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2ukenkerl
Phoenix
Joined: Jul 20, 2007
Posts: 4587
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 Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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| NeantHumain wrote: | | cruxdust wrote: | | 2ukenkerl and NeantHumain: The justice system both punishes and rehabilitates criminals- it all depends on the severity of the crime. |
That may be how the present system is set up, but what purpose does punishment serve? If the only purpose is to make the victim or relatives and friends of the victim feel that justice has been served, this is not justice; justice is not a system of revenge on a grand scale. Even if one replaces the victim with the more abstract society, revenge is still not justice. Some people postulate that punishment is an effective deterrent to crime, but I doubt its effectiveness. Think back to your childhood. What effects did punishment have? Punishment breeds resentment, hatred, and anger: all things that can lead to more problems. The proper approach is rehabilitation: teaching more effective strategies, teaching the harm crime causes the criminal and everyone else, and even nurturance (many criminals come from neglected backgrounds). |
Punishment adds a little justice, and helps to DETER OTHERS! Trying to appeal to my feelings about past punishment just gives me more resolve in this. Never mind that I was usually punished for someone ELSES misdeed! |
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2ukenkerl
Phoenix
Joined: Jul 20, 2007
Posts: 4587
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| Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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| NeantHumain wrote: | | 2ukenkerl wrote: | | The courts are NOT supposed to help criminals, etc.... Their job is to INCARCERATE AND PUNISH those that unjustly hurt people. ***********PERIOD************! |
Absolutely wrong. The justice system is supposed to rehabilitate criminals so that they can return as productive members of society. The idea that people should be punished only for the sake of being punished is cruel and barbaric. The way the U.S. penal system is currently set up, people who enter for relatively minor crimes come out criminally "sophisticated" and initiated into a highly unsavory subculture that promotes further criminality. |
That would be the ideal, but RARELY happens! |
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ev8
Deinonychus
Joined: Aug 29, 2007
Age: 21
Posts: 324
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| Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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| cruxdust wrote: | The common belief is, some criminals deserve to be punished.
Straying slightly from the topic, here in Britain, some really awful, unrepentant criminals are in the papers almost every week; "Ian Huntley makes more demands for curtains and doughnuts and gay lovers", etc. In the case of such people, mollycoddling and therapy isn't likely to get anywhere, and jail's nothing but a holiday camp. You can't TRULY rehabilitate such people, so they should be punished. Jail is both a rehabilitation centre and a deterrent. |
Wait, what does some guy making demands for curtains and doughnuts and lovin' have to do with being awful and unrepentant? To me making demands isn't exhibiting an inability to be rehabilitated. Seems more like an exhibition of the want for curtains and doughnuts and lovin'. |
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cruxdust
Tufted Titmouse
Joined: Sep 12, 2007
Age: 18
Posts: 49
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| Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 2:18 pm Post subject: |
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| The guy in question raped and murdered two small girls, and is NOT sorry for it. |
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Spokane_Girl
I would walk 500 miles and I would walk 500 more
Joined: Jul 17, 2007
Age: 23
Posts: 3337
Location: Benny & Joon town (I wish)
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| Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 2:26 pm Post subject: |
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I remember reading about aspies having troubles understanding right from wrong so that explained to me why I got confused about the rules as a kid because kids didn't follow them and didn't get in trouble for it so I thought it was okay to do.
But I do not like it when aspies get excused for a crime they committed. If they know what they did was wrong, they should be punished like a normal person.
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A place to check for the real truth in politics. |
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2ukenkerl
Phoenix
Joined: Jul 20, 2007
Posts: 4587
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| Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 2:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Zarathustra wrote: | | I think what most people who post here don't realize, is that we're the autistic elite. The Very High Functioning Autistics - looking down from lofty heights on our more disabled brethren. Spend a little time researching autism and forensics and remember there are Aspies out there, that are as disabled as non-verbal LFA's. I'll be back in time for you GoogleHounds' responses. |
I don't think anyone fails to recognize that some are FAR worse off. Who's looking down on them? Still, people here were talking about those claiming to have AS. I even showed doubt on that through my little rant about psychiatrists. Psychiatrists are WELL KNOWN for suggesting things that may NEVER lead to a resolution, and having LONG relationships with patients. Their job is to help the patient become self supported and happy, and yet THEY freely admit they don't. What if they were finally held to task for it?
BTW Most of the LFA people ARE predictable in that they have a comfort level that is OFTEN ignored. I am OFTEN treated in ways that often leads me to imagine what would happen if I was angrier, or a dog. Like the jerk in my cube wasting MY time and destroying MY comfort while I helped him with HIS problem only about a week ago. If I was a dog, he might be DEAD now. You just DON'T act like that around a dog!
Likewise, one would HOPE people would try to keep LFA people more comfortable. I, through communication and reason, am expected to overlook vast trespasses. No person of decent intelligence could expect the same of a very LFA person. |
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Zarathustra
Phoenix
Joined: Oct 06, 2007
Age: 101
Posts: 571
Location: In orbit
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| Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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C
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"No matter what the facts are, only the Truth matters"
Last edited by Zarathustra on Sun Feb 24, 2008 2:31 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Zarathustra
Phoenix
Joined: Oct 06, 2007
Age: 101
Posts: 571
Location: In orbit
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| Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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Cruxdust, How do you know he is not sorry for it? Spoken to him?
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"No matter what the facts are, only the Truth matters" |
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Tim_Tex
WP's Resident Simpsons and South Park Aficionado
Joined: Jul 03, 2004
Age: 28
Posts: 20408
Location: Central Texas
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| Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Spokane_Girl wrote: | I remember reading about aspies having troubles understanding right from wrong so that explained to me why I got confused about the rules as a kid because kids didn't follow them and didn't get in trouble for it so I thought it was okay to do.
But I do not like it when aspies get excused for a crime they committed. If they know what they did was wrong, they should be punished like a normal person. |
I agree 100%
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When you need something, that's a responsibility, that only an adult...of my maturity...Bunnies!!!
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2ukenkerl
Phoenix
Joined: Jul 20, 2007
Posts: 4587
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| Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 2:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Spokane_Girl wrote: | I remember reading about aspies having troubles understanding right from wrong so that explained to me why I got confused about the rules as a kid because kids didn't follow them and didn't get in trouble for it so I thought it was okay to do.
But I do not like it when aspies get excused for a crime they committed. If they know what they did was wrong, they should be punished like a normal person. |
Yeah, tell me about it! I asked my mother about that like when I was 5 or 6, and she said that they would eventually grow up and stop. Until college, they showed NO sign of caring. Today, there are STILL bullies! They just use the courts and police! I had over $15,000 STOLEN from me "LEGALLY"! That isn't counting the credit and tax stuff that I consider to be just as bad. The $15,000 only includes cases where people used bankruptcy or extortion through the courts to rip me off.
You even have cases where amazon has patented one click ordering, and apple patented "the pinch", though NEITHER is patentable(To be patentable a process is to not be ridiculously simple, instantly obvious, or have prior work)! Apple apparently plans to extort, and amazon already has!
And SCO tried to DESTROY linux through OTHER garbage! I am surprised any of it even made it through the courts. SCO for example had NO right or ability, and it was later revealed that they couldn't/didn't, to retroactively change contracts written decades ago, and obliterate an entire industry.(They basically want rights to "EVERYTHING", including the BSD code licensed to SUN and other companies. That code has been freely used for decades and even AT&T never had any rights to it as it was sold LONG ago. SCO THEMSELVES started through such freedom.) They TRIED to hurt the industry, and ended up going bankrupt! Some idiot gave them $100 Million to bring back the garbage, so they plan to CONTINUE!
I hope justice happens and they go bankrupt AGAIN before paying back a penny. |
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angelgirl1224
Velociraptor
Joined: Dec 23, 2007
Age: 16
Posts: 409
Location: england
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| Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah you shouldnt use the AS as as excuse. all criminals should be punished and people with AS shouldnt be treated any differently.
its like if they intervieweed for a job but didnt get it coz they werent suited but usd their AS to their advantage to try and get it.
xx |
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Spokane_Girl
I would walk 500 miles and I would walk 500 more
Joined: Jul 17, 2007
Age: 23
Posts: 3337
Location: Benny & Joon town (I wish)
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| Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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What if an aspie committed a crime because they were being taken advantage of and they didn't even know what they did was wrong because they were lied to about something and were told "Oh this is different, this is totally legal."
What do you guys think?
That's why I don't help people I don't know well. I will not risk getting in trouble with the law because of my gullibility or naiveness. I just don't trust people unless I know them well and I know they will never hurt me. But what if I was threatened to do something, then what?
I just don't want to think about that, just stay away from people period lol. I don't need friends. Only one, my boyfriend.
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http://www.factcheck.org/
A place to check for the real truth in politics. |
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Pithlet
Deinonychus
Joined: Jan 20, 2008
Age: 25
Posts: 347
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| Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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There are four main purposes of punishment.
1] Reformation
Obviously the most desirable, everyone gains the most if a criminal is rehabilitated.
The only real objection to this is that it doesn't work. The prison system seems to produce more sophisticated criminals, not productive law abiding citzens for the most part. Still, reformation should always be the goal, so it shouldn't be dismissed just because it is rare in our current system.
2] Restraint
For the safety of other people, some people need to be restrained and kept from harming others. That's hardly even a debate. However it is debated how long a criminal should be retrained and that without meaningful reform, unless inprisonment is permanent, prison will only postpone criminal behavior. A good argument, but doesn't justify the abolition of imediate restraint for the protection of society.
3] Retribution
As someone pointed out, many think retribution as a legitimate purpose for punishment is barbaric and unfit for a civilized society. But whether or not it's moral or just in a perfect world, it is demanded by this one. Plus, the availability of institutionalized retribution is necessary to prevent personal retribution.
4] Deterrence
There's individual deterrence and general deterrence. Someone else asked whether punishment worked as a deterrence on children or only created more anger and resentment. On me personally it did (both individual and general). Did it create anger and resentment? You bet it did! But that's not to say that it didn't work, at least for me. I've watched parents that were so afraid of upsetting their young children that they refused to punish them for anything they did. Instead they would try reasoning with them in a kind way. It's not a bad thing to try this at first to see if it actually works, especially if the kid didn't do anything seriously harmful. But this is how one parent's conversation with this hyper and very angry four year old would go, "Now little buddy, it's not very nice to hit people with a golf club, it hurts mommy and daddys feelings. Let's be nice from now on, ok sweetie? Does that sound like a good idea?" Some people think deterrenc doesn't work, but I've seen how it often turns out when you let children choose to be good or bad with nothing more than high hopes that they choose good.
Also, we can't really know that deterrence doesn't work with no control group to compare with. I wouldn't want to be around to find out. |
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AspieDave
Phoenix
Joined: Oct 23, 2007
Posts: 568
Location: Traverse City, Michigan
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| Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 6:32 pm Post subject: |
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Maybe it's my Celtic/Scandinavian ancestry but I really don't grok at a basic level why people think "cruel and barbaric" are necessarily a bad thing. I truly don't. I agree, that if you're dealing with a crowd of intelligent and sophisticated people, cruel and barbaric is not effective. If you're dealing with a crowd of barely socialized killer apes it's quite effective. If it wasn't, there wouldn't be gangs in America and they wouldn't control so much territory or have such unswerving loyalty from their members... They rule through fear, and it's fear generated by their cruel and barbaric tactics. In turn, if you want to combat them effectively, you have to fight on their terms. Or wipe them out, completely. Those are your basic options. It doesn't matter if you're talking about a major American city's slums, or Bogota, or somewhere in the Third World. Yes, if I had my preference, I'd live in one of the Libertarian Utopias from L. Neil Smith's books... but I live in the real world and for 95% of the people in the world, no matter WHERE they live brutal is what they live with every day. Middle class and higher in a "Western Democracy" is what most or all of us here are... and we're the most privileged class in the history of humanity. We live with more luxury than kings could have dreamed up 300 years ago. I have more books on a flash chip in my palmpilot than a rich man would have owned in his lifetime. My personal library is larger than any university would have had 300 years ago, and I own all that without needed to go armed everywhere or have a small army of personal retainers to defend it. Because in this country and this time I'm barely middle class...
We live a curious lie here in America. Our "puritan" roots tell us crime is a Sin and Sin must be punished... Our psychologists and sociologists tell us that criminals aren't sinners, they're in need of understanding and reform... Both are right and both are wrong, and neither can get it right. If you can get to them before the mindset and ToM of the criminal becomes too hard set, reform may be possible, but once that mindset takes hold, only a rare and unusual criminal will be able to successfully change his own mode of thinking. After that point, they'll only truly comprehend one thing, if we catch you doing this again, we will make the punishment worse. Prisons for minor and younger criminals are too harsh, and prisons for hardened and habitual criminals are too lax. But with our "equality" based vision in this country, everyone must be treated exactly the same way.... it's insane. And we deserve exactly the results we're getting.
How does that relate to AS? And that those of us on the spectrum seem LESS inclined to cut one of the brethren some slack than the general public? How about because we KNOW this isn't a "disability", not for most Aspie's anyway. We may be different, we may be not "normal" but we're not of diminished capacity.
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I tried to get in touch with my feminine side.... but it got a restraining order..... |
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Zarathustra
Phoenix
Joined: Oct 06, 2007
Age: 101
Posts: 571
Location: In orbit
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| Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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Meanwhile, back on the Hang 'Em & Flog 'Em Thread... Will someone please go to www.google.com and type in "ASPERGER FORENSIC site:.uk" and see what the UK criminal justice system has to say... I hope I don't ever get a jury full of Aspies... I'm running away now before you sentence me to life without parole for being a bleedin' heart liberal. G*d! And yestesday I was worrying about being too right wing...
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