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txstorm
Hummingbird
Joined: May 27, 2007
Posts: 18
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beau99
B.S. Detector
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Joined: Nov 06, 2007
Age: 22
Posts: 1308
Location: A cruel H*llhole called Earth.
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 Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 10:57 pm Post subject: |
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It's best not to trust anything written by David Kirby.
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My site: Thoughts of an Autistic (updated May 20, 2008)
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DeaconBlues
They call Alabama the Crimson Tide - call me...
Joined: Apr 22, 2007
Posts: 1627
Location: Earth, mostly
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| Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 10:58 pm Post subject: |
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It is interesting to note that whenever a question of fact is raised in the author's "analysis", it is not answered, but rather countered with another question, as if all questions, like all men, were created equal. It would appear that rather than take the time to truly analyze the significant questions raised by this incident, and seek perhaps to answer one or two of them, the author found it simpler instead to leave the telephone alone, and write his column without reference to independent subject experts.
Ergo, I am forced to take this column, like most op-ed pieces, with a rather largish grain of salt...
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If it can't be expressed in figures, it is not science; it is opinion. - Robert A. Heinlein |
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twosheds
Raven
Joined: Feb 24, 2007
Posts: 121
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| Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 11:04 pm Post subject: |
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A concession in a court case does not prove anything.
Please do not confuse the federal rules of civil procedure with the scientific method. |
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Icheb
Fortysomething
Joined: Sep 24, 2007
Posts: 1622
Location: Switzerland
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 2:45 am Post subject: |
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Love your avatar, twosheds!  |
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Griff
Phoenix
Joined: Nov 17, 2006
Posts: 1615
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 3:36 am Post subject: |
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Oh, another of these guys...I'm so sick of these people, and I have to say something.
Okay, please allow me to reiterate my position on this subject:
My skepticism toward the mercury poisoning theory is not my premise for believing that homeopathic medicine is complete bullhockey.
My premise for believing that homeopathic medicine is bullhockey is that it actually is a load of bullhockey. It's criminal rubbish. It's snake-oil. It's CRAP.
Furthermore, I do not reject the possibility that mercury poisoning from vaccination is possible. I do not yet have sufficient background in biochemistry to weigh in on this subject, particularly as any kind of authority.
What you are doing is not defending the hypothesis that mercury poisoning could increase one's risk of developing autism. If you are going to say anything of the sort, you are an outright liar and ought to be completely ashamed of yourself.
I will tell you what you are doing:
You are attempting to use this hypothesis as a premise on which to deny that autism is generally genetically inherited. You are using this to stock the hopes of guilt-ridden parents who feel threatened by the possibility that something intrinsically "wrong" with themselves could be responsible for the distress endured by their children. Parents of autistic children do go through these feelings. I endured a lifetime of abuse from my mother, for example, because she has always held me completely to blame for these gnawing feelings within herself. Unfortunately, she was too weak to accept me as I was born to her, and I was, for my entire life, treated as a sociopathic brat. If she was in the least dissatisfied with my behavior, whether I was enduring a meltdown or a bad reaction to one of the medications perscribed to me, I was punished with the same cruelty that an irresponsible parent would punish any misbehaving child, and my life was Hell. Right now, however, my anger is shifting from her, for merely being weak, to you, for being an opportunistic coward.
You know that these parents would believe anything in the world in order to clear their conscience. You know that many of them would rush to embrace your homeopathic remedies if you came offering absolution.
I hate you with every bit of venom that I hate unscrupulous vegans who would peddle lies in order to propagandize their lifestyle.
You are the type of person who would take advantage of a weak, guilt-ridden woman like the person who gave birth to me.
You would use her.
As a tool for your own ends.
I hate you. I hate you with everything in my body.
Because, in the end, I know that I don't really hate my mother for her crimes against me. I hurt for her, and I hate you because you are another person who would have hurt her if you'd had a chance to get your filthy claws into her.
Do not take advantage of desperate people. It is wrong. |
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metalab
Hummingbird
Joined: Jan 23, 2008
Posts: 21
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 4:15 am Post subject: |
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I think the mercury autism link is malarchy.
Personally, if there is any relation to vaccines, I believe it has to do with the fact your stabbing kids with needles. Seriously, parents underestimate how tramautic a needle can be. I'm 21 and I still can't be comfortable standing near someone with a sharp object. I used to be really bad and couldn't even be in the same room as people with sharp objects unless I had like, the utmost amount of trust in them.
I mean imagine you take a hypersensitive kid to a doctor. The parents treat the kid all nice, sweetly, give the kid a treat or something to distract them. Put them in this really uncomfortable peculiar place and then forcibly inflict like the greatest pain they have probably ever felt up to that point in their life for reasons they can't even understand, or would probably not even agree with if they could. That would be some seriously traumatizing stuff there. I could totally understand how a kid could zone out after that and lose much trust in the world after that. |
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Griff
Phoenix
Joined: Nov 17, 2006
Posts: 1615
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 4:38 am Post subject: |
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| I've never been afraid of needles, hehehe. I always liked to watch! |
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AceX
Butterfly
Joined: Feb 24, 2008
Age: 29
Posts: 11
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 4:40 am Post subject: I know a case |
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There is a least one case that links Autism to the triple vaccine (MMR).
There was a normal girl that had the vaccine and cried for a week.
She is 30 now severly autistic. (still wearing dipers)
The doctors told the family that it was the vaccines wrongdoing but they were just unlucky.
See there was a faulty/contaminated stock of that vaccine on the market that somehow passed control.
But the vaccine itself was safe.
As a farmacist I find the "faulty but passed the controll" story quite far fetched.
If there was a stock of faulty vaccines on the market there should be similar cases.
I am personally aware of only one though. |
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zendell
Free Thinker
Joined: Nov 11, 2007
Posts: 1174
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 5:48 am Post subject: |
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| twosheds wrote: | A concession in a court case does not prove anything.
Please do not confuse the federal rules of civil procedure with the scientific method. |
Yet when someone posted the recent story where a judge dismissed an autism-thimerosal connection, many people here used that as evidence that thimerosal doesn't cause autism. I bet the same people will use your excuse to dismiss this ruling.
Judge rules no autism-vaccine connection -> evidence of no link to some people
Another Judge finds autism-vaccine connection -> doesn't mean anything to the same people
The reality is that judges rely on science to make their decisions. An autism-thimerosal connection hasn't been conclusively proven beyond the shadow of a doubt yet so the judge had no choice but to throw it out.
In this case, it was easier to show that the vaccines caused autism since the child had no symptoms before the vaccine but became autistic after it and also had medical test results to back it up. |
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Smelena
Cure Neurotypicals Now!
Joined: Apr 02, 2007
Posts: 2148
Location: Australia
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TLPG
Phoenix
Joined: Nov 13, 2007
Posts: 682
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 6:11 am Post subject: |
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| zendell wrote: | | twosheds wrote: | A concession in a court case does not prove anything.
Please do not confuse the federal rules of civil procedure with the scientific method. |
Yet when someone posted the recent story where a judge dismissed an autism-thimerosal connection, many people here used that as evidence that thimerosal doesn't cause autism. I bet the same people will use your excuse to dismiss this ruling.
Judge rules no autism-vaccine connection -> evidence of no link to some people
Another Judge finds autism-vaccine connection -> doesn't mean anything to the same people |
Excuse me, but the second one has never happened. The case referred to is yet to be heard - and if I'm right it's in the vaccine court.
Beau's right - David Kirby is a long time quack lover and a personal buddy of JB Handley, the founder of Generation Rescue. Take what he says with a grain of salt.
The decision of Judge Berger (the first case referred to here) set a precedent in the mainstream system, away from the vaccine court. The only way to counter that is to get a counter judgment made contradicting the ruling in a higher court. |
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Odin
Supreme Genius
Joined: Oct 13, 2006
Age: 22
Posts: 1885
Location: Moorhead, Minnesota, USA
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 8:49 am Post subject: |
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| Griff wrote: | Oh, another of these guys...I'm so sick of these people, and I have to say something.
Okay, please allow me to reiterate my position on this subject:
My skepticism toward the mercury poisoning theory is not my premise for believing that homeopathic medicine is complete bullhockey.
My premise for believing that homeopathic medicine is bullhockey is that it actually is a load of bullhockey. It's criminal rubbish. It's snake-oil. It's CRAP. Shove it up your arse.
Furthermore, I do not reject the possibility that mercury poisoning from vaccination is possible. I do not yet have sufficient background in biochemistry to weigh in on this subject, particularly as any kind of authority.
What you are doing is not defending the hypothesis that mercury poisoning could increase one's risk of developing autism. If you are going to say anything of the sort, you are an outright liar and ought to be completely ashamed of yourself.
I will tell you what you are doing:
You are attempting to use this hypothesis as a premise on which to deny that autism is generally genetically inherited. You are using this to stock the hopes of guilt-ridden parents who feel threatened by the possibility that something intrinsically "wrong" with themselves could be responsible for the distress endured by their children. Parents of autistic children do go through these feelings. I endured a lifetime of abuse from my mother, for example, because she has always held me completely to blame for these gnawing feelings within herself. Unfortunately, she was too weak to accept me as I was born to her, and I was, for my entire life, treated as a sociopathic brat. If she was in the least dissatisfied with my behavior, whether I was enduring a meltdown or a bad reaction to one of the medications perscribed to me, I was punished with the same cruelty that an irresponsible parent would punish any misbehaving child, and my life was Hell. Right now, however, my anger is shifting from her, for merely being weak, to you, for being an opportunistic coward.
You know that these parents would believe anything in the world in order to clear their conscience. You know that many of them would rush to embrace your homeopathic remedies if you came offering absolution.
But you are a quack.
I hate you with every bit of venom that I hate unscrupulous vegans who would peddle lies in order to propagandize their lifestyle.
You are vermin.
You are scum.
You are the type of person who would take advantage of a weak, guilt-ridden woman like the person who gave birth to me.
You would use her.
As a tool for your own ends.
I hate you. I hate you with everything in my body.
Because, in the end, I know that I don't really hate my mother for her crimes against me. I hurt for her, and I hate you because you are another person who would have hurt her if you'd had a chance to get your filthy claws into her.
Do not take advantage of desperate people. It is wrong. |
Quoted for truth!
_________________
My Blog: http://selzshaven.blogspot.com |
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Odin
Supreme Genius
Joined: Oct 13, 2006
Age: 22
Posts: 1885
Location: Moorhead, Minnesota, USA
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 8:53 am Post subject: Re: I know a case |
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| AceX wrote: | There is a least one case that links Autism to the triple vaccine (MMR).
There was a normal girl that had the vaccine and cried for a week.
She is 30 now severly autistic. (still wearing dipers)
The doctors told the family that it was the vaccines wrongdoing but they were just unlucky.
See there was a faulty/contaminated stock of that vaccine on the market that somehow passed control.
But the vaccine itself was safe.
As a farmacist I find the "faulty but passed the controll" story quite far fetched.
If there was a stock of faulty vaccines on the market there should be similar cases.
I am personally aware of only one though. |
Correlation-Causation fallacy. It is very common cognitive bias, and a source of many superstitions, to associate two things that occurred close together in time in terms of cause and effect when in fact no such relationship between the events exist.
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My Blog: http://selzshaven.blogspot.com |
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MrMark
Abstract Data Type
Joined: Jul 04, 2006
Age: 50
Posts: 9879
Location: Tallahassee, FL
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 9:20 am Post subject: |
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Griff, please refrain from name-calling on these forums.
I am not a scientist. I don't know what causes autism. I have posted numerous news articles reporting no link between vaccines and autism. I have looked for news articles from mainstream organizations presenting the other point of view and not found one until now. I'm disappointed I didn't find it first.
If you read the article carefully, the government has not conceded a direct link between vaccines and autism. They have conceded that, "the child had a pre-existing mitochondrial disorder that was "aggravated" by her shots, and which ultimately resulted in an ASD diagnosis," and that compensation was appropriate.
This is a forum for discussion of issues. Zendell has repeatedly insisted that there is a link between vaccines and autism. I have never told him that he was wrong. I have only told him that his was the minority view and that the tide was moving against him.
If you believe that anybody who disagrees with you is just wrong or worse, stupid, then there is no place for you on this forum. There are other autism forums on the web which cater to people who feel this way.
_________________
"As rain falls on the just and the unjust alike, let your heart be untroubled by judgments and let your kindness rain on all."
- from The Zhuang-zi (Chuang Tzu)
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