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lau
Quinquaginta Novem! Male Gee-knee-us + silly bits.
Joined: Jun 18, 2006
Age: 59
Posts: 6278
Location: Somerset UK
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 Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 7:56 am Post subject: |
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| sinsboldly wrote: | | That is what I want to ask, is AS what makes me ME wouldn't I be just as dynamic a humanbeing without being born with AS? Wouldn't I be just as intelligent, have just as perfect pitch and really good singing voice? wouldn't I still be a visual person? |
If you were born without legs, wouldn't you be able to walk just as well? If you were born without honesty, would you find lying just as abhorrent? These two questions seem to have much simpler answers that yours, but I'd emphasize the word "seem", there. If your genetic profile were changed to such an extent as to result in you not being autistic, would other of your traits be affected? I think the answer to that has to be a resounding "yes". Which traits, specifically? I guess we'll find out, one day.
| sinsboldly wrote: | | There are people that are smart that are not AS, and people that can sing well. Would I lose all these talents I love that make me, me? |
I don't think you are your talents. Maybe I even think one is more characterized by one's shortcomings, than one's competencies.
| sinsboldly wrote: | | I would just aquire mirror neurons, and the ability to read faces, or even recognize faces, I would intuitively know what was appropriate in a conversation and be able to bond with people that love me. |
I feel "mirror neurons" may be a synonym for "sympathetic magic". Given any cerebral activity, I'm sure you can correlate it with the activity in some neurons, in some people, in some anatomical area. Implying some direct relationship sounds... optimistic? (Maybe good for getting your grant renewed, though.)
| sinsboldly wrote: | | What's wrong with that? |
There's nothing "wrong" with being a different person. You certainly would not be the "you" that you are though. (And my life would be poorer, for not having met you, but that's beside the point.)
_________________
new, adj. Different colour from previous model.
Novinson's Revolutionary Discovery: When comes the revolution, things will be different -- not better, just different. |
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Prof_Pretorius
troubled Soul
Joined: Aug 21, 2006
Age: 50
Posts: 4233
Location: Hiding in the attic of the Arkham Library
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| Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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Reminds me of the Twilight Zone episode where an eccentric chap is given the choice to become popular and successful by a guardian angel.
He plays (American) football with the kids in his neighborhood, drives an antique car, works at a desk job, and builds model ships. His angel appears, and changes all that. He is changed into a businessman, drives a sportscar, and has all the trappings of success.
The result?
Instead of loving his new life, he misses being a nerd. In the end the angel returns him to the way he was.
We can only speculate what we (that is, our personality) would be like without the influence of AS. It would be jolly fun to see, if only for a day. But we can't, and I don't imagine we'll ever be able to. As for meself, I worked for a "successful" outgoing salesman, who was popular and well liked. I'd no more trade my life for his than I'd trade to be a parrot.
_________________
I wake to sleep, and take my waking slow. I feel my fate in what I cannot fear. I learn by going where I have to go. ~Theodore Roethke |
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Orwell
Outer Party Member
Joined: Aug 09, 2007
Age: 18
Posts: 2568
Location: Room 101
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| Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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| sinsboldly wrote: |
That is what I want to ask, is AS what makes me ME wouldn't I be just as dynamic a humanbeing without being born with AS? Wouldn't I be just as intelligent, have just as perfect pitch and really good singing voice? wouldn't I still be a visual person?
There are people that are smart that are not AS, and people that can sing well. Would I lose all these talents I love that make me, me?
I would just aquire mirror neurons, and the ability to read faces, or even recognize faces, I would intuitively know what was appropriate in a conversation and be able to bond with people that love me.
What's wrong with that? |
But autism has shaped how you have developed through your life. Without autism, you would be no better or worse, but you would be different. I have never claimed that without autism you would be dumber, a poorer singer, or that you would not have perfect pitch. Those traits you listed are believed by some to be correlated with autism, but autistics certainly are not the only ones to display them.
Autism isn't entirely what makes you you, but it is a part of you. Or at least, it's a part of me. I don't know whether I would be "better" or "happier" if I weren't autistic, but I am happy with who I am.
_________________
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH |
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Prof_Pretorius
troubled Soul
Joined: Aug 21, 2006
Age: 50
Posts: 4233
Location: Hiding in the attic of the Arkham Library
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| Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 1:43 am Post subject: |
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| Orwell wrote: |
But autism has shaped how you have developed through your life. Without autism, you would be no better or worse, but you would be different.
Autism isn't entirely what makes you you, but it is a part of you. Or at least, it's a part of me. I don't know whether I would be "better" or "happier" if I weren't autistic, but I am happy with who I am. |
To be truly happy who you are is the best revenge.
_________________
I wake to sleep, and take my waking slow. I feel my fate in what I cannot fear. I learn by going where I have to go. ~Theodore Roethke |
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sinsboldly
Free Range Aspie
Joined: Nov 22, 2006
Age: 57
Posts: 6122
Location: The Emerald Forest
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| Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 3:09 am Post subject: |
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| lau wrote: | | sinsboldly wrote: | | That is what I want to ask, is AS what makes me ME wouldn't I be just as dynamic a humanbeing without being born with AS? Wouldn't I be just as intelligent, have just as perfect pitch and really good singing voice? wouldn't I still be a visual person? |
If you were born without legs, wouldn't you be able to walk just as well? If you were born without honesty, would you find lying just as abhorrent? These two questions seem to have much simpler answers that yours, but I'd emphasize the word "seem", there.
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If I were born with no legs I would not be expected by other people to walk, if I was born without honesty people would mark me as not to be trusted, but I would still be able to bond and read facial expressions and practice group socialization. With an 'invisible' handicap or alter ability I am expected to be like others because there are no telling cues ( wheelchair or bad reputation) to warn them off.
| lau wrote: | | If your genetic profile were changed to such an extent as to result in you not being autistic, would other of your traits be affected? I think the answer to that has to be a resounding "yes". Which traits, specifically? I guess we'll find out, one day. |
wow, do you believe that there shall be some grand day of reckoning and I will find out what traits are to do with my neurological makeup and what traits are part of my personality???
| lau wrote: | | sinsboldly wrote: | | There are people that are smart that are not AS, and people that can sing well. Would I lose all these talents I love that make me, me? |
I don't think you are your talents. Maybe I even think one is more characterized by one's shortcomings, than one's competencies. |
oh, I see. well. . .no wonder I am such a shining personality if I am being judged by my bounty of shortcomings! I have no end nor boundry to the subjects and topic in which I am insufficient!
| lau wrote: | | sinsboldly wrote: | | I would just aquire mirror neurons, and the ability to read faces, or even recognize faces, I would intuitively know what was appropriate in a conversation and be able to bond with people that love me. |
I feel "mirror neurons" may be a synonym for "sympathetic magic". Given any cerebral activity, I'm sure you can correlate it with the activity in some neurons, in some people, in some anatomical area. Implying some direct relationship sounds... optimistic? (Maybe good for getting your grant renewed, though.) |
If Tony Attwood is correct, I am just another Aspie that can't organize a piss up in a brewery. I have failed, so far, to arrainge everyone needed to get a DX, so getting a grant is far, far away. Living in a barbarous nation in a very independent state with none other than the steady pulse of the internet as a lifeline to how AS is seen in other places in the world, I have not been able to find the magic bullet of a DX that might get me on the dole.
| lau wrote: | | sinsboldly wrote: | | What's wrong with that? |
There's nothing "wrong" with being a different person. You certainly would not be the "you" that you are though. (And my life would be poorer, for not having met you, but that's beside the point.) |
well, it is actually THE point, but we don't need to discuss that here  .
Merle |
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auntyjack
Tufted Titmouse
Joined: Feb 03, 2006
Posts: 39
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| Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 3:09 am Post subject: |
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"I would just aquire mirror neurons, and the ability to read faces, or even recognize faces, I would intuitively know what was appropriate in a conversation and be able to bond with people that love me.
What's wrong with that?"
1. Acquiring mirror neurones is not a guarantee of social competance. There are many nt ppl who have terrible social skills and no empathy or compassion at all. The community you live in will have a deep influence on this.
2. There is nothing wrong with not liking the way your life is progressing. You have some choices. Accept it and do nothing, maybe medicate to suppress anxiety and depression. Fight it and try to be what you are not. To a degree most people try to acquire some of the social skills that will enable them to participate in life. Work with autism, not against it so you can value your strengths as an autistic person and work with that as much as possible. Most of us would move between modes depending on what is happening in our lives. I see 2 and 3 as most productive, but there is nothing like a good wallow in misery sometimes. |
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Orwell
Outer Party Member
Joined: Aug 09, 2007
Age: 18
Posts: 2568
Location: Room 101
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| Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 8:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Prof_Pretorius wrote: | | Orwell wrote: |
But autism has shaped how you have developed through your life. Without autism, you would be no better or worse, but you would be different.
Autism isn't entirely what makes you you, but it is a part of you. Or at least, it's a part of me. I don't know whether I would be "better" or "happier" if I weren't autistic, but I am happy with who I am. |
To be truly happy who you are is the best revenge. |
Who am I getting revenge on?
_________________
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH |
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Jonesy
Butterfly
Joined: Mar 23, 2008
Posts: 9
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 5:50 am Post subject: No cure for personality. |
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When I think of helping people with autism, I don't think of a cure that would make the person become average. That's ridiculous. I've always heard "average" as an insult, utterly boring with nothing much to add to society. I think more of therapies than "cures". I just want to have enough control over myself that I can make a living and be reasonably happy.
When I was in high school (and early college), I got a lot more work done on my personal projects than I do now. I was also much, much more of a basket-case. Almost all my excess nervous energy went into programming, research, art, and so forth. And I had lots of time for that stuff before I had a girlfriend (then a wife, then a daughter...). I guess what I'm saying is that being totally alone and depressed and restless was part of my identity, and it made me more productive. Now, I seem much more social, relaxed, almost normal. I get less done now, but I certainly wouldn't want to go back to how I was.
Ideally, people should be able to choose just how much of a cure they want. It's best to just tone down your problems a little until they become manageable. As far as I know, nobody has an easy life.
As a side note, nobody out there try Effexor; it's poison. |
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riverotter
Phoenix
Joined: Oct 11, 2007
Age: 35
Posts: 740
Location: the greater Milwaukee area
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| Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 9:48 am Post subject: |
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| Prof_Pretorius wrote: | | This illustrates perfectly the schism between us "Elder ASpies" and the younger ones. We went through most of our life just feeling "odd" or "eccentric". We accepted that, and used it to the best of our abilities. I have always been proud of my creativity. When presented with a problem, I could brainstorm quickly, and come up with a solution that others didn't. My problem has always been social interaction, and office politics. But younger people nowadays get DX'd early on, and THAT becomes part of their identity. Something like 95% of all the people I've mentioned AS to have never heard of it. When I say it's HFA, they look at me like I have lobsters coming out my ears. I don't appear to be anywhere near what people think HFA "looks like". So I really have difficulty understanding how young people manage to go around saying "I'm AS" and people just answer, "Oh, OK". |
This is so true, Prof. Anyone born in the cohort before the big rush for recognizing and diagnosing ASD's in early childhood and primary grades must have had a much different experience from, say, Alex Plank.
Recognizing that there is a Name for my difference alters my identity (by this I mean, how I view myself); joining WP has also altered my identity, simply by existing as a community to which I now belong.
Yet, I feel compelled to add that the definition of "marginalize" (in response to the OP) is, according to my Encarta dictionary,
"prevent from having attention or power: to take or keep somebody or something away from the center of attention, influence, or power" which is maybe not what the OP meant? Did you mean "ignore" or "distance oneself from"? |
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sinsboldly
Free Range Aspie
Joined: Nov 22, 2006
Age: 57
Posts: 6122
Location: The Emerald Forest
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| Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 12:38 pm Post subject: |
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| auntyjack wrote: | "I would just aquire mirror neurons, and the ability to read faces, or even recognize faces, I would intuitively know what was appropriate in a conversation and be able to bond with people that love me.
What's wrong with that?"
1. Acquiring mirror neurones is not a guarantee of social competance. There are many nt ppl who have terrible social skills and no empathy or compassion at all. The community you live in will have a deep influence on this.
2. There is nothing wrong with not liking the way your life is progressing. You have some choices. Accept it and do nothing, maybe medicate to suppress anxiety and depression. Fight it and try to be what you are not. To a degree most people try to acquire some of the social skills that will enable them to participate in life. Work with autism, not against it so you can value your strengths as an autistic person and work with that as much as possible. Most of us would move between modes depending on what is happening in our lives. I see 2 and 3 as most productive, but there is nothing like a good wallow in misery sometimes. |
oh, and here I was thinking having mirror neurons would help me fit in! I saw a video of it once that described how flocks of birds 'knew' to fly as one, and the same with schools of fish. When cheerleaders danced in a group, it was their 'mirror neurons' that helped them keep time and synchronize their movements. This is what I mean as 'mirror neurons' that maybe could have given me a physical grace I have not been able to master.
that's all.
Merle |
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Semi_Lost_Serenity
Snowy Owl
Joined: Jun 01, 2007
Age: 26
Posts: 143
Location: Insanity
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| Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:55 pm Post subject: |
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Wow. A lot of good, good replies - I hardly know where to start in my paper (which is due tomorrow!).
While we are talking about identities as relating to the autistic community and what a cure would mean to these identities, I want to take this discussion a step further. I am not sure how to ask this question, so please bare with me.
What solutions can you think of that would bridge this "gap" between NT's and Aspies? Is there even a gap at all?
I know one step would be more awareness and education. Nt's do need to be more mindful of the difficulties of those on the spectrum.
However, Aspies also need to be mindful of social neccessities - there are some who think that, regardless of who a person is, they need to know the basics of what it is to be "a person". In other words, table manners, saying "Please" and "Thank you", giving up your seat for the elderly - the social neccesities that everyone needs to learn for the sake of humanity.
I am not trying to insult anyone - I'm in the same boat! I know the frustration of trying to learn something that you didn't know existed - my mom had to hammer into my skull some of these "rituals".
I just want to know your thoughts on this issue. What are some solutions that both NT's and Aspie's can work together on, so that both voices are heard without one drowning the other out (like Autistic Speaks, for example)?
Thanks!
_________________
"Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference." Robert Frost |
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Pixel8
Pileated woodpecker
Joined: Aug 17, 2005
Age: 42
Posts: 177
Location: Bristol, UK
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| Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 2:15 am Post subject: |
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| I like to think that variety is the spice of life, genetic mutation is the engine of evolution, the human mind is a dazzlingly complex thing and society needs some aspies sprinkled into the mix to help it collectively reach uncharted territory in its understanding of some things. |
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biostructure
Sea Gull
Joined: Dec 18, 2006
Posts: 232
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| Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 4:44 am Post subject: |
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| I feel that being on the autism spectrum is an important part of my identity. However, I don't feel as if my emotions and thoughts work like the "typical" autistic either, if there even is such a thing. In other words, it's not as if I come here and after reading people's comments, get the impression "that describes me perfectly as well". This is particularly true when it comes to discussing relationships with the opposite sex, but is noticeable in other areas as well. This makes me often feel like an outsider even within the autistic community. |
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SKOREAPV83
Blue Jay
Joined: Aug 13, 2007
Age: 24
Posts: 93
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
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| Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 2:05 pm Post subject: re: autism as identity |
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| I am proud to claim autism as a cultural identity. It's NOT popular to claim, nor has it been studied that people with ASDs have their own culture. But we do. I REFUSE to change my culture to suit anyone other than myself. I don't care how long it'll take for me to change jobs, get new friends, etc. People gotta learn to take me the way I am but no...no no...they demand for me to change, and I want nothing to do with those who demand for me to change. Autism IS an excuse for my behavior, no matter what them nasty Baby Boomers say. I am incapable of having better social skills and that's that. I certainly have the memory capacity to learn, but I do NOT understand the concepts taught when trying to learn new social skills. Maybe I'd understand better if I was being educated on social skills by someone who knows ASL. As long as I'm stuck with someone who doesn't know it, I sure as hell won't understand. |
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Inventor
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 16, 2007
Posts: 2625
Location: New Orleans
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| Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 4:48 am Post subject: |
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I would not bring my motorcycle to a shop to be fixed.
It was built with a system of engineering few know.
Someone new, learning by doing, is going to do some serious damage.
So who could fix humans?
The mind alone is beyond human ability to understand, the Autistic mind more so.
Altering any part of a system is going to affect the whole.
There are drugs that can mask symptoms, that also cause people to cross the street without looking both ways, the drug helps them fit in, and death is only a side effect.
Cure is vauge, Cure Religion! Does this mean everyone being of the one true faith, or getting rid of it?
Both have been tried.
Psychology cures it's self every five years. So do we go with the current fad?
Cure is hype, without any basis. Fund raisers make a living from it, some gets to researchers, but that does not help us.
Tony Attwood should get all the money, for his model is living with Autism. We do, so it is real.
Wrong Planet is the only treatment I have ever had, and it works.
So how is it that Alex Plank has done more than everyone else for us?
Support Wrong Planet!
It is the only thing that directly supports you, and your community. |
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