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Fuzzy
Ack! Thbbbt!
Joined: Mar 31, 2006
Posts: 1907
Location: Alberta Canada
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 Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 10:45 pm Post subject: |
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| twoshots wrote: | This is true. I'm just pointing out that the only genetic evidence so far collected is not supportive.
Although frankly if there were ever interbreeding I'd doubt it would be with Neanderthal women. Can you imagine  |
Hubba Hubba. |
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MartyMoose
Phoenix
Joined: Apr 01, 2008
Age: 20
Posts: 650
Location: Chicago
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 1:37 am Post subject: Re: The Neanderthal theory, your thoughts? |
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| BenJ wrote: |
By the way I find the face at the start of the article to be scary. The eyes are very disconcerting. Although this states that many aspies would find it to be attractive. |
The first time I saw it I thought it was strange yet slightly mesmerizing. |
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MartyMoose
Phoenix
Joined: Apr 01, 2008
Age: 20
Posts: 650
Location: Chicago
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 1:48 am Post subject: |
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| Fuzzy wrote: | | twoshots wrote: | This is true. I'm just pointing out that the only genetic evidence so far collected is not supportive.
Although frankly if there were ever interbreeding I'd doubt it would be with Neanderthal women. Can you imagine |
Hubba Hubba. |
Read this
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/5103/wildman/ZANA1.html |
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Ahaseurus2000
Velociraptor
Joined: Sep 22, 2007
Age: 29
Posts: 406
Location: Taupo, New Zealand
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 2:05 am Post subject: |
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| hyperbolic wrote: | | Quote: | | "Many autistics are afraid of the sound of a motor-bike. A motor-bike sounds similar to a bear. It is possible that the instintive reaction of autistics when they hear the sound of a motor-bike triggers an ancient fear for cave-bears. " |
I hate the sound of a motor-bike in real life. (Not from my PSP though.) |
I don't mind the sound of a motor-bike, but not for extended periods of time.
But often at home when I hear the "thump-thump" of someone playing loud-bass music in the neighbourhood, I hate that sound.
...Maybe a redundant survival mechanism for avoiding Woolly-Mammoth attacks !? 
_________________
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Ahaseurus2000
Velociraptor
Joined: Sep 22, 2007
Age: 29
Posts: 406
Location: Taupo, New Zealand
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 2:16 am Post subject: |
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On the claim that Neanderthals were stupid:
Neanderthals were intelligent enough to create tools and clothing, could hunt and bring down larger animals including the Woolly-Mammoth, buried their dead, had a sense of "tribe" or "community", could communicate using spoken sounds and gestures, and would look after the sick, elderly and injured.
Remains of Homo Neanderthal / Homo Sapien Hybrids have been found in Europe, so interbreeding did take place. If fertile offspring were produced...
It would be more likely if Humans and Neanderthals have the same number of chromosomes (23) and share more genes / DNA sequences in identical locations, plus alleles, etc. I.E. the more in common genetically, the less likely Hybrid offspring would be sterile.
_________________
Subsim Forums, Silent Hunter III:
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rdos
Phoenix
Joined: Jul 07, 2005
Age: 47
Posts: 726
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 2:18 am Post subject: |
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| srriv345 wrote: | 1. How can "aspies" be a sub-species when it's not strictly inheritable?
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Because diagnostic criteria is based on problems and symptoms and not neurology. These symptoms can (and do) have different causes which means that not everybody that get diagnoses actually has the typical autistic genes.
| srriv345 wrote: | i.e. It is possible for someone to have it when their parents don't.
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Many parents are not diagnosed but still "have it". Not being diagnosed does not mean you are NT.
| srriv345 wrote: | I don't doubt the strong genetic factor, but I do not believe it's the only cause. Are non-AS parents of AS kids part of the sub-species? It seems absurd.
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You cannot technically talk about a pure subspecies but rather a gradient from Aspie to NT. Although it is interesting to note from Aspie-quiz that the gradient doesn't seem to be a sliding bell-curve, but the superimposition of two different bell-curves for Aspie and NT.
| srriv345 wrote: | 2. Why are we relying on IQ as an absolutely reliable scale of measurement when numerous scientists have acknowledges flaws and biases? (Like nominalist says, so-called "racial discrepancies" disappear when a lot of these issues are controlled, like socio-economic status.)
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I don't at least. Note that in the spider diagram in Aspie-quiz "IQ" (talent) is on both sides. The current IQ tests are constructed in such a way that they measure both sides and because many blacks lack the Aspie-side, their averages are lower. That doesn't mean they are dumber, it just means that the IQ test is flawed. Of course, IQ tests won't be any less flawed if you remove their loadings on the Aspie-side. What will happen is that the racial gap will become narrower while many more Aspies will be considered mentally retarded.
| srriv345 wrote: | 3. Many autism researchers think IQ is a poor measurement for many autistic people. How do all autistic people fit into this theory, not just those who perform well on IQ tests?
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See above. There is a connection between a smaller racial gap and lower IQ scores in the autistic population. This cannot be solved with a single IQ-test averaging both types of intelligence while also being fair between blacks and whites and NT and Aspies.
| srriv345 wrote: | 4. This theory's creator is now claiming that this theory doesn't support white supremacy because of responses on a white supremacist message board. Does that mean one of this theory's proponents actually went to such a message board? (!)
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I've seen it posted there (through web-statistics) and I made them aware that the IQ differences where because of autistic genes and not white supremacy. They didn't exactly like that. |
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rdos
Phoenix
Joined: Jul 07, 2005
Age: 47
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Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 2:26 am Post subject: |
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| nominalist wrote: | | I am not suggesting that the proposition promotes racism. My point is that it could be used by racists, much was the book The Bell Curve, to promote or justify racism. I was personally on an academic panel which found more holes in that book than in a pound of Swiss cheese. |
I don't think it can. Not if there are a few people pointing out that the "IQ gap" is there because of autistic genes. White supremacists won't suddenly start celebrating autism because most of these guys are NTs. The Bell Curve is an entirely different matter as it says nothing about the background. |
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rdos
Phoenix
Joined: Jul 07, 2005
Age: 47
Posts: 726
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 2:31 am Post subject: |
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| Fuzzy wrote: | | The problem with this statement is that mtDNA is passed solely from mother to child. Its certainly possible that (but might be proven false) that a male neanderthal could pass his nuclear DNA into Hss and it would not show in these mtDNA tests. Again, mtDNA is not combined and passed to a child. It comes straight as it is from the mother. The only differences will be from mutation. The father does not contribute his mtDNA to his children. |
Not only that, but mitochondrial disorders are thought to be connected to ASDs. This shows that mtDNA is not arbitrary and that there are co-evolution between mtDNA and nuclear DNA. It is easy to understand what this means in terms of phylogeny based on mtDNA. Phylogenies aren't reliable if there is selection on certain types. The higher occurence of mitochondrial disorders in ASDs can be caused by the loss of Hn mtDNA. |
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MartyMoose
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Joined: Apr 01, 2008
Age: 20
Posts: 650
Location: Chicago
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Ahaseurus2000 wrote: | | hyperbolic wrote: | | Quote: | | "Many autistics are afraid of the sound of a motor-bike. A motor-bike sounds similar to a bear. It is possible that the instintive reaction of autistics when they hear the sound of a motor-bike triggers an ancient fear for cave-bears. " |
I hate the sound of a motor-bike in real life. (Not from my PSP though.) |
I don't mind the sound of a motor-bike, but not for extended periods of time.
But often at home when I hear the "thump-thump" of someone playing loud-bass music in the neighbourhood, I hate that sound.
...Maybe a redundant survival mechanism for avoiding Woolly-Mammoth attacks !? |
I really hate Ambulances |
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twoshots
A sun that never sets
Joined: Nov 27, 2007
Posts: 1779
Location: NJ
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Ahaseurus2000 wrote: | On the claim that Neanderthals were stupid:
Neanderthals were intelligent enough to create tools and clothing, could hunt and bring down larger animals including the Woolly-Mammoth, buried their dead, had a sense of "tribe" or "community", could communicate using spoken sounds and gestures, and would look after the sick, elderly and injured. |
Yes. But they were still stupid. The Mousterian tool kit is considered much more primitive than the kind of stuff that is produced by H. sapiens.
| Quote: | | Remains of Homo Neanderthal / Homo Sapien Hybrids have been found in Europe, so interbreeding did take place. If fertile offspring were produced... |
Not clear at all. The issue is not settled, and I have read respectable sources which oppose the idea that interbreeding took place. The so-called hybrids you are talking about are entirely open to interpretation last I checked. |
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thadius
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Joined: Oct 25, 2005
Posts: 59
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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That picture of the Neanderthal child from RDOS' website looks very different from this wax depiction of a Neanderthal man.
In comparison, this looks more close to a modern caucasion child. That's the problem I have with this theory. It seems to be eurocentrically biased. Who knows if the Neaderthals had blond hair, blue eyes and white skin. This theory just assumes it out of bias. The wax figure looks more asian to me.
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twoshots
A sun that never sets
Joined: Nov 27, 2007
Posts: 1779
Location: NJ
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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Europe was the primary homeland of Neanderthals. Hence, They were generally fairly far north, and they lived their for a long time, so most likely they had adapted skin pigmentation to fit. That is, pale skin in their northern ranges, and more olive skin towards their southern ranges like Palestine. Since the extreme paleness of Europeans is characteristic of the fact that they have inhabited such northern extents for a longer time than other northern populations, there is every reason to suppose that Neanderthals who lived in Europe would have been every bit as white as Europeans from similar areas.
It is actually known that Neanderthals had at least red hair. Genes have been recovered which would have coded for red hair much like moderns. There is no evidence as far as I know for any other kind of hair. |
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Fuzzy
Ack! Thbbbt!
Joined: Mar 31, 2006
Posts: 1907
Location: Alberta Canada
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 8:54 pm Post subject: |
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| In Hss blue eyes did not appear until 6-10000 years ago. Hard to say with neanderthal though. |
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rdos
Phoenix
Joined: Jul 07, 2005
Age: 47
Posts: 726
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 2:29 am Post subject: |
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| thadius wrote: | In comparison, this looks more close to a modern caucasion child.
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Regardless, it is based on the skull from the Gibraltar II Neanderthal.
| thadius wrote: | That's the problem I have with this theory. It seems to be eurocentrically biased.
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Of course, the main range of Neanderthals where Europe, even if they probably inhabitated every suitable (colder) zone possible. For instance, they are also in Central Asia, and possibly even in NE Asia. During colder periods they are in Near East and even N Africa while during warmer they were in Scandinavia (Finland). |
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rdos
Phoenix
Joined: Jul 07, 2005
Age: 47
Posts: 726
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 2:34 am Post subject: |
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| twoshots wrote: | Yes. But they were still stupid. The Mousterian tool kit is considered much more primitive than the kind of stuff that is produced by H. sapiens.
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Do you know which tool kit modern humans used up until Cro Magnon? Yes, that is right, an even more primitive one 
Besides, the tool kit should not be evaluated on a scale of primitiveness, but in relation to what they did and how their culture worked. It is also indisputable that Neanderthal had lots of other things that simply do not show up in escavations. Their main use of some tools was to work on wood, this have been shown by analysing micro-patterns. |
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