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| Are you pro-choice? |
| Yes |
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74% |
[ 120 ] |
| No |
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25% |
[ 42 ] |
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| Total Votes : 162 |
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| Author |
Message |
D1nk0
Phoenix
Joined: Dec 12, 2007
Age: 29
Posts: 1589
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 Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 12:05 pm Post subject: |
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| shopaholic wrote: | We are not talking about about anencephalic babies - that is a specific case and I have already objected to the fact that the pro-choice argument is derived from the specific to the general which is completely back-to-front and logically unsound. (See my very first post on this thread).
However - if the baby was so severely handicapped that it would be completely incapable of independent life, even if carried to term, then all an abortion would do would be to hasten the death of something that was only ever going to die anyway.
How can this specific case be compared to the killing of someone who could otherwise have gone on to live a long and fruitful life, maybe make a great scientific discovery, maybe marry your son or daughter....?
How would its siblings feel to be told that they "should" have had a brother or sister, but that its timing was inconvenient, so mummy decided to kill it? Wouldn't that make them feel pretty insecure? It would me! |
What I was talking about was the first few weeks after conception BEFORE the actual brain is formed and starts up its electrical activity. But Shopaholic you really DO make a compelling argument that abortion is unethical. |
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Chibi_Neko
Phoenix
Joined: Oct 24, 2007
Age: 26
Posts: 979
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 1:19 pm Post subject: |
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I am pro-choice, because it is the woman's personal choice to keep a fetus or not, pro-choice doesn't mean that everyone is going to get abortions, it means to have the choice to keep it.
I don't like anti-choice people, if I where pregnant, I can do what I want with my body, if you where to say "i'd keep it" then that's great! Get pregnant and keep it for yourself.
I get a kick out of the pro-life protesters, if I had a un-wated pregnancy, I would say "seeing as you want me to have the baby so much...here's an idea, you can have it" that will show them how I feel, how can they expect me to have a baby that I don't want if they are not prepared to take it either, it's like they are saying 'it your problem, deal with it', I also find it funny that concern for the fetus ends after it is born, what about the conditions that it may have to live in? Living with a mother that doesn't want it?
a fetus (1-4 months) is not a baby anyway, it's just a blob of flesh that can grow into a baby if left alone. It has no awareness.
I am not a fan of late-term abortion however, getting a abortion on a viable fetus is like killing a person because it can survive in a incubator and get adopted. There is no excuse for late-term abortions anyway... if you don't want it, get the abortion while the fetus isn't a person yet.
These are just my views however.
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Humans are intelligent, but that doesn't make them smart. |
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D1nk0
Phoenix
Joined: Dec 12, 2007
Age: 29
Posts: 1589
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| Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 2:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Chibi_Neko wrote: | I am pro-choice, because it is the woman's personal choice to keep a fetus or not, pro-choice doesn't mean that everyone is going to get abortions, it means to have the choice to keep it.
I don't like anti-choice people, if I where pregnant, I can do what I want with my body, if you where to say "i'd keep it" then that's great! Get pregnant and keep it for yourself.
I get a kick out of the pro-life protesters, if I had a un-wated pregnancy, I would say "seeing as you want me to have the baby so much...here's an idea, you can have it" that will show them how I feel, how can they expect me to have a baby that I don't want if they are not prepared to take it either, it's like they are saying 'it your problem, deal with it', I also find it funny that concern for the fetus ends after it is born, what about the conditions that it may have to live in? Living with a mother that doesn't want it?
a fetus (1-4 months) is not a baby anyway, it's just a blob of flesh that can grow into a baby if left alone. It has no awareness.
I am not a fan of late-term abortion however, getting a abortion on a viable fetus is like killing a person because it can survive in a incubator and get adopted. There is no excuse for late-term abortions anyway... if you don't want it, get the abortion while the fetus isn't a person yet.
These are just my views however. |
Well said! 
*applause* |
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ford_prefects_kid
Deinonychus
Joined: Feb 18, 2008
Age: 22
Posts: 392
Location: CA: Los Angeles and Berkeley
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| Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Chibi_Neko wrote: | a fetus (1-4 months) is not a baby anyway, it's just a blob of flesh that can grow into a baby if left alone. It has no awareness.
I am not a fan of late-term abortion however, getting a abortion on a viable fetus is like killing a person because it can survive in a incubator and get adopted. There is no excuse for late-term abortions anyway... if you don't want it, get the abortion while the fetus isn't a person yet.
These are just my views however. |
Agreed. That's why I mentioned the "anthropomorphization" of the fetus.
I'm actually pro-choice in two-ways- about abortion, and I'm mostly a believer in the alt.suicide.holiday philosophy. But that's a whole different issue- wonder if there have been any debates on that one in these forums. |
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shopaholic
Phoenix
Joined: Aug 01, 2007
Posts: 619
Location: UK
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| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 4:17 am Post subject: |
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Seems to me like having only the two options on this poll: "Pro-choice" or "Pro-life" is pretty misleading - from what most people have said on here they are actually somewhere in between, i.e. pro-choice but only in certain circumstances.
The "Pro-choice" position actually means that any woman anywhere at any time should have the right to have an abortion for whatever reason, no matter how trivial, at any stage of pregnancy right up to birth.
If that is not your position, you should not be describing yourself as "Pro-choice", and there should be an alternative box on the poll for you to tick.
Chiki-neko, there are thousands of infertile women who would give anything to be given these so-called "unwanted" babies.
That is why, instead of abortion, there should be a system, maybe run kind of like an official "dating agency", to match the woman who doesn't want to keep her baby with the people who want to adopt.
The woman SHOULD have the right to choose who adopts her "unwanted" baby! |
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Chibi_Neko
Phoenix
Joined: Oct 24, 2007
Age: 26
Posts: 979
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 11:24 am Post subject: |
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| shopaholic wrote: |
The "Pro-choice" position actually means that any woman anywhere at any time should have the right to have an abortion for whatever reason, no matter how trivial, at any stage of pregnancy right up to birth. |
That is what pro-choice 'is'. It is up to the individual woman to decide if she thinks it's right or wrong to continue with the pregnancy. Sure I am not a fan of late term abortions seeing as it could have been done before the fetus grew, but it's still none of my business. Bottom line is, it is the individual woman's personal decision... no one else, regardless of the cercimstances.
| shopaholic wrote: |
Chiki-neko, there are thousands of infertile women who would give anything to be given these so-called "unwanted" babies.
That is why, instead of abortion, there should be a system, maybe run kind of like an official "dating agency", to match the woman who doesn't want to keep her baby with the people who want to adopt. |
Give anything? Including taking the basic right from someone to do with their own body as they please? In a perfect world all women with a unwanted pregnancy would give their child to someone, but the world is far from perfect. The fact of the matter is when you are pregnant, your body is on the line, no woman should be forced to carry a fetus for 'any' reason is she does not want to, even if it can be given to someone else. A woman who wants a baby cannot force another woman to carry a baby for her unless they come to a agreement and the woman is willing to carry the fetus to term and deliver it.
The movie Juno is a perfect example of this, the lead character was going to get a abortion (A personal choice) but felt guilty and decided to make a agreement to have it, and give it to someone (Also a personal choice).
Whatever she decides, it's her choice, and whatever the cercimstances... like it or not, it's no one elses business.
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Humans are intelligent, but that doesn't make them smart. |
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Anemone
Phoenix
Joined: Mar 18, 2008
Age: 43
Posts: 655
Location: Vancouver, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 11:35 am Post subject: |
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| shopaholic wrote: | | How would its siblings feel to be told that they "should" have had a brother or sister, but that its timing was inconvenient, so mummy decided to kill it? Wouldn't that make them feel pretty insecure? It would me! |
Childre are more likely to grow up emotionally secure if they don't have to share their primary caregiver (Mom) with another under-3 (or 5?) while they are under 3 (or 5?). Burton L. White (in The First Three Years) says age 3. My instincts tell me age 4-5, because of theory of mind. Spacing them further apart makes it easier to meet their very real emotional needs. It's none of the kids' business if Mom has an abortion, though, if they suspect, you can always talk to them about it when they are sophisticated enough to understand attachment (when they are much older).
What I don't get is people talking about pregnancy and child-rearing as if it's mechanical. These are incredibly intimate experiences. Your baby already knows you when it is born, and giving it to someone else to raise can be very stressful for the child (if it is going to be adopted, it needs to happen right away to prevent emotional damage from getting even more attached to mom before losing her). And mom has already been in an incredibly intimate experience with the kid for 9 months. It's not just something you walk away from. For those of you who haven't been pregnant, the hormones are incredible - it's like the baby is drugging you into submission. This is not something you ever force on someone or take away from someone as if it's nothing.
As far as third trimester abortions go, they generally aren't safe, and doctors will normally only perform them if there is a strong reason e.g. the mother's health. |
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D1nk0
Phoenix
Joined: Dec 12, 2007
Age: 29
Posts: 1589
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| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 12:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Anemone wrote: | | shopaholic wrote: | | How would its siblings feel to be told that they "should" have had a brother or sister, but that its timing was inconvenient, so mummy decided to kill it? Wouldn't that make them feel pretty insecure? It would me! |
Childre are more likely to grow up emotionally secure if they don't have to share their primary caregiver (Mom) with another under-3 (or 5?) while they are under 3 (or 5?). Burton L. White (in The First Three Years) says age 3. My instincts tell me age 4-5, because of theory of mind. Spacing them further apart makes it easier to meet their very real emotional needs. It's none of the kids' business if Mom has an abortion, though, if they suspect, you can always talk to them about it when they are sophisticated enough to understand attachment (when they are much older).
What I don't get is people talking about pregnancy and child-rearing as if it's mechanical. These are incredibly intimate experiences. Your baby already knows you when it is born, and giving it to someone else to raise can be very stressful for the child (if it is going to be adopted, it needs to happen right away to prevent emotional damage from getting even more attached to mom before losing her). And mom has already been in an incredibly intimate experience with the kid for 9 months. It's not just something you walk away from. For those of you who haven't been pregnant, the hormones are incredible - it's like the baby is drugging you into submission. This is not something you ever force on someone or take away from someone as if it's nothing.
As far as third trimester abortions go, they generally aren't safe, and doctors will normally only perform them if there is a strong reason e.g. the mother's health. |
I really disagree with the first paragraph. I have a sis whose only 2 years younger and dispite sibling rivalry in childhood I really think its ultimately beneficial to have siblings close in age-when you get older it makes it easier to relate to one another. |
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shopaholic
Phoenix
Joined: Aug 01, 2007
Posts: 619
Location: UK
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| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Chibi_Neko"] | shopaholic wrote: |
Including taking the basic right from someone to do with their own body as they please? |
Every time a woman decides to have sex, she is agreeing to accept the risk of becoming pregnant. If she does not want a baby, celibacy is always an option!
The whole point is that it is no longer just "her own body" any more once she is carrying a baby.
And the other very basic point that none of you seem to be grasping is that by making abortion legal, you are reinforcing the idea that it is a "legitimate" choice for someone to make, which leads to the situation where more people are likely to make it. (Not to mention more people "taking risks" because there is a way out if things go wrong.)
I would imagine that a huge number of women who have had abortions in recent years would not have considered doing so if it were illegal. The reason that they did it was because society has given it's permission for this abomination to become part of our culture.
THAT is what is fundamentally wrong with being pro-choice. People can always choose to break any law you care to make, but they will do so knowing that what they are doing is wrong and that they should not be doing it.
Being pro-choice feeds women the LIE that they are not doing anything wrong, when in their heart of hearts most of them know that they really are.
That is why some women have breakdowns etc afterwards, or go on to get pregnant again in a short space of time. |
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Chibi_Neko
Phoenix
Joined: Oct 24, 2007
Age: 26
Posts: 979
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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| shopaholic wrote: |
Every time a woman decides to have sex, she is agreeing to accept the risk of becoming pregnant. If she does not want a baby, celibacy is always an option!
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Statisics show (At least the Canadian one) that most women that choose to have a abortion is because either the contraceptives didn't work (pill, condoms, ect.) or rape. Personally I would not want to carry a baby that was a result of a rape. Another statisic shows that the decision to abort is really not easy, if the fetus is in serious developmental trouble (that can effect it's quality of life) or if it endagers the life of the mother. The mother is often torn on what to do.
| shopaholic wrote: |
The whole point is that it is no longer just "her own body" any more once she is carrying a baby.
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That would be the same as saying that if I happen to pick up a parasite, it is no longer my body. The reason it is the woman's body is because she has the awareness and funtionality to make decisions and take action. In the 1-2 months the fetus dosn't even have brain activity.
| shopaholic wrote: |
And the other very basic point that none of you seem to be grasping is that by making abortion legal, you are reinforcing the idea that it is a "legitimate" choice for someone to make, which leads to the situation where more people are likely to make it.
I would imagine that a huge number of women who have had abortions in recent years would not have considered doing so if it were illegal. The reason that they did it was because society has given it's permission for this abomination to become part of our culture.
THAT is what is fundamentally wrong with being pro-choice. People can always choose to break any law you care to make, but they will do so knowing that what they are doing is wrong and that they should not be doing it.
Being pro-choice feeds women the LIE that they are not doing anything wrong, when in their heart of hearts most of them know that they really are.
That is why some women have breakdowns etc afterwards, or go on to get pregnant again in a short space of time. |
I think it is a legitimate choice for one to make, same as it is for someone to start smoking, it's bad for you, but you can't tell them what to do.
The fact of the matter is that there are more births then there are abortions, recent events in Alberta has shown that haveing unwanted babies is not a good thing, last winter 2 babies where abandond right after birth (Sick I know.... you'd think they'd bring them to a hospital) the women that had them where not in the right mind.
The Canadian government made abortion legal because they recognized that forcing women to contiune a pregnancy against their will is violating the charter of rights and freedoms, they understand the fact that some women are going to get a abortion anyway, but many will die because the procedure is unsafe. Legal or not, abortions have going on for 1000s of years.
It all boils down to the fact that the conern for the fetus ends after it is born, which is really sad because who knows what happens to children that are unwated, some young mothers abandon them because they are in shame and do not want anyone to know about it. It would be nice if they where all adopted, but there is no such thing as a pefect case everytime.
Still an individual choice, no one elses.
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Humans are intelligent, but that doesn't make them smart. |
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shopaholic
Phoenix
Joined: Aug 01, 2007
Posts: 619
Location: UK
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| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Chibi_Neko wrote: | | Statisics show (At least the Canadian one) that most women that choose to have a abortion is because the contraceptives didn't work. |
Agreed. When I said "risk", I was including the risk of contraceptive failure. There is no such thing as 100% safe sex.
This has already been discussed above - but it is not the pro-lifer who is condeming the woman to this, it is the rapist. This is why rape is such an evil & despicable crime. The punishment for rape should reflect the totality of the crime including the possibility of making the woman pregnant, whether this actually occurs or not.
| Chibi_Neko wrote: | | Personally I would not want to carry a baby that was a result of a rape. |
Personally I would not be able to kill it, however it was conceived. I do not know how I would feel about it once it was born - I suspect that when it came to it, I would be too much of a control freak to be able to give it away to someone else, but without being in the situation, I really don't know.
| Chibi_Neko wrote: | | Another statisic shows that the decision to abort is really not easy. The mother is often torn on what to do. |
Again agreed. This is because the woman instinctively knows that abortion is wrong, however "rational" and "sensible" it may appear in the situation in which she finds herself. If abortion was illegal, the situation might actually be easier for her to cope with, in that the requirement to make a decision, and the burden of responsibility that goes with it, is completely removed.
The problem then becomes one of dealing practically with her altered circumstances, as opposed to agonising over "What is the right decision?", and maybe regretting it later. There would also be less pressure from other parties.
| Chibi_Neko wrote: | | [That would be the same as saying that if I happen to pick up a parasite, it is no longer my body. The reason it is the woman's body is because she has the awareness and funtionality to make decisions and take action. In the 1-2 months the fetus dosn't even have brain activity.. |
Oh no, not this again! Her "choice about what to do with her own body" should be exercised at the moment of having sex. After that, the die is cast and nature should be allowed to take its course.
And as I pointed out in my last post, she would still have the "choice" of breaking the law, even if abortion was illegal. The point is that the law should protect the unborn child because it is unable to protect itself. The law is there to uphold right & moral behaviour, and should not sink to the level of "If you can't stop it, make it easier!"
It is the same wrong-headedness as handing out condoms to underage schoolkids instead of teaching them to wait until they are older. (I don't know what happens in other countries, but this is how low the UK has sunk!)
| Chibi_Neko wrote: | | I think it is a legitimate choice for one to make, same as it is for someone to start smoking, it's bad for you, but you can't tell them what to do. |
Bad for you - and fatal for the baby, who doesn't get a chance to express its opinion!!!!!
| Chibi_Neko wrote: | | The Canadian government made abortion legal because they recognized that forcing women to contiune a pregnancy against their will is violating the charter of rights and freedoms |
This is exactly the kind of politically correct claptrap I thought Aspies were too intelligent to be taken in by! It is propaganda, spouted by people who are pushing their own political agenda.
Please remember that until a few decades ago, abortion was illegal and my views would have been completely in line with public opinion. I really can't understand how they have managed to spead their poison so effectively!!!!!!
Finally, sorry if this offends anyone, but a woman who goes to a back-street abortionist knows the risks, and is wholly responsible for the consequences. Instead of campaigning for safer abortion, society should be doing more to support vulnerable women through their pregnancies and, later on, with parenting.
This is a whole separate issue, but there is an "underclass" in the UK who appear to have no idea of how to be a parent. (And incidentally, they are the ones who are least likely to have an abortion - they would much rather collect the child benefit!!!)
Because after this evening I will have no internet access for a number of days, this will be my final post on this thread. I have put forward my pro-life case, and others have put forward the pro-choice argument.
It is now up to whoever subsequently reads the thread to make up their own mind from all the points made. |
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Chibi_Neko
Phoenix
Joined: Oct 24, 2007
Age: 26
Posts: 979
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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| shopaholic wrote: |
Agreed. When I said "risk", I was including the risk of contraceptive failure. There is no such thing as 100% safe sex.
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I consider sex as a natural act, it is also natural for some people to not want children, but want the fun of sex... people are going to do it anyway, there really is no point is telling them to stop. If abortion was going to be banned, then sex would have to be banned as well, and something like that is just impossible to enforce. The same can be said for give kids who have reached purbity access to condoms and the pill, kids are curious at that age and rather then letting them find things out the hard way, its best to give them education and to be safe, not just to prevent unwated pregnancy that would prevent a abortion, but STDs as well.
| shopaholic wrote: |
But it is not the pro-lifer who is condeming the woman to this, it is the rapist. This is why rape is such an evil & despicable crime. The punishment for rape should reflect the totality of the crime including the possibility of making the woman pregnant, whether this actually occurs or not.
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It is not the rapist that has to change their lifestyle and go through the labor and possible (though rare) health issues. I agree that the rapist must be punished. The rapist got the woman pregnant against her will, I really don't see why she should carry the fetus is she dosn't want to.
| shopaholic wrote: |
Personally I would not be able to kill it, however it was conceived.
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And that's fine, that would be the choice to keep it, that would be pro-choice.
| shopaholic wrote: |
Again agreed. This is because the woman instinctively knows that abortion is wrong, however "rational" and "sensible" it may appear in the situation in which she finds herself. If abortion was illegal, the situation might actually be easier for her to cope with, in that the requirement to make a decision, and the burden of responsibility that goes with it, is completely removed. |
You really need to understand that no 2 women are alike, if she was trying to have a baby only to find that the fetus was in great truouble, of course she would feel heart broken. If she did took contraceptives, got raped, and pregnant against her will, she may not feel the same.
| shopaholic wrote: |
The point is that the law should protect the unborn child because it is unable to protect itself. . |
Scientifically a blob of cells with no brain function isn't a person, it can only become one if it is allowed to grow, kinda like a blueprint, it's not a building yet.
| shopaholic wrote: |
Please remember that until a few decades ago, abortion was illegal and my views would have been completely in line with public opinion. I really can't understand how they have managed to spead their poison so effectively!!!!!!
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Some women's rights groups took part in making abortion legal because pregnancy is a woman's issue. These laws where made by a governement made up of men (women couldn't even vote during this time) also it was religious groups that were against abortion (which to me doesn't count because there is more then 1 religion in this world)
| shopaholic wrote: |
Finally, sorry if this offends anyone, but a woman who goes to a back-street abortionist knows the risks, and is wholly responsible for the consequences. Instead of campaigning for safer abortion, society should be doing more to support vulnerable women through their pregnancies and, later on, with parenting.
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Desperate people do desperate things, a sad truth. Depending on the consequences that the woman got pregnant, support may be very hard to give to someone who 'really' doesn't want children. Telling a woman to 'have the baby that was given to you against your will, love it and raise it' just isn't realistic. Support can work on some and not on others, if the woman really dosn't want to bare a child dispite adoption options, what can you really do?
Because people are unpredictable, who knows what they will do if they don't have access to abortion? Some methods will effect the fetus in a way that if it still survives, it could have a very low quality of life.
| shopaholic wrote: |
This is a whole separate issue, but there is an "underclass" in the UK who appear to have no idea of how to be a parent. (And incidentally, they are the ones who are least likely to have an abortion - they would much rather collect the child benefit!!!)
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*Whew* Separate issue indeed, I know some people that really should not be parents! It's not that they didn't want kids, they are just no good with them.
Belive me shopaholic there is no offence taken by me, you are just defending your stance like I am. That's what debate is for right? 
Our little crossover is probably entertaining people who have a neutral stance on this topic.
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Humans are intelligent, but that doesn't make them smart. |
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D1nk0
Phoenix
Joined: Dec 12, 2007
Age: 29
Posts: 1589
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| Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Shopaholic wrote: | | It is the same wrong-headedness as handing out condoms to underage schoolkids instead of teaching them to wait until they are older. (I don't know what happens in other countries, but this is how low the UK has sunk!) |
So are you saying that you against both abortion and birth control?? I have very little patience for people who oppose birth control because UNLIKE abortion it is NOT the question of extinguishing a living embryo. Opposing birth control shows a lack of respect for Other peoples privacy and individual freedom and there really are no ethnical issues other than some peoples superstitious religious beliefs! The desire for sex is MUCH stronger than the desire to "be good" and "do whats right".
The possibility of pregnancy Does Not Deter underaged teens from sexually experimenting! Its just MUCH better for them to use condoms and make the risk of pregnancy and venereal infection as LOW as possible. I also suspect that americans who are not prohibited by their religion from using birth control have a covertly racist agenda by seeking to curtail it: More White Babies  . |
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VioletClementine
Snowy Owl
Joined: Mar 24, 2008
Age: 20
Posts: 127
Location: New England, USA
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| Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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I'd consider myself both pro-life and pro-choice (though I voted for pro-choice in the poll).
My theory is that while I feel abortion is morally wrong and I don't support people who get the procedure, I would never try and convince people to stand against it. I'm passively liberal on this. I would never get one myself, but I won't patronize people who do get them.
I used to be heavily pro-life until I had a pregnancy scare back in December (I started getting symptoms of what I thought was morning sickness; it turned out to be a virus from ingesting a fair amount of seawater at Daytona Beach a while earlier.) That experience really made me wake up and realize the consequences of sex--I mean, what would I have done if I had gotten pregnant?!
It's your body...and your decision. |
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sands
Toucan
Joined: Dec 03, 2007
Age: 41
Posts: 270
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| Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 3:06 am Post subject: |
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pro life
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