:43 am Post subject: |
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| The_Chosen_One wrote: | | Don't be so self-righteous, ShadeXIII. I've seen what you've said to some people on zOMG and you going off at Pandora for exprssing her point of view seems a little hypocritical. Just accept that we are ALL the same and get on with whatever discussion without carrying on like a two-bob watch |
I asked for clarification on two points, and I expressed my views.
We are not all "the same," but we should all be treated equally. There is a difference.
| The_Chosen_One wrote: | | Oh, and BTW, there were probably some things I may have agreed with over there, but here I think you crossed the line. |
Then there's something we disagree on. It is rare for two people to agree on everything. As for the hypocritical part, I can only assume that it was regarding the comment on accusations without the accused being aware. If you looked at my posts there, you'd find that I've not done that in some time, at least to my knowledge. More than that, several people that I once had expressed problems with over there I now have a lot of respect for. |
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The_Chosen_One
Lord of all who roam in my domain
Joined: Jul 27, 2007
Posts: 1371
Location: Looking down on humanity
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| Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 11:27 am Post subject: |
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That's good to see. I can't exactly speak for what Pandora was saying, although I think I get the gist of it, and with the diagnosis thing, it could be that wwhile some people say they are self-diagnosed, and others say they have a medical diagnosis, there are some people who think that one or the other are better than the other, and thus they look down their nose at those that they consider different. Same with Aspies and NTs; I've seen comments by some Aspies that imply that thaey are more superior than NTs because of their condition, and these are very blatant remarks. Now, I don't really see any difference because to me everyone is the same, whether they be Aspie, NT, self-diagnosed or medically-diagnosed. The only thing is, as I said earlier, is that in an employment situation, a boss might prefer a doctor's letter to explain the condition in case of a meltdown, and to back up the diagnosis in case of OH&S and insurance. They may not see self-diagnosis as a definitive proof that their employee has AS, and thus may think the meltdown is a put-on. Get me? Anyway, if that's not quite it, she will explain.
_________________
Pagans are people too, not just victims of a religious cleansing program. Universal harmony for all!!
Karma decides what must happen, and that includes everyone. |
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shadexiii
Tanuki
Joined: Dec 16, 2006
Posts: 4013
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| Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 11:38 am Post subject: |
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| The_Chosen_One wrote: | | That's good to see. I can't exactly speak for what Pandora was saying, although I think I get the gist of it, and with the diagnosis thing, it could be that wwhile some people say they are self-diagnosed, and others say they have a medical diagnosis, there are some people who think that one or the other are better than the other, and thus they look down their nose at those that they consider different. Same with Aspies and NTs; I've seen comments by some Aspies that imply that thaey are more superior than NTs because of their condition, and these are very blatant remarks. Now, I don't really see any difference because to me everyone is the same, whether they be Aspie, NT, self-diagnosed or medically-diagnosed. The only thing is, as I said earlier, is that in an employment situation, a boss might prefer a doctor's letter to explain the condition in case of a meltdown, and to back up the diagnosis in case of OH&S and insurance. They may not see self-diagnosis as a definitive proof that their employee has AS, and thus may think the meltdown is a put-on. Get me? |
Hah, I think we're back to agreeing on things. That was why I had an issue with it, that I didn't see why it would be necessary, at least in the context here, to bring up being officially diagnosed. I do not know her views on such things, so I didn't want to just openly accuse her of viewing individuals without a professional diagnosis as being less, in some way or another, though I suppose I could have done a bit better job expressing that. This is something that's really important to me, the issue of people viewing others as their equals, be it any of the cases you brought up, AS / NT, professional diagnosis / self-diagnosis, any of it. I've probably made some people sick of it by now, from at times commenting that one (or several) NT is not a good representative of all NTs.
I also appreciate the employment side of things, that's why I've considered forcing myself to go back to a professional, and a specialist for that matter, in case I have similar difficulties on the job that I had during college and before. But, I'm just not ready to give seeing a psychiatrist or psychologist another shot quite yet. Even the knowledge that it would be a specialist hasn't really helped, since the experience should be different, and it is only logical to assume that they would be better trained for it, but if I was an entirely logical creature I wouldn't check my fridge to see if my cat got shut in it nearly every time I get something out of there. -___-
I probably should have also held off until I had slept for a bit, but if I wasn't browsing the forums I had no idea what I'd be able to do to pass the time while I dealt with insomnia.  |
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gbollard
K’Anpo no... Cho-Je... whatever.
Joined: Oct 06, 2007
Age: 40
Posts: 4409
Location: Sydney, Australia
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| Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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shadexiii,
You said;
| Quote: | | 1) You made accusations of harassment without giving the context, or any examples. |
The important thing here is that Pandora mentioned that she felt harassed. That should have been the clue to let up on her. It's obvious that the two of you won't find a middle ground in this case, so there's probably no need to continue arguing about it - there won't be a winner.
I didn't like the fact that Pandora brought her diagnosis into the argument because I know there's a lot of diagnosed vs undiagnosed contention at WP and I couldn't see how the statement would help.
We all type things in that we regret after hitting submit - I just assumed that once Pandora realized how the statement would be interpreted she thought oops. Note that she hasn't brought it up again - just tried to defend herself.
I'm not sure what the solution to the "real" problem of whether or not to post certain material in forums. Perhaps if some sort of agreement could be reached - maybe exclude certain topics from RSS?
I know that there's a "women's forum" which may or may not be locked down - I've never tried to access it. Maybe there needs to be a "pervert's forum" - ok perhaps not that particular name.
Pandora: If WP had to have the "sniggering boys behind the toilet" forums, what do you think they would need to do to make sure they didn't offend?
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Gavin.
http://life-with-aspergers.blogspot.com/ |
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Silver_Meteor
Asperger Accountant
Joined: Jul 11, 2007
Posts: 1343
Location: North Kingstown, Rhode Island, USA
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| Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 2:30 am Post subject: |
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I think it depends on the manner in which taboo subjects are discussed here.
_________________
Not by revolution but through evolution are all things accomplished in permanency.
Certified Bookkeeper:AIPB
Diagnosed with Autism/Childhood Schizophrenia early 60s. Today, I would have Asperger Syndrome |
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greenblue
¸.·´´¯`··.¸.·´
Joined: Mar 26, 2007
Posts: 9014
Location: Home
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| Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 3:06 am Post subject: |
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It seems to me that Pandora as well as other people might find some subjects to be very offensive to them, while it might not be like that to most, and those are not considered offensive or a bad thing according to the current rules.
I believe what Alex described of what is permisible and what is not, it is great, because it makes the site flexible, and there is actually some freedom to talk about some issues.
Having more restricted rules on what subjects to be allowed and what not, that would damage the site, now that the goal is to gain more members and more awareness.
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"I realized, nothing really exists". |
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Pandora
Cat Lady
Joined: Jun 18, 2005
Age: 48
Posts: 4684
Location: Townsville
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| Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 4:42 am Post subject: |
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| MrMark wrote: | | Pandora wrote: |
It seems to me that there is a little clique in this website who want full freedom to discuss things that most people find abhorrent and they don't like it when anybody objects. |
There was such a group. They been thrown out, for their tactics, not their position. I suggested to them that they and their supporters band together and petition Alex for change. They chose less honorable tactics and got banned.
I now make the same suggestion to you. Bring your supporters together and petition Alex for change. I don't mean people who joined yesterday, I mean well-established members. If you don't feel he's hearing you, let me know and I'll make sure he hears you. There was recently a shift towards greater enforcement of the rules. Perhaps you're correct and a shift towards even greater enforcement of the rules is called for by the segment of the membership that is in the middle of the social/political spectrum. It certainly would make my job easier. |
Mr Mark, thanks kindly for that suggestion.
_________________
Break out you Western girls,
Someday soon you're gonna rule the world.
Break out you Western girls,
Hold your heads up high.
"Western Girls" - Dragon
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Pandora
Cat Lady
Joined: Jun 18, 2005
Age: 48
Posts: 4684
Location: Townsville
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| Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 4:47 am Post subject: |
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| gbollard wrote: | shadexiii,
You said;
| Quote: | | 1) You made accusations of harassment without giving the context, or any examples. |
The important thing here is that Pandora mentioned that she felt harassed. That should have been the clue to let up on her. It's obvious that the two of you won't find a middle ground in this case, so there's probably no need to continue arguing about it - there won't be a winner.
I didn't like the fact that Pandora brought her diagnosis into the argument because I know there's a lot of diagnosed vs undiagnosed contention at WP and I couldn't see how the statement would help.
We all type things in that we regret after hitting submit - I just assumed that once Pandora realized how the statement would be interpreted she thought oops. Note that she hasn't brought it up again - just tried to defend herself.
I'm not sure what the solution to the "real" problem of whether or not to post certain material in forums. Perhaps if some sort of agreement could be reached - maybe exclude certain topics from RSS?
I know that there's a "women's forum" which may or may not be locked down - I've never tried to access it. Maybe there needs to be a "pervert's forum" - ok perhaps not that particular name.
Pandora: If WP had to have the "sniggering boys behind the toilet" forums, what do you think they would need to do to make sure they didn't offend? |
I will try and explain why I brought up the officially diagnosed thing. It wasn't meant to insult - what I meant is that I in common with other aspies have quite serious difficulties at times in expressing emotions.
If I feel frightened by something, I am likely to go into attack mode and this is what has happened in the adult forum. I have spent years being treated as a second class citizen simply because I am a woman. Another reaction I have to feeling scared is to be sarcastic or make fun of the thing that frightened me in an effort to defuse its impact.
That doesn't mean I am a man hater but it does mean I find comments about men using women sexually frightening and distressing. (The converse applies too).
I didn't know how to copy over the name of a thread or a post to alert the moderator to something upsetting and I still don't know how to do it so that is why it might seem there is no context to what I said about harassment.
_________________
Break out you Western girls,
Someday soon you're gonna rule the world.
Break out you Western girls,
Hold your heads up high.
"Western Girls" - Dragon
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psy
Emu Egg
Joined: Dec 06, 2007
Posts: 5
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| Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 7:01 am Post subject: |
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| Pandora wrote: | | gwenevyn wrote: | | JohnHopkins wrote: | | I was referring more to the prostitution than the public sex, but okay then. |
It shocked me, too, the first time I saw it. Alex thinks it's important for aspies to have a safe place to talk about these things. |
Okay, so let's say somebody does this and then gets arrested for soliciting a prostitute. Is WP going to pay their legal fees? I don't think so. What if the person sues WP because people said that it was okay and didn't tell them they might get arrested by the local constabulary?
I know prostitution is legal in some countries but in the US, it is illegal in many states. I also note there is discussion about taking hard drugs. What if a young impressionable aspie takes crack or angel dust because they think it will make them more sociable and then they overdose and die or get serious brain damage or murder somebody while they are "high"?
WP could open itself to legal actions on this basis.
I also don't agree that venting is always the way to go. Sure it is okay within limits, but once indulged in to a great degree, it encourages the person to dwell on their bad feelings and maybe even act upon them.
For those prople abusing me for being elitist, don't forget I am officially diagnosed AS so have trouble expressing emotions about scary topics. |
if people want drugs its there choice |
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The_Chosen_One
Lord of all who roam in my domain
Joined: Jul 27, 2007
Posts: 1371
Location: Looking down on humanity
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| Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 7:30 am Post subject: |
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If they want to kill themselves in doing so, then I guess it may be hard to stop them. Illicit drugs are illegal, possession is a crime, pushing is a felony, and all this means is that serious jail time can be the result. Either that, or some poor bugger gets killed in a robbery for drug money, or soeone gets AIDS from an infected needle, or someone dies through taking a tampered dose of ecstasy. If people want help to get off them, fine. Discuss it all you want. But if people are saying that taking them is cool and someone overdoses and kills themselves vecause of the discussion, then intent follows the bullet. BTW, pedophilia, prostitution, child pornography etc are still illegal activities as well last time I read the news, so they should not be discussed on an open forum at all, and the police would discourage even closed fora as well. Criminal activity can get people into serious trouble, and the internet is one place where unfortunately it has become rife. Do we need that sort of behaviour here? Methinks not.
_________________
Pagans are people too, not just victims of a religious cleansing program. Universal harmony for all!!
Karma decides what must happen, and that includes everyone. |
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