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RobertN
Phoenix
Joined: Jul 31, 2005
Posts: 934
Location: Cambridge, UK
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 Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 6:03 pm Post subject: |
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Watch it Ascan!!! That was very close to a personal insult! 
Yes, all the cases you give are true, but even in the worst inner-city areas in this country, there is still a fraction of the violence you get in some US city downtown areas. At least here, if someone is shot, there is a thorough investigation, and the person responsible is put away for a good long time.
However, in the Bronx of NY, shooting is a daily occurance between rival gangs because of the easy availability of weapons. The police tend to not notice, particularly if the victim is poor and black. The police are afraid of the gangs, which are often connected to an international mafia of some sort. The only reason why Freund's case is so public is because it happened in a rich, white area which is not used to gun warfare. If it happened in the Bronx, Freund and his victims could be dead, and we would be none the wiser. |
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techstepgenr8tion
that chatty American
Joined: Feb 07, 2005
Age: 30
Posts: 7834
Location: The fine world of insomnia and coffee
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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| RobertN wrote: |
Yes, all the cases you give are true, but even in the worst inner-city areas in this country, there is still a fraction of the violence you get in some US city downtown areas. At least here, if someone is shot, there is a thorough investigation, and the person responsible is put away for a good long time.
However, in the Bronx of NY, shooting is a daily occurance between rival gangs because of the easy availability of weapons. The police tend to not notice, particularly if the victim is poor and black. The police are afraid of the gangs, which are often connected to an international mafia of some sort. The only reason why Freund's case is so public is because it happened in a rich, white area which is not used to gun warfare. If it happened in the Bronx, Freund and his victims could be dead, and we would be none the wiser. |
Hey Rob, the nice thing about guns is you can ID bullets back to em to the shooter or at least the last legal owner (from which a theft trail could possibly be established) - try doing that with a knife.
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eamonn
not viable
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Joined: Jul 09, 2005
Posts: 2301
Location: Scotland
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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| The conviction rate for knife murders here is not far from 100% and far more likely to get the conviction due to forensic evidence that always happens when you stab someone though admittedly one of the reasons that gun crimes has a lower conviction rate is due to gun killings generally being done by gangsters/hitmen. |
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techstepgenr8tion
that chatty American
Joined: Feb 07, 2005
Age: 30
Posts: 7834
Location: The fine world of insomnia and coffee
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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| eamonn wrote: | | The conviction rate for knife murders here is not far from 100% and far more likely to get the conviction due to forensic evidence that always happens when you stab someone though admittedly one of the reasons that gun crimes has a lower conviction rate is due to gun killings generally being done by gangsters/hitmen. |
Yeah, I almost forgot about the DNA tracing.
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Keep your feet on the ground, your heart in the stars, and clarity in your mind. |
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Sean
Banned
Joined: Apr 04, 2005
Posts: 3503
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 9:28 pm Post subject: |
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| RobertN wrote: | Watch it Ascan!!! That was very close to a personal insult!
Yes, all the cases you give are true, but even in the worst inner-city areas in this country, there is still a fraction of the violence you get in some US city downtown areas. At least here, if someone is shot, there is a thorough investigation, and the person responsible is put away for a good long time.
However, in the Bronx of NY, shooting is a daily occurance between rival gangs because of the easy availability of weapons. The police tend to not notice, particularly if the victim is poor and black. The police are afraid of the gangs, which are often connected to an international mafia of some sort. The only reason why Freund's case is so public is because it happened in a rich, white area which is not used to gun warfare. If it happened in the Bronx, Freund and his victims could be dead, and we would be none the wiser. |
It is an upper class neighborhood. Anyway, the gangs in the Bronx get their guns illegally, just like in England. Posession of handguns purchased after 1968 are banned without exception in the NYC area, and long gun licenses are extremely expensive and extremely hard to get there. Much like the way it is in London. |
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kevv729
Shai-Hulud
Joined: Sep 23, 2005
Age: 46
Posts: 2878
Location: SOUTH DAKOTA
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 10:57 pm Post subject: |
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I had a cousin that committed suicide this year with a hand gun. He bought the hand gun at a gun store. The gun store owner did asked some question so he should go through the criminal back ground checks with the state and federal agencies. He past them with a waiting period of time. Then he one day committed suicide. I thank God that he only killed himself and no one else. He himself had no criminal record so he could purchase the hand gun after the waiting period.
I personally own a shotgun myself. Again it is not the guns fault it is the one that pulls that trigger. All guns can be used safely. The process to even get a gun is hard enough. Yes many do buy them legally and some do commit crimes with them. But the vast majority do not commit crimes against anybody.
I am not a right wringer or a left wringer. I believe if You do not have a criminal record You should at in the U.S. have a right buy and purchase even be licensed to own that gun if You desire to own the gun of Your chose.
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ascan
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 23, 2005
Posts: 2259
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| Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 3:38 am Post subject: |
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| RobertN wrote: | | Watch it Ascan!!! That was very close to a personal insult! |
No where near, old chap. I had a lovely bit of sarcasm involving that tropical sea you're swimming in that I was going to use, but you didn't really deserve that. 
Of course, I'm not on first name terms with the ruling elite here, so I've got to be a lttle careful; you know, all animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others, and all that.  |
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ascan
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 23, 2005
Posts: 2259
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| Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 3:43 am Post subject: |
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| Sean wrote: | From something like the 1700s until the 1920's, you had just as strong of a gn culture as the US. Up until 1903, you didn't need a license to carry a concealed pistol (just like modern day Texas), and before that, your country had the lowest crime rate in it's history. England could do just fine if they had a pro gun culture- they just need to realize it again.  |
And then there's Switzerland. That goes to show it's not the guns, per se, that are the problem.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1566715.stm |
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eamonn
not viable
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Joined: Jul 09, 2005
Posts: 2301
Location: Scotland
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| Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 4:32 am Post subject: |
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LOL @ guns being hard to come by in places like New York and LA. I must admit though, if the police dont start responding quicker and more efficiently to calls here, then bringing in gun laws is tempting as here it isnt that unusual for the gangs to terrorise people without much care because they know that conviction and real punishment is unlikely.
In the poorer schemes people regularly have a mob mentality so maybe it wouldnt do them any harm to know that that 'soft target' that they had been hounding would be able to give them back the same damage as they get.
Im against guns now but when i get older and less able to physically defend myself and i get hassle and the police dont take me seriously or take two hours to respond then maybe guns would make the thugs that would assault me and take my pension think twice? Whats the crime statistics for Texas anyway as regards to violent crime, thefts, and violent deaths? It's all very well saying people should be responsible about it but why are so many people not being?
Ascan, Switzerland is a different kettle of fish. Once we have such a responsible, grown up society then we can compare us with them but i think we are closer in gun use to the US if we get guns. |
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Sean
Banned
Joined: Apr 04, 2005
Posts: 3503
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| Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 4:48 am Post subject: |
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| eamonn wrote: | LOL @ guns being hard to come by in places like New York and LA. I must admit though, if the police dont start responding quicker and more efficiently to calls here, then bringing in gun laws is tempting as here it isnt that unusual for the gangs to terrorise people without much care because they know that conviction and real punishment is unlikely.
Im against guns now but when i get older and less able to physically defend myself and i get hassle and the police dont take me seriously or take two hours to respond then maybe guns would make the thugs that would assault me and take my pension think twice? Whats the crime statistics for Texas anyway as regards to violent crime, thefts, and violent deaths? It's all very well saying people should be responsible about it but why are so many people not being? |
When I said that guns are harder to get in New York and LA, I was talking about legally. You can get just about any type of gun ever made within an hour of getting out of jail for a violent felony on the black market, and it's about the same situation everywhere else in the world. The reasons you have described for possibly wanting a gun when you are older are exactly the kinds of reasons the Majority of American households have a gun. It's 1:50am here, so I'll have to look up the exact crime statistics for Texas and the national average tomorrow. |
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eamonn
not viable
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Joined: Jul 09, 2005
Posts: 2301
Location: Scotland
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| Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 4:54 am Post subject: |
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| Ok, i might look them up myself. To be fair guns are a bit easier to come by in the black market in New York and LA than London etc because in the US guns are aplenty. It's called overspill. Gun crimes are still much rarer here. |
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chamoisee
Phoenix
Joined: Aug 28, 2004
Age: 37
Posts: 1066
Location: Idaho
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| Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 11:57 pm Post subject: |
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Is it so hard to imagine that not every gun owner has the motive of harming people when they own a gun? I learned to use a firearm at age 14, and have never once been inclined to shoot anyone. There are other reasons to own a gun than the intention of personal violence!
I wouldn't be at all surprised if there were at least one gun to each person where I live, or close to it, yet, while there are gun related homicides, our area certainly isn't renowned for them. To my knowledge, there are many more deaths related to drinking, drugs, and driving, in various deadly combinations.  |
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kevv729
Shai-Hulud
Joined: Sep 23, 2005
Age: 46
Posts: 2878
Location: SOUTH DAKOTA
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| Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 3:14 am Post subject: |
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| chamoisee wrote: | Is it so hard to imagine that not every gun owner has the motive of harming people when they own a gun? I learned to use a firearm at age 14, and have never once been inclined to shoot anyone. There are other reasons to own a gun than the intention of personal violence!
I wouldn't be at all surprised if there were at least one gun to each person where I live, or close to it, yet, while there are gun related homicides, our area certainly isn't renowned for them. To my knowledge, there are many more deaths related to drinking, drugs, and driving, in various deadly combinations. |
You are very right in your assessment more people die from other reasons in more various deadly ways that you can shake a stick at it for sure.
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KingdomOfRats
Phoenix
Joined: Nov 01, 2005
Age: 26
Posts: 3583
Location: Manchester
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| Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 5:55 am Post subject: |
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I think the government are trying to ban,or at least raise the required age of owning airguns because of the amount of underage users and if I remember correctly-a child was killed with one in Scotland(?),it's quite common here for animals to be injured or killed from air gun pellets as a lot of young thugs know they will get away with it.
Speaking of all guns generally,it is prejudice when the responsible legal owners are treated the same as the illegal and irresponsible users,a person who has a gun is often expected to do violent things with it because the people who have problems with them have only heard stories of gun violence,and never stories about the responsible owners.
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chamoisee
Phoenix
Joined: Aug 28, 2004
Age: 37
Posts: 1066
Location: Idaho
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| Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 10:44 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | I think the government are trying to ban,or at least raise the required age of owning airguns because of the amount of underage users and if I remember correctly-a child was killed with one in Scotland(?),it's quite common here for animals to be injured or killed from air gun pellets as a lot of young thugs know they will get away with it.
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Oh. Well, the only time my son has ever used a gun, it was an airgun, for the purpose of killing off some of a local colony of pocket gophers. There were hundreds of them and they had infiltrated our property and garden to the point where our food supply was in serious danger.  We actually told him to please shoot them if he could...I guess that makes him a thug?
Of course I do not advocate senseless, sadistic killing of animals without good reason... |
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