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Jainaday
Emu Egg
Joined: Jul 09, 2007
Age: 23
Posts: 1215
Location: Utah/nomadic
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 Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 3:46 am Post subject: Post or currently mormon aspies? |
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Wondering who else here is of some sort of Mormon, formerly Mormon, or Mormon related background. . .
It seems in some ways a particularly hard place for an aspie, the Mormon church. . . wondering everyone else's views. .
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IpsoRandomo
Toucan
Joined: Dec 02, 2006
Posts: 294
Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 4:27 am Post subject: Re: Post or currently mormon aspies? |
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| Jainaday wrote: | Wondering who else here is of some sort of Mormon, formerly Mormon, or Mormon related background. . .
It seems in some ways a particularly hard place for an aspie, the Mormon church. . . wondering everyone else's views. . |
It is. I'm the only non-Mormon in my family. I've been an atheist since about the age of 9, despite my parents' efforts.
I remember thinking, all religious groups are equally sure of their mutually incompatible beliefs, but none has any more reason to support their beliefs than any other, so maybe they're all wrong.
Not saying all Mormons are like this, but in general , I find Mormons to be even more dogmatic and easily offended than other religious groups.
It seems to me that religions with more restrictions on thought and social behavior (e.g., Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, fundamentalists) are the ones that make the most atheists.
It would be interesting to see a study done on the religious attitudes of ex-members from these and other religions.
I bet that ex-Mormons and ex-Jehovah's Witnesses have a higher percentage of atheists and agnostics than people who left other religious groups. |
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IpsoRandomo
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| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 4:30 am Post subject: |
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| Just curious, but why do you ask? |
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Jainaday
Emu Egg
Joined: Jul 09, 2007
Age: 23
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Location: Utah/nomadic
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| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 4:57 am Post subject: |
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Discussing things with people who have some background in common can be very useful.
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IpsoRandomo
Toucan
Joined: Dec 02, 2006
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Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 5:44 am Post subject: |
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| Jainaday wrote: | | Discussing things with people who have some background in common can be very useful. |
aH, so what's your background? |
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Zonder
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 23, 2008
Age: 44
Posts: 608
Location: Great Lakes
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| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 5:51 am Post subject: Re: Post or currently mormon aspies? |
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| IpsoRandomo wrote: | | It seems to me that religions with more restrictions on thought and social behavior (e.g., Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, fundamentalists) are the ones that make the most atheists. |
I'm not Mormon but was raised fundamentalist Christian and I've seen a lot of ASD traits in fundamentalist churches. Maybe they produce more atheists and agnostics because there are more aspies in those churches who just don't know they are aspies and are rule bound, have black & white thinking, have difficult interpersonal relationships, are controlling of others . . . .
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IpsoRandomo
Toucan
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Posts: 294
Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 6:01 am Post subject: Re: Post or currently mormon aspies? |
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| Zonder wrote: | | IpsoRandomo wrote: | | It seems to me that religions with more restrictions on thought and social behavior (e.g., Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, fundamentalists) are the ones that make the most atheists. |
I'm not Mormon but was raised fundamentalist Christian and I've seen a lot of ASD traits in fundamentalist churches. Maybe they produce more atheists and agnostics because there are more aspies in those churches who just don't know they are aspies and are rule bound, have black & white thinking, have difficult interpersonal relationships, are controlling of others . . . .
Z |
I think that's only a partial explanation. Most atheists and agnostics are NT, though they may have some autistic traits (e.g., introversion).
Then again, many atheists and agnostics are also politically liberal, who tend to be less rule bound. |
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Jainaday
Emu Egg
Joined: Jul 09, 2007
Age: 23
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Location: Utah/nomadic
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| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 6:19 am Post subject: |
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| IpsoRandomo wrote: | | Jainaday wrote: | | Discussing things with people who have some background in common can be very useful. |
aH, so what's your background? |
I was raised quite isolated in a Mormon family, quite strict in some respects and very liberal in others.
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Zonder
Phoenix
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| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 6:22 am Post subject: Re: Post or currently mormon aspies? |
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| IpsoRandomo wrote: | | Zonder wrote: | | IpsoRandomo wrote: | | It seems to me that religions with more restrictions on thought and social behavior (e.g., Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, fundamentalists) are the ones that make the most atheists. |
I'm not Mormon but was raised fundamentalist Christian and I've seen a lot of ASD traits in fundamentalist churches. Maybe they produce more atheists and agnostics because there are more aspies in those churches who just don't know they are aspies and are rule bound, have black & white thinking, have difficult interpersonal relationships, are controlling of others . . . .
Z |
I think that's only a partial explanation. Most atheists and agnostics are NT, though they may have some autistic traits (e.g., introversion).
Then again, many atheists and agnostics are also politically liberal, who tend to be less rule bound. |
Fundamentalism attracts the extreme rule bound of the human spectrum and anyone who is not as rule bound will be uncomfortable remaining in the group, whether asipie or NT. You're right in saying that many atheists and agnostics tend to be less rule bound and more liberal, sometimes in the extreme. I've know a few of them as well. I see both fundamentalist and atheist as two sides of the same coin - wherever you see polar- or extreme opposite ways of thinking it might indicate the presence of Autism Spectrum Disorder. I'm not saying that everyone has ASD, but black & white thinking is definitely one of the aspie characteristics. |
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IpsoRandomo
Toucan
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Posts: 294
Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 6:27 am Post subject: Re: Post or currently mormon aspies? |
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| Quote: | | see both fundamentalist and atheist as two sides of the same coin |
I think this view hinges on a strawman of the atheist position*. "Atheism" is usually defined as an absence of belief, which would also be its original Greek meaning.
Also, being rule-bound isn't necessarily a bad thing, especially where you are concerned with justifying your beliefs.
The problem is not so much that people are rule bound as it is that they don't tolerate mistakes in others, are not open to questioning, and have little tolerance for nuance (e.g., "black and white").
*Most people think the atheist argument is "there's no evidence for God, therefore God does not exist."
In actuality, atheists generally argue three things:
1) There's no evidence for gods, so theism cannot be justified on epistemic grounds.
2) There is evidence, not proof, against the existence of gods; so while the existence of gods cannot be entirely disproved, it is epistemically unlikely.
3) The existence of a god can in fact be ruled out if defined in such a way as to imply a contradiction (e.g., God is both omnipresent and non-spatial). |
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IpsoRandomo
Toucan
Joined: Dec 02, 2006
Posts: 294
Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 6:40 am Post subject: |
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| Jainaday wrote: | | IpsoRandomo wrote: | | Jainaday wrote: | | Discussing things with people who have some background in common can be very useful. |
aH, so what's your background? |
I was raised quite isolated in a Mormon family, quite strict in some respects and very liberal in others. |
Mine seems to be somewhat moderate. |
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Jainaday
Emu Egg
Joined: Jul 09, 2007
Age: 23
Posts: 1215
Location: Utah/nomadic
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| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 6:41 am Post subject: |
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Actually, at present the formal definition of Atheism specifically refers to belief in the absence of any God.
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Jainaday
Emu Egg
Joined: Jul 09, 2007
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Location: Utah/nomadic
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| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 6:43 am Post subject: |
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| IpsoRandomo wrote: | | Jainaday wrote: | | IpsoRandomo wrote: | | Jainaday wrote: | | Discussing things with people who have some background in common can be very useful. |
aH, so what's your background? |
I was raised quite isolated in a Mormon family, quite strict in some respects and very liberal in others. |
Mine seems to be somewhat moderate. |
I suppose to be clear-somewhat more politically liberal and sort of "kinder and gentler" minded. . . but conservative in their strictness of observance, which, along with other factors, ended up translating into a great deal of social isolation.
Which kind of moderate do you refer to?
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IpsoRandomo
Toucan
Joined: Dec 02, 2006
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| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 6:45 am Post subject: |
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| Jainaday wrote: | | Actually, at present the formal definition of Atheism specifically refers to belief in the absence of any God. |
Fine, I'm not really concerned with what the formal definition is, just with what people actually think when using labels to classify themselves. |
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Zonder
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 23, 2008
Age: 44
Posts: 608
Location: Great Lakes
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| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 6:50 am Post subject: Re: Post or currently mormon aspies? |
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| IpsoRandomo wrote: | | Quote: | | see both fundamentalist and atheist as two sides of the same coin |
I think this view hinges on a strawman of the atheist position*. "Atheism" is usually defined as an absence of belief, which would also be its original Greek meaning.
Also, being rule-bound isn't necessarily a bad thing, especially where you are concerned with justifying your beliefs.
The problem is not so much that people are rule bound as it is that they don't tolerate mistakes in others, are not open to questioning, and have little tolerance for nuance (e.g., "black and white").
*Most people think the atheist argument is "there's no evidence for God, therefore God does not exist."
In actuality, atheists generally argue three things:
1) There's no evidence for gods, so theism cannot be justified on epistemic grounds.
2) There is evidence, not proof, against the existence of gods; so while the existence of gods cannot be entirely disproved, it is epistemically unlikely.
3) The existence of a god can in fact be ruled out if defined in such a way as to imply a contradiction (e.g., God is both omnipresent and non-spatial). |
I'm not referring to the actual belief in God or unbelief, but in the kind brain wiring and way of thinking that produces the belief. In their more extreme logic and ways of thinking, those I've known who are fundamentalist or are atheist, have some interesting similarities. There are just a lot fewer atheists than fundamentalists in the U.S.
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