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lau
Really nice person to know. :)
Joined: Jun 18, 2006
Age: 60
Posts: 9484
Location: Somerset UK
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 Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 9:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Pandora wrote: | | OKay, well I wasn't making any cheap shot as you seem to think I was. I was expressing a genuine concern about impressionable children being misled. Now nobody has told me just how easy or difficult it would be to move the Kids' Crater. |
About two minutes, all told.
| Pandora wrote: | | I fully realise Alex is a busy person and would accept an explanation that said it would take hours or days to make the change. But instead, I get replies that insult my intelligence ie. "you have been heard", "it wasn't thought important". |
That seemed to suffice. You were heard when you brought up the same subject in another thread. I supported you at that time. I've thought more about it, and can now think of a couple of reasons NOT to move the forum.
| Pandora wrote: | | I'm not the least bit interested in being "heard" but instead would like to be "listened to" There is a difference between the two terms and I'm surprised that Mr Mark didn't seem to think I would see the difference. |
Do you imply that whatever you say should be acted upon?
| Pandora wrote: | | "It wasn't thought important" seems to suggest little thought was given at all and goes along with the comment "your concern was heard" (and no doubt quickly dismissed). |
Why do you feel that saying one thing means something else? I don't think we're that subtle.
| Pandora wrote: | | All this idiocy about "learning" and "growing" is but a smokescreen so please afford me credit for the intelligence to see through this smokescreen to the real issues underneath. |
If you'd care to explain what the "real issues" are, I'll listen. I really have lost the thread of what you are trying to say.
So far as the moving of the Crater goes, you have never given any indication of where it would be best put. I did think about that. I decided that I didn't know where else would be significantly better. I feel that moving it at all would confuse some people, to the extent that they might even start looking at the forums nearby, trying to see where it had gone - i.e. it would draw attention to the adult forum, the avoidance of which is what your whole argument was based on. Also, there is the whole inertia thing, and, as always, it would be a CHANGE, which will freak out some people, for no real reason.
I think if Alex were to be contemplating any change in the forums and their grouping, it would be best for him to accumulate several such changes, and do them all at once. Piecemeal moving of a single forum, for no pressing purpose, seems counter-productive.
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Rjaye
Phoenix
Joined: Nov 05, 2006
Posts: 903
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| Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 9:56 pm Post subject: |
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If the Kids' Crater were moved, the kids might not find it. We don't want to make it more difficult for them--and I'm starting to question the whole idea of the Adult and Women's forum anyway, but that's up to Alex. I compare those forums to Depression support groups where all that happens is that negative attitudes are reinforced, which is why we dismantled them at the psychiatric center I worked at.
I'm going to think some more on this. I keep thinking we need more for the kids. They are the ones who are getting the diagnoses, especially with the new pediatrics guidelines, and we'll have lots more of them. Maybe I'll make suggestions if I come up with anything reasonable.
R. |
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gbollard
K’Anpo no... Cho-Je... whatever.
Joined: Oct 06, 2007
Age: 40
Posts: 4412
Location: Sydney, Australia
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wsmac
WP Elevator Operator - What Floor Please?
Joined: Sep 01, 2007
Posts: 2879
Location: Humboldt County, Little Blue House on the Hill
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| Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 12:21 am Post subject: |
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| Pandora wrote: | | OKay, well I wasn't making any cheap shot as you seem to think I was. I was expressing a genuine concern about impressionable children being misled. |
When you say something like this that is unsubstantiated...
| Pandora wrote: | | So you think it's okay for kids to be corrupted? |
Then yes, I do see it as a cheap shot.
No where did he say it's okay for kids to be corrupted, you just made that up.
You keep on about how children will be corrupted by posts here, how Alex will suffer legal liability from posts here.... typical unsubstantiated hystyeria.
You do not seem to understand that comments such as you make often here come off as emotional expression instead of reasonable, factual expression. You seem to wonder why people do not march along with your comments when it's definitely clear to me that you make these things up and never check on the accuracy of your statements.
| Pandora wrote: |
All this idiocy about "learning" and "growing" is but a smokescreen so please afford me credit for the intelligence to see through this smokescreen to the real issues underneath. |
'Idiocy' seems a strong statement does it not?
I do afford you 'credit' for your intelligence. This is why I do not go off spouting emotion-based comments without acknowledging that they are only my opinion and not fact.
The terms, "learning" and "growing" are not a smokescreen.
They are descriptive terms I use to indicate a person moving along a continuum of improving intelligence and maturity.
..."Growing intelligently", "Growing more mature".
I am just as concerned with our young members and guests here as you are Pandora.
I believe every adult here is just as concerned as we are.
The fact is, we do not see eye-to-eye on this issue.
You possess no more truth than I do about this, we have our opinions and whatever facts we can bring here to support our opinions.
My rebuttals here are only directed at your comments/actions... not you as a person.
I do not know you and I have no reason to call you names or conspire against you.
I do hope you understand that.
Hey Lau... still got that mop & bucket handy? 
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Pandora
Cat Lady
Joined: Jun 18, 2005
Age: 48
Posts: 4684
Location: Townsville
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| Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 5:03 am Post subject: |
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Lau, you never PM'd me to discuss this issue so I don't know how you can say you discussed it with me. Not once has Alex or you or ANY of the other moderators apart from Gwenyvn in recent times PM'd me to ask what I was really concerned about. Whatever happened to consultation and inclusion?
The real issue I have is about women being spoken of in derogatory and sexist terms in the adult forum and of illegal acts such as taking hard drugs and soliciting prostitutes being touted as positive things. These are hardly positive ideas for young children to get hold of and there is a real risk of this happening at present.
Wsmack - I'm not making ANYTHING up but if anybody is making things up, it is you.
This site had a near miss with a case a couple of years ago when a young man who was a member tragically murdered two neighbours and then suicided, so legal liability is a valid concern.
I'm not just making this up to cause trouble. I also note that the moderators of another Aspie site I also visit take very careful precautions about anything that could make them legally liable for the actions of their contributors. It is no joke being taken to court and even if found innocent, you can easily still have to find thousands of dollars for legal costs.
If you just hope that I will submit to all your bullying and just go away, you have another thing to think about. I cannot be convinced that your arguments are not personal. I don't even know if you're really Aspie.
_________________
Break out you Western girls,
Someday soon you're gonna rule the world.
Break out you Western girls,
Hold your heads up high.
"Western Girls" - Dragon
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wsmac
WP Elevator Operator - What Floor Please?
Joined: Sep 01, 2007
Posts: 2879
Location: Humboldt County, Little Blue House on the Hill
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| Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 5:37 am Post subject: |
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| Pandora wrote: |
The real issue I have is about women being spoken of in derogatory and sexist terms in the adult forum and of illegal acts such as taking hard drugs and soliciting prostitutes being touted as positive things. These are hardly positive ideas for young children to get hold of and there is a real risk of this happening at present. |
This is then an issue for the parents to deal with... not you.
| Pandora wrote: | Wsmack - I'm not making ANYTHING up but if anybody is making things up, it is you.
This site had a near miss with a case a couple of years ago when a young man who was a member tragically murdered two neighbours and then suicided, so legal liability is a valid concern. |
What I was saying you were making up was your suggestion that MrMark thinks it's okay for kids to be corrupted.
I have quoted what you wrote verbatum now twice.. I believe. You wrote it, you made it up. MrMark never posted anything here about him thinking it is okay for kids to be corrupted... do you understand now?
I'm trying to explain this so my feelings are clear... you made something up and attributed it to another member here... that's all.
I am not aware of the case you mention above. I still believe it is farfetched that Alex would be sued because a parent allowed their child to access this website and the child saw where an adult male posted about visiting a prostitute.
Again... this is NOT illegal all over the U.S.
Your continued assertions that children will be corrupted by reading the posts here on WP appear to be based on emotion and not fact. That's all I am saying. When you write in the manner of stating something as absolute or factual and yet you cannot back it up with evidence, I would say that you are indeed making things up.
I am only referring to your posts.
| Pandora wrote: | I'm not just making this up to cause trouble. I also note that the moderators of another Aspie site I also visit take very careful precautions about anything that could make them legally liable for the actions of their contributors. It is no joke being taken to court and even if found innocent, you can easily still have to find thousands of dollars for legal costs.
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I have never said you were causing trouble. I disagree with your push to disallow adult conversations that the majority of active posters here seem okay to allow. I am referring to your actions here.
What other people do on other websites does not necessarily set the example for all website everywhere, but thank you for the information.
I also understand the legal system here in the U.S. quite well, thank you.
| Pandora wrote: | | If you just hope that I will submit to all your bullying and just go away, you have another thing to think about. I cannot be convinced that your arguments are not personal. |
Here you go again Pandora... you are taking on the role of the victim when I have not attacked you personally at all.
I disagree with your comments and ideas.
I have repeatedly said so.
You are just one of those people who seem intent on taking everything personally and I'm sorry to see that.
I am not bullying you at all. I am not calling for you to leave WrongPlanet.
I respond to your posts.
Sorry if you can't take my replies as anything other than personal attacks... they are not.
You seem intent on taking most everyone's replies to your posts as personal attacks.
No one can help you with that... you have to deal with it on your own.
As for your last line...
| Pandora wrote: | | I don't even know if you're really Aspie. |
Quite the diversion tactic huh?
I could say the same about you. What would that mean? Nothing.
I have never claimed to be an Aspie. I repeatedly let it be known that I am formally diagnosed with ADD/HD... that's it.
Since Alex has included ADD/HD as one of the things supported here, I have felt very much at home.
You don't have to believe I even have two diagnosis of ADD/HD either... won't hurt my feelings any.
We're just two typists on the internet Pandora.
There's no reason for personal attacks or getting overly emotional about what someone else says... at least that's my philosophy about it. I do take a stand on issues I feel strongly about, but not to the point of getting all hot-and-bothered about things.
If I do get too carried away and type something I later see is inappropriate, I come back and apologize.
So far, I do not see where I have done anything of this nature towards you.
I am not mad at you, not angry with you... I do not dislike you at all... because I don't even know you.
I am only responding to the words you type here... that's it.
Take care.
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Pandora
Cat Lady
Joined: Jun 18, 2005
Age: 48
Posts: 4684
Location: Townsville
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| Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 5:49 am Post subject: |
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But I am a parent myself so that is why I take this seriously. Sure, it is up to parents to keep an eye on what their kids look at, but they can't be everywhere all the time.
You can say all you like that you're not making personal attacks on me but you and I know it's bunk.
The case I was talking about was NOT about a young man going to a prostitute and getting arrested. It was someone who was speaking about having troubling thoughts and who got some bad advice on this site (NOT from Alex I might add - he did all he could to help the man). Had some of these comments been deleted earlier, the situation might not have led to three people dying at the hand of this young man.
I'm not suggesting that all adult comments are wrong. I like some rude jokes and all that but there is a big difference between that and people posting really perverted and offensive stuff and then expecting it won't be challenged.
_________________
Break out you Western girls,
Someday soon you're gonna rule the world.
Break out you Western girls,
Hold your heads up high.
"Western Girls" - Dragon
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wsmac
WP Elevator Operator - What Floor Please?
Joined: Sep 01, 2007
Posts: 2879
Location: Humboldt County, Little Blue House on the Hill
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| Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 6:26 am Post subject: |
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| Pandora wrote: |
You can say all you like that you're not making personal attacks on me but you and I know it's bunk. |
I really wish you would take my words on face-value Pandora.
I know it's NOT bunk!
What reason would I have to attack you personally?
I state my beliefs but I do not pose them as fact.
When I say that you appear to have an agenda of cleaning up WP, and other such things, I try to make it clear that this is how I am perceiving your words and actions. That's all.
Anyway, I just don't think I'm going to get this across to you.
I am sorry you cannot accept the truth I am telling you... I have no reason and no intention of attacking you personally.
I will respond to your posts with my own thoughts though.
I will try to keep a civil tongue.
If I err, and realize it, I will come back and apologize.
I believe I have demonstrated this several other times here on WP.
| Pandora wrote: | | The case I was talking about was NOT about a young man going to a prostitute and getting arrested. It was someone who was speaking about having troubling thoughts and who got some bad advice on this site (NOT from Alex I might add - he did all he could to help the man). Had some of these comments been deleted earlier, the situation might not have led to three people dying at the hand of this young man. |
I understood what you were talking about, I just have not heard the story of the murders/suicide.
I do see that as a completely different situation compared to someone seeing a prostitute.
I have gone on record here before stating that I also feel there are some topics and individual posts that are inappropriate and even illegal and should not be allowed here.
I am not for a 'Wide Open Door' policy on discussing or sharing anything and everything in life, here on WP.
| Pandora wrote: | | I'm not suggesting that all adult comments are wrong. I like some rude jokes and all that but there is a big difference between that and people posting really perverted and offensive stuff and then expecting it won't be challenged. |
Being challenged is not the problem.
Calling for an outright ban on some of the subjects you have taken offense to is something I have taken issue with.
But I have never and will never tell you not to post your feelings here.
I still stand by my feelings that this is a place where Aspies and Adders can come to express themselves and ask questions about things that might be more comfortably done in the company of people who understand our personalities.
If we shove some of these topics out and tell people they can only discuss them on 'other' websites, it's quite possible that Aspies and Adders will NOT go to those other websites because of the reception they get there or the content at those places.
Many of the topics in the Adult forum seem to me to be genuinely interesting topics and the people asking questions there seem to desire healthy answers to these questions.
I have seen topics that I thought would just be a bunch of guys cursing and denegrating other people... like women... turn into some very good discussions.
This is an example of what I call Learning and Growing!
I have sometimes seen the original posters turn their comments/beliefs around after some serious and informative debate about a topic.
Herein lies the value of public discourse.
From my personal experience, I know that squelching questions about sexuality, gender, drugs, alcohol, etc., leads to more harm than good.
Once more, I agree that certain topics should not be present here when introduced in certain ways. I reacted to a post recently by a member concerning 'young girls' which I felt was an inappropriate comment about pedophilia.
Alex reacted to this member's comment and took action.
Presented in a different manner, pedophilia can be a topic that could see serious and appropriate discussion, perhaps even to the enlightenment of young people here.
The discussion about visiting an Escort turned out to be quite revealing and educational in what I saw as a positive manner.
I believe that Alex and the moderators do a very good job watching over this place.
I believe the membership does too.
Yes, we have had some moments when things seemed to get a little out of hand, but I see no real problems with how this place is operated.
Well, I'm all over the place now... or so it feels anyway...
Please continue to reply to my posts as you see fit Pandora... I do welcome your view as well as anyone else's.
I do sincerely hope that some day you will stop taking my replies so personally... I do not mean them so.
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Pandora
Cat Lady
Joined: Jun 18, 2005
Age: 48
Posts: 4684
Location: Townsville
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| Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 8:43 am Post subject: |
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Perhaps I am just a tad paranoid at times.
_________________
Break out you Western girls,
Someday soon you're gonna rule the world.
Break out you Western girls,
Hold your heads up high.
"Western Girls" - Dragon
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gbollard
K’Anpo no... Cho-Je... whatever.
Joined: Oct 06, 2007
Age: 40
Posts: 4412
Location: Sydney, Australia
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| Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 8:44 am Post subject: |
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The sad thing is that both wsmac and pandora have good points but seem to be getting so personal that you're missing the good in each others posts.
I don't think that anyone would doubt that WP has a reputation to protect and needs to protect itself from legal issues as best it can.
Similarly, it's quite obvious that even the worst of topics can develop into useful discussions. A good example being a recent trolling exercise about asking offensive questions. I was a little miffed at the original poster but not because of the subject matter (as wsmac originally thought - and jumped on me for) - it's because I hate trolls.
The discussion eventually turned around into something that I'm glad was covered - and in that sense, I had to eat my words. The troll however unwittingly, actually did us a service.
The real concerns here seem to be centered around accessibility of topics to children and the limits on what should be discussed. There's obviously no point in arguing back and forward since nobody will agree on total freedom or a total ban.
Pandora has made a brilliant first move (IMHO) by suggesting that the forum be moved. This is achievable and could help to prevent accidental browsing - nothing will stop a determined youngster from accessing whatever they want - and there are more suitable/juicy sites out there than WP. Plans are underway to see what can be done to implement Pandora's suggestion.
I'd welcome any other suggestions for things that actually can be done.
That leaves the topics that are suitable... I don't know how this can be resolved. I can see a degree of legal protection is required but don't have the experience to know what exactly is needed. We also don't want to restrict freedom of speech - subject to applicable laws - eg: I don't think you can talk terrorism in Australia (?).
So, what exactly are we trying to prevent / protect against - and who are we trying to protect - since the only kiddies in the forum will be ones who deliberately ignored warnings and went in there.
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http://life-with-aspergers.blogspot.com/ |
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lau
Really nice person to know. :)
Joined: Jun 18, 2006
Age: 60
Posts: 9484
Location: Somerset UK
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| Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 10:42 am Post subject: |
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| Pandora wrote: | | Lau, you never PM'd me to discuss this issue so I don't know how you can say you discussed it with me. Not once has Alex or you or ANY of the other moderators apart from Gwenyvn in recent times PM'd me to ask what I was really concerned about. Whatever happened to consultation and inclusion?... |
Why would I PM you about a subject that should be discussed publicly?
I did not say is discussed it with you. I said "I supported you at that time". You originally raised the subject here:
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postp1033184.html#1033184
A few hours later, I did exactly what I said I did. Thereafter, you shied away from doing anything further about the issue.
It has just taken me about an hour, finding the above, as you made me wonder if MY memory was at fault. I knew it was a while ago (actually over a month ago), but you have just posted on that three-page thread - which is why I had trouble finding it - I foolishly was assuming it had drifted down the page.
At that time, you were accusing Alex of not liking you.
At least gbollard has now done the sensible thing - opening a thread to discuss the subject. Something that you could have done a month ago.
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wsmac
WP Elevator Operator - What Floor Please?
Joined: Sep 01, 2007
Posts: 2879
Location: Humboldt County, Little Blue House on the Hill
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| Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 8:04 pm Post subject: |
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| gbollard wrote: | | The sad thing is that both wsmac and pandora have good points but seem to be getting so personal that you're missing the good in each others posts. |
Good point! Thanks 
| gbollard wrote: | | The real concerns here seem to be centered around accessibility of topics to children and the limits on what should be discussed. |
You're right GBollard.
| gbollard wrote: | | Pandora has made a brilliant first move (IMHO) by suggesting that the forum be moved. This is achievable and could help to prevent accidental browsing - nothing will stop a determined youngster from accessing whatever they want - and there are more suitable/juicy sites out there than WP. Plans are underway to see what can be done to implement Pandora's suggestion. |
This is good and I'm glad to hear of it.
I do have to ask you though.... what are you 'wearing' in your avatar?
Looks like something from StarWars or a similar SciFi movie.
I do a double take everytime I see it!
| Pandora wrote: | | Perhaps I am just a tad paranoid at times. |
Well, I am sorry if I have said things that bring it on.
I'm hoping we work out our differences here Pandora
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Pandora
Cat Lady
Joined: Jun 18, 2005
Age: 48
Posts: 4684
Location: Townsville
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| Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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Lau, I just think it would have been good manners to have PMed me as well as talked about things publicly. Unfortunately my short term memory is not the best so I forgot that you were supportive before. My apologies for that.
I didn't think Alex liked me and instead of saying it's rubbish and making out it's my fault, I needed more reassurance.
Wsmac, it would take a fair bit of convincing because I don't trust easily. I'm not saying it can't be done but it would be difficult as people who don't trust usually have plenty of reason to have become that way in the first place so you need to be able to cut through years of conditioning and it's far from easy. If I could do it myself, I would be a happy person.
_________________
Break out you Western girls,
Someday soon you're gonna rule the world.
Break out you Western girls,
Hold your heads up high.
"Western Girls" - Dragon
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wsmac
WP Elevator Operator - What Floor Please?
Joined: Sep 01, 2007
Posts: 2879
Location: Humboldt County, Little Blue House on the Hill
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| Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 6:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Pandora wrote: |
Wsmac, it would take a fair bit of convincing because I don't trust easily. I'm not saying it can't be done but it would be difficult as people who don't trust usually have plenty of reason to have become that way in the first place so you need to be able to cut through years of conditioning and it's far from easy. If I could do it myself, I would be a happy person. |
Thanks for letting me know Pandora.
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Pandora
Cat Lady
Joined: Jun 18, 2005
Age: 48
Posts: 4684
Location: Townsville
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| Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, counselling never did the trick and in fact, bad experiences with counsellors made me more distrustful still. If it helps, I am a bit like a feral cat that hisses and runs when people get near but is not a complete write-off.
_________________
Break out you Western girls,
Someday soon you're gonna rule the world.
Break out you Western girls,
Hold your heads up high.
"Western Girls" - Dragon
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