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Kamex Raven


Joined: Sep 03, 2006 Age: 21 Posts: 102
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Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 1:21 am Post subject: Depressed as a Man |
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No matter how many times I tell myself it is all lies, all negative propaganda, if one is told something enough times by enough people, and there are no people around aside from one's self to contradict these opinions, the opinions slowly become progressively more true in one's mind.
I remember when I still went to our Unitarian Youth group, and we had a sex education con, and it was one our particular church had organized. One idea, which I had contributed significantly to, was to have boxes to drop notes in in each bathroom. These notes were to contain anonymous questions relating to sex and reproduction and were to be answered at the end of the con by a lady who apparently gave sex education classes (I knew this person, and disliked her because I alone felt she was sexist). When it came time to answer the questions, she alternated between questions in the girls' and the guys' boxes. Every question, without exception, asked by the women was, in my mind and the minds of everyone else in the room, a mature, constructive question. By contrast, nearly every male question was something to the effect of "I like boobies. Hehehe!!!". The contrast was so great that by the time we were about a fourth into the questions, people in the room began laughing before the male questions were even read. The lady who was reading and answering the questions had a smile on her face that said "Yep, that's those men. I know I'm right." I was probably the only one that didn't find any of this funny, at least, I didn't notice anyone else. I felt very embarrassed, listening to these, because it made me feel like if the results were this consistant, certainly some of it was affecting me, and that meant I was not smart.
Even worse was when she got to my question, "Which birth control methods involve the destruction of an already fertilized embryo, and which don't". I would never have dared ask such a question if this were not anonymous - anti-abortion, especially to a degree as extreme as mine, is highly frowned upon in the Unitarian Universalist Church. It is seen as disrespectful of a woman's right to do what she chooses with her own body. It is seen as men attempting to force the scary and painful procedure of childbirth on a woman who is not interested in undergoing the experience. I could go into my rebuttals to these statements, but that isn't important here. It isn't even important whether I'm right or wrong in my stance.
What is important is when the question was brought up, there was so much disgust and hate among everyone in the room that the general consensis was that whoever this was, it was someone who was a horrible person who did not properly respect women and did not belong in anything UU-related. She answered the question, but her answer was very half-hearted and bitter sounding. No one seemed to complain about the way she handled it. I don't even remember what the actual content of the answer was, as my mind was elsewhere.
And I looked around the room, and thought of a story I had heard about a crazy person who had believed they were a tiger for over 20 years. We know such a belief is crazy because they are the only one who believes in it. In the same way, was I a bad person for thinking what I did, in spite of the fact that I did not think I was, when everyone felt differently? Was I out of line to ask such a question? Truly, if any of the questions that day written by men had been stupid and immature, mine was the worst, and I was very sorry I ever made it. It was part of the reason I began distancing myself from UUism, because I no longer really felt accepted there.
Of course, it wasn't UUism that was the problem. There have been other things too. I recall one of my teacher's in around 7th grade telling the class how "I don't know why I even bother grading boys' papers. They always fail anyway.". I remember at the time feeling this was not an accurate or appropriate comment. The other day, however, Mom told me how she had read a statistic that showed men do not get as good grades as women do. I am forced to conclude, based on this and other evidence, that I am not intelligent.
So if I am not meant for intelligence, what am I good for? Sex, apparently. I can't seem to get enough of it. Sure, women like sex, but as a man, I apparently really like it. No matter how badly I want to spend my days reading Harry Potter or studying my computer book, pretty much every day, I end up devoting a period of time an activity that is never going to go anywhere, because there will never be anyone who would want to share that time with me, forcing me instead to worship photos of people who are better than me, and knowing that what I am doing is a typical "male" thing, confirming even deeper that they are right about me.
Of course, wanting sex isn't really all that useful to anyone, certainly not to women. I heard about a year ago about the possibility that we might eventually enable lesbian couples to have children, but not the other way around, because a man cannot have a child. This means that eventually, men will no longer be necessary anyway. I remember learning what a baby shower is. For men who do not know, it is apparently a way for women to share celebration in the magical ability they have to produce another human being. Though I would never wish such an experience on myself, I am jealous of this ability, because I do not see an equivelent replacement for it on my end.
Men are ugly and dirty. I remember watching an episode of a sitcom (I cannot remember which), where a man had the privilege of his girlfriend spending all her time at his place completely naked. At the end of the episode, the guy decided he wanted to be naked too, and it was explained that this was not ok, because men look terrible naked. In World of Warcraft, women's breasts are inflated to ridiculous proportions, but men's crotches are flattened. This is because a larger male crotch, or even the presence of one at all, is considered indecent and innapropriate. I do not like playing a character who has been altered in such an extreme way in order to make them acceptable, but then, I don't really like playing a character who's wearing barely anything at all because it is not realistic, so it evens out. In spite of my views, I find myself, in real life, wearing the loosest pants I can find because I find it shameful and embarrassing.
Once, during one of my many times where I confirmed my inferiority, I saw a picture of a girl who had taken a picture of herself naked with a digital camera using a bathroom mirror. There were several comments posted to the picture, some of which were respectful, others degrading, but one thing was consistent, she was getting attention. If I did the same thing, I would not get the same. That is because I am ugly. In the words of a comment by a woman I'm pretty sure was straight I once saw on a message board (can't remember which, might have been here), male privates "look funny". I would like to feel both male and beautiful. I would like to know that were I to do such a thing as what that camera girl did, I would get similar comments from women. No matter how much I fight these feelings, no matter how much I tell everyone how illogical they are and how I am immune to them, they are in me too. If anything, I'm especially susceptable to them because I've never heard of a man wanting similar things.
Anyone who has seen anything I have posted in the past is going to find this to be in great contradiction to anything I have ever posted, including recently. It reveals me as in denial about my own feelings, as a hypocrite, and as a pessemistic, negative person. This is the other side of me I have shown in this post today. I have been hiding it in my sub-concious for years. I once wrote a post similar to this one, but did not post it. Most recently, I was doing a forum search, and could not avoid reading some thread titles in the woman's forum. I am not allowed in there, and I am not allowed to have my own forum because as any board admin who has tried it will tell you, men do not have maturity to discuss serious issues only other males can relate to. I am not allowed in there, so I did not click the titles, but if I am doing a search, I am going to see those titles and there is nothing I can do about it. There was one of them that deeply hurt me, offended me, and made my cry, but that thread title was only a trigger for this post. The post was coming soon anyway, whether I had seen that or not.
I want to stress that I have nothing against women. I find them attractive, intelligent and at least as capable as myself at what I do. I do not blame women for these feelings, and I recognize that not all women are sexist against men. I do not want to give an impression to the contrary, and I deeply apoligize if that is what I have done. I look forward to comments from either gender, agreeing or disagreeing with my post, supporting it or criticizing it.
As a final thought, let me restress that what I've written here is something that comes from deep within my subconsious, and it represents feelings I have of doubt. They are tucked-away, not dominating feelings. I don't want to give the impression that I am normally obsessed over my appearance, merely that there is a part of me that feels that way. One thing I have learned about human logic from prying into my mind as I have today, is that it is perfectly possible to have more than one opinion on something, and that is how I view this. I both consider it important and consider it silly and a waste of time to want to be sexually attractive. I both despise the portrayal of men created by today's society, and support it and agree I am stupid and worthless. I think it is foolish for people to assume they are inherently logical in their feelings. The feelings I typically express are the ones my logic confines me to, but these other feelings that have lost the battle remain, and they have been causing a horrendous depression. I hope I can relieve this and free myself of these inner demons by making this post. Even so, this is the hardest thing I have ever done.
Thanks for reading. |
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ignisfatuus Yellow-bellied Woodpecker


Joined: Feb 06, 2008 Posts: 64
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Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 2:28 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Men are ugly and dirty. I remember watching an episode of a sitcom (I cannot remember which), where a man had the privilege of his girlfriend spending all her time at his place completely naked. At the end of the episode, the guy decided he wanted to be naked too, and it was explained that this was not ok, because men look terrible naked. |
That was Seinfeld, I saw that episode just a few days ago again.
| Quote: | | In World of Warcraft, women's breasts are inflated to ridiculous proportions, but men's crotches are flattened. |
I think they are tailoring it to what a male audience wants to see, particularly a male gamer audience (i.e. oversexed basement dwellers Do guys want to see male avatars with their packages bulging and swaying in the breeze? No, they want to see females running about with floss and postage stamps covering the bare minimum. It's funny you mentioned this, because the topic came up during a raid about David Bowie's rather conspicuous, um, stuff, in Labyrinth.
Anyways, back to the topic at hand. You touch upon but don't quite say it and that is the very touchy subject of reverse discrimination or misandry. I was recently discussing the overwhelming presence of everything feminist in the school system and the person I was talking to compared it to a pendulum. Right now the pendulum has swung radically against males in reaction to centuries of oppression. Eventually, as these movements tend to do, it will move more toward the centre. The question remains, why do we have to be on the receiving end when we were not the one's that perpetrated the perceived injustices?
One of the examples, off the top of my head, has to do with the overdiagnosis of ADHD in young males. Most primary school teachers are female and view the normal rambunctious behaviour of boys as "abnormal". They report the behaviour as disruptive and the child is drugged to fit their expectation of "appropriate" behaviour, when, in fact, the child is exhibiting characteristics normal for his gender.
I don't doubt this will turn into a heated discussion. |
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bicentennialman Butterfly


Joined: Mar 21, 2008 Posts: 16
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Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 2:51 am Post subject: |
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Kamex, I want to thank you for your heartfelt post, because it put into words some things that I have realized have been hurtful to me as well.
There is an incredible amount of negative junk about men out there. Commercials and TV shows whisper that men are stupid, selfish, ugly incompetent-- pretty much always the negative side of any comparison. I don't think it's really done on purpose, but it's very much a part of our culture that can be hurtful.
I remember having a teacher when I was in elementary who went on and on about how girls were so well-behaved compared to boys. I couldn't understand why she didn't like boys. Middle school was a time of awkwardness when sometimes I actually believed that men were stupid and women were better. Sometimes I wished I was a girl.
The only thing I can say is it's not true. It's a lie. You don't have to be the way people describe you. There is nothing wrong with being a man; in fact, the world needs them desperately, equally as much as it needs women.
I wish I could change the messages the world around us gives to us, but your post just let me know that I needed a reminder of the truth. |
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Dracula Sea Gull


Joined: Nov 23, 2007 Posts: 245
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Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 8:46 am Post subject: |
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Be a man by not caring how women might regard the other gender.
- D |
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kclark Deinonychus


Joined: May 11, 2007 Age: 26 Posts: 398 Location: NE Illinois
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Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 10:24 am Post subject: |
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I don't think I have much to say on the whole post, but your question was an awesome one, one that I would like to know the answers to.
I honestly cannot explain how someone could get upset at someone who would ask this question.
The question said nothing about the embryo destroying contraceptives being bad or wrong, but wanting to identify which forms operate which way.
Are they mad at someone looking for a contraceptive that meshes with their moral beliefs?
Why would anyone get upset with this? Unless they used a embryo destroying contraceptive and actually felt uncomfortable now that they knew about it. Wouldn't the answer to this question then give them the ability to make more informed choices about what they do with their bodies?
I feel ire at someone who is supposed to be educating and responds to good question like this so badly.
As to the exaggerating of sex anatomy, take a look at some old European nobility garments. They specifically had pants and gear specifically for the purpose of making their crotch look extremely large. Totally ridiculous looking to us today, but apparently back then it was in the height of fashion. |
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Kamex Raven


Joined: Sep 03, 2006 Age: 21 Posts: 102
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Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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| ignisfatuus wrote: | I think they are tailoring it to what a male audience wants to see, particularly a male gamer audience (i.e. oversexed basement dwellers Do guys want to see male avatars with their packages bulging and swaying in the breeze? No, they want to see females running about with floss and postage stamps covering the bare minimum. It's funny you mentioned this, because the topic came up during a raid about David Bowie's rather conspicuous, um, stuff, in Labyrinth. |
You'd think that it would bother most men to play a male character without any private parts.
| bicentennialman wrote: | The only thing I can say is it's not true. It's a lie. You don't have to be the way people describe you. There is nothing wrong with being a man; in fact, the world needs them desperately, equally as much as it needs women.
I wish I could change the messages the world around us gives to us, but your post just let me know that I needed a reminder of the truth. |
Well thank you. And I think I do agree with you, that it's all lies.
| Dracula wrote: | Be a man by not caring how women might regard the other gender.
- D |
I have no desire, nor ability to act like a stereotypical male. I realize that this hurts my chances even further of ever having a relationship, but I want someone who will love me for who I am, and if that cannot be achieved, I am better off alone.
| kclark wrote: | I don't think I have much to say on the whole post, but your question was an awesome one, one that I would like to know the answers to.
I honestly cannot explain how someone could get upset at someone who would ask this question.
The question said nothing about the embryo destroying contraceptives being bad or wrong, but wanting to identify which forms operate which way.
Are they mad at someone looking for a contraceptive that meshes with their moral beliefs?
Why would anyone get upset with this? Unless they used a embryo destroying contraceptive and actually felt uncomfortable now that they knew about it. Wouldn't the answer to this question then give them the ability to make more informed choices about what they do with their bodies?
I feel ire at someone who is supposed to be educating and responds to good question like this so badly. |
The problem, I think, is that it implies I placed actual value in the life and well-being of a fetus. This is in violation of the UUist belief in the inherent worth and dignity of every person. At least, that's how the feminist Unitarians view it, and they're totally dominating that church, just as feminists in general are dominating everything else. I think it's all done with good intentions - after all, women have been put down and criticized enough for so long through history, but the end result is that they overemphasize their message to the point where the reverse occurs. Women are not taught to avoid sexism like men are. They are never accused of being sexist, and if any men protest, THEY are labeled as sexists for doing so. Society seriously needs this fixed, because it is causing men emotional damage. |
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Aridarr the Homicidal Maniac

Joined: Oct 01, 2005 Age: 20 Posts: 1293 Location: Over the stars...?
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Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 7:22 pm Post subject: |
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I get exactly the same thing from a female perspective. We are treated as inferior and stupid a lot of the time. It's no better to be a woman.
And I've said this before: sexual equality is not about everyone being treated with respect and not stereotyped or insulted, it is about equal job opportunities and rights within society. Everyone, young or old, male or female, black or white, suffers from disrespect at some time or other. And it hurts us all.
Women are the only gender to consistently have suffered true sexism, in being denied the right to vote and treated as second-class citizens (as they still are in many countries.) Being given unequal job opportunities and such (still happens - even in western society).
Being insulted and put down may feel bad, but in reality it is just playground stuff; not true sexual oppression.
It is something that everyone has to put up with. It's just part of being human. _________________ Effect of Blood Plasma from Psychotic Patients upon Performance of Trained Rats |
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Kamex Raven


Joined: Sep 03, 2006 Age: 21 Posts: 102
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Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 12:17 am Post subject: |
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| Aridarr wrote: | | I get exactly the same thing from a female perspective. We are treated as inferior and stupid a lot of the time. It's no better to be a woman. |
I never said that women had it easier. There are some very clear problems on the female side that remain in the civilized world. There has yet to be a female president of the United States, for example, and in my opinion, Hillary has no hope simply because she's a woman. Pay rates are purposefully different in many jobs for no reason at all. Parents discourage their young girls from learning to use computers in the same way blacks were once kept from reading.
| Aridarr wrote: | | And I've said this before: sexual equality is not about everyone being treated with respect and not stereotyped or insulted, it is about equal job opportunities and rights within society. Everyone, young or old, male or female, black or white, suffers from disrespect at some time or other. And it hurts us all. |
I disagree that men don't also face those kinds of problems as well. Most of them stem from the idea that because men have a higher sex drive, that means every single man and zero women would be capable of committing sexually motivated wrongs. For example, if a man is raped by a woman or group of women, no one will believe it happened to the point where no man would dare report a rape on himself. It's also worth noting that I doubt that teacher I had graded papers fairly if she's going to make that sort of comment.
I do think, however, that constant insults from both the media and people in person are indeed a form of bigotry that is worth our attention. They've done studies showing that if you give a black person a test and tell them the test is to show they are as smart as white people, they will do badly, but they will do fine if you don't tell them. Overwhelming negative feelings against a particular group makes people depressed, feel they are worthless, and is not healthy for the person by any means. It's not unreasonable to assume this kind of damage has an effect on someone's quality of life, and for that reason, I think it is a bad thing.
| Aridarr wrote: | | Women are the only gender to consistently have suffered true sexism, in being denied the right to vote and treated as second-class citizens (as they still are in many countries.) Being given unequal job opportunities and such (still happens - even in western society). |
That doesn't mean that what happens to men in western society is ok or acceptable. While trying to make men feel bad, and portraying them as stupid and ugly certainly helps to even things out, it still isn't a very nice thing to do, and it needs to be stopped. I have never felt women should not vote, that they shouldn't be doing certain jobs, or that they should get paid less than men. Why must I be punished for it as though I have?
As far as other countries, what goes on there is indeed wrong, but that's not where the problems I've described against males are occurring.
| Aridarr wrote: | | Being insulted and put down may feel bad, but in reality it is just playground stuff; not true sexual oppression. |
As most aspies on here will tell you, playground stuff is indeed very serious. I still have nightmares about my playground stuff.
| Aridarr wrote: | | It is something that everyone has to put up with. It's just part of being human. |
I think it is on a greater level against men than in most cases. I have not seen many shows these days that portray women or blacks as idiots. Such a thing would be stopped. There is nothing normal or healthy about feeling the way I do. |
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Aridarr the Homicidal Maniac

Joined: Oct 01, 2005 Age: 20 Posts: 1293 Location: Over the stars...?
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Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 5:58 am Post subject: |
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| Kamex wrote: | | I think it is on a greater level against men than in most cases. I have not seen many shows these days that portray women or blacks as idiots. Such a thing would be stopped. There is nothing normal or healthy about feeling the way I do. |
As a woman, I disagree. I have been pushed into terrible depressions over the treatment of women in society (including but not limited to portrayal in the media); I have known black people who feel the same way about their race.
I'm not saying that it is not a terrible thing that you are suffering; just that you are not alone, as a man, in your suffering.
Believe me; if you knew what I have been through over my fury at the maltreatment of women, you would understand. Not that I wish to discredit your own suffering; you are probably going through just as much as I went through, in your own way.
But, like I said; you are not alone. _________________ Effect of Blood Plasma from Psychotic Patients upon Performance of Trained Rats |
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larsenjw92286 Your invitation to come on down!

Joined: Aug 31, 2004 Age: 21 Posts: 8786 Location: Seattle, Washington
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Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 10:09 am Post subject: |
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I hope things improve with you soon! _________________ Jason Larsen
gameshowdude1986@yahoo.com |
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Prof_Pretorius troubled Soul

Joined: Aug 21, 2006 Age: 50 Posts: 4187 Location: Hiding in the attic of the Arkham Library
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Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 11:10 pm Post subject: |
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That was the ugly face of sexism. It's idiomatic, that when one group that was previously persecuted gains power, the first thing they do is start persecuting other groups.
So women, having been suppressed by men, are now attacking men.
If the teacher had been a man, and read ridiculous statements about the girls, he would have been booted !! But a woman can do it to boys. _________________ I wake to sleep, and take my waking slow. I feel my fate in what I cannot fear. I learn by going where I have to go. ~Theodore Roethke |
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silentchaos Sea Gull


Joined: Mar 08, 2008 Posts: 249
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Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 11:45 pm Post subject: |
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It is true that statistics say men make more money on average but statistics also say that women spend more money on average, think about it. Also women have huge advantages in custody battles,assault trials,sexual harassment,etc. Men also have to deal with the fact that if we offend the opposite sex or dare treat them as we would a man or equal we may end up in jail or dead whereas if a woman does it, it is funny. Men also have no say whatsoever over pregnancy and child support, we have no say whatsoever in having the child or not and no say whatsoever in being affected by the other parties decision indefinitely.
I am not saying that men have it worse than women or that i would do any of the above but i do know that many more males die due to sexism than women. I am completely for equality between the sexes but there needs to be some cooperation. I hate to quote a comedian on a serious issue but... That extra money is what we get for going down with the ship and paying the tab on dates. |
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Aridarr the Homicidal Maniac

Joined: Oct 01, 2005 Age: 20 Posts: 1293 Location: Over the stars...?
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Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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In reply to both of the last two messages; I'm at too much of a low ebb to get in to an argument over sexism towards women vs sexism towards men.
But I ask you both to consider the fact that sexism towards females is by no means a thing of the past. Men do suffer sexism; but overall they have fewer difficulties in living independently and free of oppression (in our society and worldwide.)
I'm not arguing: merely stating a fact.
And the last message was riddled with generalizations and did not take into accounts the obvious biological inequalities between the sexes. Or the wishes of the women involved, that under the current conduct in our society go unfulfilled. And the ways that men often take advantage of women and pressure them into situations not to their choosing; like into becoming mothers. _________________ Effect of Blood Plasma from Psychotic Patients upon Performance of Trained Rats |
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CockneyRebel Sid The Love Rat :O)

Joined: Jul 18, 2004 Age: 33 Posts: 19882 Location: Out in the evening, with me two best Rat Mates. :O)
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Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 11:34 am Post subject: |
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I know a lot of men, who are affected by Depression. They struggle with the stigma, because it's still believed that it's supposed to be a women's disorder. The truth is that both men and women can have it, and it can be a struggle for everyone who lives with it. _________________ Sid The Rat is everything that I stand for. We're both large, proud Punkers with Cockney accents. We both have the same issues, as well. I don't see anything wrong, with that. I was put on this planet, to make myself happy. Sid :O) |
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Chibi_Neko Velociraptor


Joined: Oct 24, 2007 Age: 25 Posts: 407 Location: Newfoundland, Canada
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Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 12:58 pm Post subject: |
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I think both genders have these feelings and I can understand the views on both sides.
In men we have the 'I just want sex" and in the women we have the blonde jokes and bimbos that are not smart.
I think cartoons are a good example of media enforcing the whole 'appearence' and 'intelligence' discrimination. Much of the media (Games, TV, ect.) are aimed at men (I guess they think they consume media more then women, which is just weird)
They assume that men want only sexy women, so they make female characters all leggy and big breasted, and always make the male characters smaller and over cartoony looking.
Japanese anime doesn't seem to have this when they draw their charaters, but they have sex material aimed at both genders (Yaoi and Yuri) _________________ Humans are intelligent, but that doesn't make them smart. |
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