Post 1292994 - (*"Homeschooler /Anti-School C. R. Thread!"*)

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*"Homeschooler /Anti-School C. R. Thread!"*

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schleppenheimer
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Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 2:35 pm Post subject:

ouinon wrote:

You aren't suggesting that your son's three good years out of 14 is satisfactory, though, or that it is possible for everybody to live in the nice regions, ( if in fact that was enough to make a difference), are you?

No, and WOW -- I think you have no idea how offensive that remark could be to a parent!

First of all, I am all for your right to homeschool. I think it's WONDERFUL! I think you should be commended for your work, and I would NEVER think of saying such offensive things to you. I also am grateful that you've told us about your negative experiences with your schooling, and therefore, if I had those experiences as well, I would see homeschooling as the ONLY GOOD OPTION. I cannot find one thing wrong with your statements about THAT.

On the other hand, you have NO IDEA what you're talking about when you are talking about my children and my family. For one thing, when my older son was going through his negative school situations, HE HADN'T BEEN DIAGNOSED WITH ANY PROBLEM. It was only when our younger son was diagnosed with high-functioning autism that we realized that maybe our older son was dealing with a mild form of Asperger's syndrome. So, to answer your question, NO, I don't think that three good years out of 14 is satisfactory, and I really find your question to be unkind.

What I WAS saying, if you could listen for a minute without reading much of these posts through the prism of your own experience, was that I have found that there are different cultures within schools, partly due to where a person may live. In the Northeast U.S., academics is more important, cliques are more important, and being kind or accepting "seems" to be less important than in other places I have lived with my family (and even what I am saying here is a HUGE generalization.) I grew up on the West coast, where (and I generalize again, here) academics is less important, but there is much more acceptance of differences in people. Therefore one's school experience could be much more enjoyable for a kid on the spectrum. With my son, he enjoyed being one of the smarter kids in school, while at the same time, his peers seemed to enjoy him BECAUSE he was so smart AND BECAUSE he was so different. The teachers were kinder to him because he was a better student. His whole experience was much nicer. And it wasn't for just three years. This experience benefited him when he returned to the Northeast to school. Then, we moved again to California, and he had a good experience there as well (for one year).

I worried, and worried, and worried over this son -- and he's only mildly affected. He is now in college, has a work internship in his chosen major, is paying partially for his tuition, has many friends and a wonderful girlfriend. He is STILL the same kid he was in high school -- very liberal (and going to an incredibly conservative university), very opinionated, still very different from his peers, but he's found a way to hold on to his individualism, and hold on to what is so spectacular about people with Asperger's, and yet he blends well with society. Most of all, and he would tell you this, he is HAPPY and CONTENT.

Is this due to being in public school? No! I'm never going to say that I'm happy with public school, because I'm not. I agree with most of your points -- it's too regimented, it doesn't take into account individuality and special abilities, and there is much going on in public school that is not positive. I do not, however, believe that ALL public schools are as awful as you say they are, and I also do not believe, as it would appear from so many of your posts, that ANY PARENT WHO ALLOWS THEIR CHILD TO ATTEND PUBLIC SCHOOL DOESN'T REALLY CARE FOR THEIR CHILD. Even if I am considering homeschooling my child, it is not due to a public school that isn't fulfilling my child's needs. The school he is attending has been nothing but kind to him, even the other students are good to him. Not all students, of course, but the lion's share are. Middle school is notoriously awful for most kids, and was for my NT daughter, but my son has said he enjoys it more than elementary school. I think that he would really miss his friends, even though he has just a handful, if he was homeschooled. Sure, he would make new ones, and I think that he would do well to be homeschooled. I just don't have enough information currently to make a decision yet.

I apologize if I sounded angry. I guess I am. I think anyone would be if the implication was put out that it was ok with us as parents to send our children to a school where they are being abused by teachers, administration, and students. It's not ok at all, and if I ever had any idea from my youngest son that this was going on, I would yank him out of school in a New York minute. So far, that's not the case IN HIS SITUATION. AND, my older son WAS having a rough time like this in elementary school, BUT HE NEVER TOLD ME about it until he was older. Even if he had, I knew nothing about Asperger's syndrome at the time, and wouldn't have had an understanding about sensory difficulties, social difficulties, etc. I even asked him periodically, and this older son wouldn't tell me, and always came HOME in a cheerful mood as an elementary student. It was highly confusing. Only when he became a moody teenager did I come to understand some of the difficulties he was going through -- and that's right when he began to find more acceptance with peers at school, and things began to turn around for him.

I guess my point is this: There is no one-size fits-all answer to the homeschooling -- public education situation. What works for each individual family is best, and I'm happy for those who have found the right answer for THEM.

Kris

ouinon
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Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 3:13 pm Post subject:

schleppenheimer wrote:

I don't think that three good years out of 14 is satisfactory, and I really find your question to be unkind.

I didn't mean to be unkind; I know that you couldn't possibly think it was satisfactory, but I didn't understand why you seemed to describe his experience as some kind of defence of state school. I now realise that it was specifically and precisely to prove how immensely different districts can be.

But as I said I don't believe that it is possible for everyone to live only in the nice areas. Thus introducing a major element of privilege. In fact I think that even the better places are still suffering from most of the profound flaws which result in loss of autonomy, etc, for many children. They may just seem like oases of peace and comfort after worse models.

Quote:

I worried, and worried, and worried over this son -- and he's only mildly affected. He is now in college, has a work internship in his chosen major, is paying partially for his tuition, has many friends and a wonderful girlfriend. He is STILL the same kid he was in high school .. very opinionated, still very different from his peers, but he's found a way to hold on to his individualism, and hold on to what is so spectacular about people with Asperger's, and yet he blends well with society. Most of all, and he would tell you this, he is HAPPY and CONTENT.

i am really glad that things have turned out so well.

Quote:

Is this due to being in public school? No! I'm never going to say that I'm happy with public school, because I'm not. I agree with most of your points -- it's too regimented, it doesn't take into account individuality and special abilities, and there is much going on in public school that is not positive. I do not, however, believe that ALL public schools are as awful as you say they are, and I also do not believe, as it would appear from so many of your posts, that ANY PARENT WHO ALLOWS THEIR CHILD TO ATTEND PUBLIC SCHOOL DOESN'T REALLY CARE FOR THEIR CHILD.

I don't believe that.

I think that most mistakes made about what is good for other people/one's children, are not the result of "not caring" but the result of "not knowing".

I am desperate that people should know, really know; not just think that homeschooling is an option for minority of people, a strange fringe lifestyle choice; that they should really know that there is a serious case against the common widespread form of state schooling. I read so many threads on here which indicate that for most people state school is all they consider.

This makes me feel very sad, and somewhat angry too. But I do not mean that non-homeschoolers are uncaring. I just think that many have unnecessarily/unfortunately narrow ideas of homeschooling, who it's for, what it's like etc.

The bias is almost without exception in favour of state school, despite the fact that it is doing an increasingly abysmal job.

Quote:

I apologize if I sounded angry.

I apologise if I seemed unkind. I was confused, and sometimes that makes me snipey, but I genuinely did not believe that you thought it was satisfactory. Obviously you could not.

Quote:

.. my older son WAS having a rough time like this in elementary school, BUT HE NEVER TOLD ME about it until he was older. Even if he had, I knew nothing about Asperger's syndrome at the time, and wouldn't have had an understanding about sensory difficulties, social difficulties, etc.

I don't follow why his aspergers diagnosis would have altered anything earlier on. If he seemed happy as you say, you would have had no reason to do anything.

Quote:

I even asked him periodically, and this older son wouldn't tell me, and always came HOME in a cheerful mood as an elementary student. It was highly confusing.

Yes, I can imagine.

Thank you for replying so fully. Smile

Last edited by ouinon on Sat Mar 22, 2008 3:36 pm; edited 6 times in total

ouinon
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Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 3:23 pm Post subject:

I found another excellent article, about the bullying issue; "Where Does the Bullying Mentality Come From ?" by Roland Meighan, at: http://edheretics.gn.apc.org/EHT005.htm It's a wonderful article in fact. When I read these things I feel sane. As the little boy says to his father at the end, "Now that I know that there are other people who think school is crackers I can cope with it!"... "find bits of treasure in the wreck". Knowing that other people know that it is a wreck is such a relief to me. I wish that I had known that as a child, at school.

DW_a_mom
Ignoring the To-Do List
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Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 3:50 pm Post subject:

ouinon wrote:

I just found another article which puts it much better than I do. It ocurs to me that if I sound frustrated that might be the reason. Wink

:

http://www.naturalchild.org/guest/john_gatto.html

Cool

I think there are interesting points, and select lessons to be learned, but overall, I simply do not agree. I, personally, have always enjoyed, yes ENJOYED, the classroom setting as way to educate myself. I like the exchange of ideas, the meeting of face to face. Lecture halls - not so much. But I've taken wonderful classes in my lifetime. At least, that is how I saw it then.

There are many ways to acquire knowledge, and I encourage everyone to use what works best for them. I am simply not going to fall into what I see as edge thinking that all schools are bad places. It doesn't fit with my life experience, nor with that of my friends and family.
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DW_a_mom
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Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 3:57 pm Post subject:

ouinon wrote:

Knowing that other people know that it is a wreck is such a relief to me. I wish that I had known that as a child, at school.

Cool

I wish you had, too. From what I've read in your posts, things would have been profoundly different for you if a better alternative had been found for you.
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Mom to an amazing AS boy (plus a non-AS daughter). Have at least a few AS genes myself, although probably more NT than AS.
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ouinon
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Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 4:13 pm Post subject:

DW_a_mom wrote:

ouinon wrote:

Knowing that other people know that it is a wreck is such a relief to me. I wish that I had known that as a child, at school.

I wish you had, too. From what I've read in your posts, things would have been profoundly different for you if a better alternative had been found for you.

And for hundreds of thousands of other children, now and in the past.

DW_a_mom wrote:

I personally have always enjoyed the classroom setting as a way to educate myself. I like the exchange of ideas.

I got used to it, adapted, was certain teachers' star pupil, was consequently called teachers pet, and dictionary, until I learned to stop caring about anything we were studying. I even reached the point where I could make other children laugh, by taking the piss of the headmistress for example, etc. I was not afraid to contribute in class. I was able to get by on course work with little effort, but getting by is all I did.

The trouble is that none of this had anything to do with what I really wanted to do. It was just a superb piece of "art" (artifice), my presence in class an acting activity, and I learned almost nothing apart from how to do that.

I have no idea at all what you mean by "exchange of ideas". There was almost none of that, apart from late on, age 17-19, in literature classes, discussing books.

And I know that my experience of school is not unusual. It is the majority one. Most people find school boring, alienating, mindnumbing, disempowering. It is you that are the exception/in the minority.

Cool

DW_a_mom
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Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 4:34 pm Post subject:

ouinon wrote:

I have no idea at all what you mean by "exchange of ideas". There was almost none of that, apart from late on, age 17-19, in literature classes, discussing books.

And I know that my experience of school is not unusual. It is the majority one. Most people find school boring, alienating, mindnumbing, disempowering. It is you that are the exception/in the minority.

Cool

I do agree I was in the minority. But I was also fortunate to have good schools and good teachers. And, probably, an unprecedented amount of freedom in selecting my courses as a result of the combination of having been identified as gifted, and the ideals of the time period in which I grew up. In elementary school I did a lot of break-out and independent study, and by the middle of Jr. High I was unusally in classes with maybe a dozen students, total. And, yes, we were encouraged to share ideas and interact. It was part of being allocated to that higher tier of course work.

Of course, my recent experiences with school are those I CHOOSE, like taking art classes at a nearby college just for fun, or studying for my Master's Degree in my field of speciality at work. The later were classes of 20-30 students all working while studying in the same field as I was, and there was much sharing of personal experience with the issues in class. No one would take those classes if they weren't interesting, since they certainly are not required.

My point is NOT that it is for everyone, just that the blanket statements about it ALL being instrinsically bad are incorrect. Some individuals actually thrive in school. Funny thing, isn't it? People are different. Schools are different. Good combinations happen. And, yes, I have trouble swallowing articles that insist it is impossible. That's bunk.
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schleppenheimer
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Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 6:32 pm Post subject:

ouinon, thank you for your nice post. I really appreciate your words. I did read the article "Why Schools Don't Educate". I agree with a lot of what is being said, mostly the parts about a child should have the TIME to self-educate, the TIME to explore and be curious. We have systematically, as a culture (in the U.S. -- I'm not sure about elsewhere) taken away a child's chance to be a child. I have often wondered for my children, where is the time to just lay on the ground, and look up at the sky? To figure out where the clouds are going, and what shapes they are in? To catch fireflies in the summer, and release them before we go to bed? What happened to spending time with grandparents, and asking what life was like when they were children? Why are we in such a rush? So, in that way, homeschooling provides more of the opportunity for that kind of development, and I think that there is no question that it can provide a truly well-rounded child and carry them into adulthood. THIS is why it is such a tempting choice, and once the choice was made, would probably be a good one that one would never have to look back on with disappointment. My other real complaint about public schools, and I'm sure other parents here would agree, that I'm so tired of our schools preparing our children for standardized tests, and NOTHING else, it would seem. Just drives me crazy! We have some good teachers, but their hands are tied by the federal government demanding a ridiculous level of satisfaction, pretending that children achieving through these tests warrants whether or not a school receives funding. It just zaps so much of the life out of the classroom. So, homeschooling is looking like a better and better option. Kris

DW_a_mom
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Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 6:37 pm Post subject:

schleppenheimer wrote:

I have often wondered for my children, where is the time to just lay on the ground, and look up at the sky? To figure out where the clouds are going, and what shapes they are in? To catch fireflies in the summer, and release them before we go to bed? What happened to spending time with grandparents, and asking what life was like when they were children? Why are we in such a rush?

Kris

This is very true. It seems that the list of "must do's" has gotten so long that children in many families have little time to follow their initiative - or do nothing at all. Fortunately, my son isn't shy about telling us he needs that time, so we spend far more time than the average American family at home doing nothing. But it feels like fighting against the wind. My poor children do not play musical instruments, speak foreign languages, swim with a team, ride horses play sports year around (lol, my neice does nearly all of these). To hear my SIL tell us how important all the things we DON'T do are ... well, it gets difficult. I wish we had MORE down time for the kids, not less!

Yes, ouinon's post to you was very nicely stated, and did a good job of selling homeschooling. I do think it is a very good choice for many families with Aspie children.

I am talking way, way WAY too much. My apologies.
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Mom to an amazing AS boy (plus a non-AS daughter). Have at least a few AS genes myself, although probably more NT than AS.
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Think of the greening of my name as an emeritus thing; I used to be a moderator but am retired and have no authority to act

ouinon
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Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 3:26 am Post subject:

A few links that I posted on General Autism but are more appropriate here: http://www.straight.com/article/activist-urges-kids-to-drop-out-and-learn http://www.mightymatthern.com/everywhere_allthetime.html http://www.educationrevolution.org/matthern.html I realised that I saw very recently how easily my son might have been labelled, in fact become ADHD or otherwise ( more ) learning disabled, if he had gone to school, in the african percussion class he went to once a week until a couple of weeks ago. We stopped ( after talking about it), because the combination of 1) two noisy metal instruments introduced this term and 2) a group of 3-4 children who had begun to mock him, and chant insults at him on occasion, was having a significantly disturbing/overloading effect on him. On a couple of occasions, parents waiting with me outside, watching through the big windows, remarked that he seemed in another world, and wondered , in a nice enough way, why he came. For quite a long time he had enjoyed it because he loved the music, and the warm up session and break up time playing with the other children. But this term the mockery and the harsh clanging instruments put a stop to that. Before he decided to stop going I noticed behaviour which I could see would look "odd"; not only the blank switched off moments, but short periods of wriggling, sudden gesticulating, grimacing, and smiling at nothing, aswell as comments out loud to nobody, and more wriggling, as if he were discharging accumulated tension with movement. The thing is that he doesn't do this at home, and until this class I had never seen him behaving like this. It was in direct reaction to the class environment. It's taken me a couple of weeks to understand that I literally saw my son developing "problems". Which he hasn't got, except in a too noisy and somewhat hostile/stressful environment. And that was just one hour, once a week, with 12 children. Well, he's stopped now. He still goes to Karate, and fencing, but they are quiet, and he can discharge tension constantly through the movement, and the Karate master is brilliant.

Ana54
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Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 2:21 pm Post subject:

I want my kids to have an education uncontrolled by politics too. Though since moderation is probably good, sending them to school for a while is a good way to teach them about the school system and how it usually sucks! I'd have fun either way; with a kid in the same school all the way thru because he loves it, or with a kid constantly changing schools or changing sometimes, which is a blast as well, or totally at home doing what they want with guidance and encouragement (like, if I find my kid mixing up stuff in the kitchen and making a mess, I wouldn't force it on them, but I'd show them some fun cookbooks with color pictures and say "Hey, do you want to help me make a spongecake?" or if I see my kid watching lots of movies with fighting I'd encourage them to take self-defence. Or if I saw them playing shoot-em-up games I'd bring them some military pamphlets and show them the armed forces website. I think that putting kids in a room and trying to discipline them into learning is only going to make them learn that they live in an oppressive sort of society, that they are being controlled by people who think they know better than them, how if they don't pass all these tests they may never have a career, etc. All that negative stuff, and all those negative movies they show kids in school to scare them. "This is what became of Andy when he dropped out of school." Every kid I met that dropped out of school dropped out due to stress. The stress of being told that they had to pass this test or else, they had to study hard or bad things would happen, they had to do all this huge mountain of homework or they would lose hope of getting into a good university and a good career, because this is a Competitive World and we have to Work Very Hard Or We Will Fail And Just Be Mediocre. And those videos they show those kids-- so and so dropped out "to do drugs", he's a loser now, look at him. Aversive therapy. Threats, warnings, all negativity. "Fear the system, fear life, fear any kind fo slacking or laziness or needing a break." It means you aren't good enough; survival of the fittest. It teaches you that if you need a break, you have a weakness that could kill you; you aren't good enough. You need to be always on the ball, hitting the books every night for 4 hours, "We don't care if you have a life or need a life, that's your problem." "Oh, we're only trying to prepare you for the real world!" A life of fear? Is that what the real world is like? A life of stress and constantly trying to keep up and being labeled disabled or lazy (aka gas chamber material) if you don't, and feeling dumber and more useless? I totally don't want to subject my children to a constant barrage of this like so many parents do. Thanks for listening to my rant.

ouinon
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Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 12:46 pm Post subject:

iamnotaparakeet just posted some statistics about homeschooled children's academic achievements on the News and Current Events Forum at: http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt67288.html They make inspiring and, for a parent of a homeschooler anyway, heartening reading!

westernwild
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Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 5:07 pm Post subject:

I'm the proud daughter of two public school teachers and a very strong supporter of public education and teachers. However, I also believe in homeschooling for those who wish to do so and admire those who take on this monumental, challenging, often-thankless task, especially when they're responsible for running everything else in the household as well. _________________ Queen of the anti-FAAAS. FAAAS does NOT speak for me and many other families!! Life is not about waiting out storms, but learning to dance in the rain-Anonymous

ouinon
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Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 3:28 am Post subject:

westernwild wrote:

I also believe in homeschooling for those who wish to do so and admire those who take on this monumental, challenging, often-thankless task, especially when they're responsible for running everything else in the household as well.

Not at all monumental or thankless. And challenging only when the authorities want to inspect the results of it, despite studies, ( see link above ), showing that homeschoolers have significantly better academic results than public schooled children.

What would be a monumental and thankless task would be sending my son to school, and nightly trying and failing to repair the damage.

Monumental? We both get up when we want, ( between 7.30 and 9.00 ), play or post on the internet for about 3 hours during the day (on average) . We spend about an hour and a half on the corr. school's assessed homework, and the rest of time my son reads, plays, and learns naturally while doing so.

School spends a ludicrously huge amount of time making learning seem a chore, and teaching submission to authority. My son learned to read with no teaching at all; children learn if they think something is useful or interesting. The reason so many have so many problems in school, which the teachers, parents, and children, then have to deal with, is that school is boring.

Monumental? Thankless? Laughing

This, homeschooling, is easier than it would be just to get him up, washed, fed, and dressed every day to go to school. It is parents of chiildren who go to school who have the monumental task, and a thankless one.

study

westernwild
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Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 5:46 pm Post subject:

ouinon wrote:

westernwild wrote:

Well, I hope your child realizes that he simply won't be able to just get up when he wants and do what he wants most of the time when he joins the real world. That's just the way it is. Say what you want about schools, they really do do the best they can for the most part with what they have. They have to take ALL kids of ALL levels and abilities, they can't pick and choose like private schools. And if you don't think teaching is a monumental, challenging and often thankless job, then you're not doing it right. My parents worked very hard for forty years and did a damn good job at it, too. Their major obstacles were most administrators and administration, state and federal legislators who don't know a damn thing about education but who stick their noses in with ridiculous laws and mandates, and parents who insist the teacher be everything and anything and do everything, even though they don't have them nearly as much as the parents do, and who insist that their little Johnny would never do anything wrong and it's all the teacher's fault.
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Life is not about waiting out storms, but learning to dance in the rain-Anonymous

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