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Chibi_Neko
Phoenix
Joined: Oct 24, 2007
Age: 25
Posts: 768
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
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 Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 11:43 am Post subject: |
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| slowmutant wrote: | Meanwhile married couples can try for years and fail to conceive a child. Not even close, and they do everything humanly possible to make a baby.  |
That only means that the couple that are trying are the people who want the baby, the couple who got a abortion did not want one, you can't really expect someone who doesn't want a child to carry one and raise it just because someone else wish they could. I am aware that there are adoption options, but carrying a child requires a life-style changes which depending on the pregnancy can effect schooling or even health. I am not going out to buy a boat because someone else wish they could.
Leah, what you did was right an you have my support. You made a decision about your own body, you did what you could to prevent it, and you proved what I have been saying in the abortion thread... that abortion isn't always a easy choice to make, but you wanted to go to school first... to get a education and a job that will ensure the life you want to have for a child when you prepared to have one.
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LKL
Velociraptor
Joined: Jul 22, 2007
Posts: 490
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| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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Leah, if by 'natural fertility' you mean the rhythm method or one of its ideological offspring, I strongly suggest you look up the failure rates (on a site not belonging to a branch of the Catholic church) before you depend on them.
Last edited by LKL on Fri May 09, 2008 4:33 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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LeahG
Hummingbird
Joined: Apr 29, 2008
Posts: 21
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| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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| LKL wrote: | | Leah, if by 'natural fertility' you mean the rhythm method or one of it's ideological offspring, I strongly suggest you look up the failure rates (on a site not belonging to a branch of the Catholic church) before you depend on them. |
No, I mean helping people who are having trouble conceiving with methods other than IVF - natural medicine, herbal remedies, etc etc. 
I am actually in the process of finding someone who does fertility charting though so I can keep a closer eye on my own cycles using thermo-monitoring (basically measuring your temperature with a very sensitive thermometer every day, as your temperature fluctuates according to where you are in your cycle) so I can avoid that ovulation week when it's most likely you'll fall pregnant - there's apparently only a week or so every month where you can conceive. Most people use it when trying to conceive, but you can also use it in conjunction with other barrier methods to be extra-careful, just as added protection. I'd never use it on its own, but it's still just another thing to help prevent this happening again.
It's a bit more advanced than the rhythm method.  |
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MomofTom
Phoenix
Joined: Aug 06, 2006
Posts: 523
Location: Where normalcy and bad puns collide
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| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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| LeahG wrote: | | LKL wrote: | | Leah, if by 'natural fertility' you mean the rhythm method or one of it's ideological offspring, I strongly suggest you look up the failure rates (on a site not belonging to a branch of the Catholic church) before you depend on them. |
No, I mean helping people who are having trouble conceiving with methods other than IVF - natural medicine, herbal remedies, etc etc.
I am actually in the process of finding someone who does fertility charting though so I can keep a closer eye on my own cycles using thermo-monitoring (basically measuring your temperature with a very sensitive thermometer every day, as your temperature fluctuates according to where you are in your cycle) so I can avoid that ovulation week when it's most likely you'll fall pregnant - there's apparently only a week or so every month where you can conceive. Most people use it when trying to conceive, but you can also use it in conjunction with other barrier methods to be extra-careful, just as added protection. I'd never use it on its own, but it's still just another thing to help prevent this happening again.
It's a bit more advanced than the rhythm method. |
Leah, email or PM me if you wish. My husband and I did NFP/Fertility Awareness for a couple of years. It was actually really neat to find patterns in behavior, food cravings, mood swings, and other body functions.
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tweety_fan
Phoenix
Joined: Oct 03, 2007
Posts: 1038
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| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 11:02 pm Post subject: |
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i went to a catholic school and a catholic group came over to teach us about contreception. anyway they told us the failure rates of methods like condoms and the pill but when it came to the rhythm method all they talked about was the success rate.
as you can imagine when they left everyone was talking about the way they tried to shove it down our throats. even my religious education teacher thought it was stupid.
i heard that the intention of a bill like this was to try and stop violent men from beating their pregnant wives in order to kill the baby as the thought in their brain is "the baby doesn't count i can do what i want to it." |
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LKL
Velociraptor
Joined: Jul 22, 2007
Posts: 490
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| Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 12:19 am Post subject: |
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| Beating one's wife is already illegal, whether she is pregnant or not. |
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slowmutant
Heyyyy!
Joined: Feb 14, 2008
Posts: 3495
Location: The Great White North
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| Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 12:30 pm Post subject: |
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There's a certain garment worn by men who instigate domestic violene. It's a white cotton undershit, sleeveless.
The Wifebeater.
Isn't that horrible? |
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Chibi_Neko
Phoenix
Joined: Oct 24, 2007
Age: 25
Posts: 768
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
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| Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 1:01 pm Post subject: |
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| LKL wrote: | | Beating one's wife is already illegal, whether she is pregnant or not. |
That was one of the pointsthat protesters where tying to make in town....
How is would this law protect women any more? If someone is beating a pregnant woman, I don't think they care about the fetus, let alone the woman that is carrying it.
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slowmutant
Heyyyy!
Joined: Feb 14, 2008
Posts: 3495
Location: The Great White North
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| Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 1:18 pm Post subject: |
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| tweety_fan wrote: | | i went to a catholic school and a catholic group came over to teach us about contreception. anyway they told us the failure rates of methods like condoms and the pill but when it came to the rhythm method all they talked about was the success rate. |
A Catholic group would not trry to sell you on contraception, that's for sure. As we know, the Church is very much anti-contraception. This platform is balanced by the Church's equally negative stance on sexual promiscuity.
But the rhythm method must be more "organic" to be boosted by the Catholic Church. A woman's menstrual rhythms studied here kind of like a a Roulette wheel ... with the couple betting on 10Black in order to conceive. If you can pinpioint the most fertile part of the cycle, that means you can plan around it as well.
Brilliant. |
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LKL
Velociraptor
Joined: Jul 22, 2007
Posts: 490
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| Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 2:55 pm Post subject: |
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| except for the little problem that the week excluded is the week a woman enjoys sex the most. Doesn't affect the man any, though, so it's ok! |
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RainSong
The Argumentive Lunatic
Joined: May 02, 2006
Posts: 4150
Location: Ohio
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 12:07 am Post subject: |
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| Chibi_Neko wrote: | That was one of the pointsthat protesters where tying to make in town....
How is would this law protect women any more? If someone is beating a pregnant woman, I don't think they care about the fetus, let alone the woman that is carrying it. |
I don't think it necessarily needs to protect women; the crime, like y'all have said, is going to happen anyway. However, it can be more justice for families of the victim.
This is the way I've been thinking of it: suppose a pregnant woman (we'll say eight months, so an advanced stage where the baby could possibly survive if found and cared for in time) is murdered, and her unborn child dies as well (whether the child dies from neglect inside the body or a blow from the killer isn't the point). The family was intending to keep the babe, ect, ect. Now, the husband (we'll throw him in there; whether or not the woman is married isn't really that important, but it helps emphasize the point) is without his wife or child-to-be. Ideally, the criminal should be punished for taking both lives.
If he manages to someone get away with a fairly light sentence (manslaughter or some nonsense charge like that), at least he'd get two with this law. Thus, he'd be punished for not just killing one person, but two. It's more justice for the surviving family, I guess.
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LKL
Velociraptor
Joined: Jul 22, 2007
Posts: 490
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 3:58 am Post subject: |
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I can see the point in that, but it's important to realize that a pregnancy does not always = a baby, even when it's wanted. Most miscarriages happen in the first trimester, but later miscarriages happen as well - and babies die during or after birth, too: the placenta comes first, or the cord gets wrapped around the baby's neck, or whatever. It's why Ob-Gyns have some of the highest malpractice insurance rates: everybody wants to find someone to blame when their wanted baby dies during or immediately after birth. The survival rate increases dramatically for every minuite, and then every hour, and then every day that the baby is breathing on its own.
It's terribly sad if a man loses both his wife and his potential child to some murderous nutcase,* but it's not his child, it's his potential child. At 8 months, it's his probable child, but that's still not the same thing.
*this is, of course, setting aside the fact that the father himself is statistically likely to be the murderous nutcase himself. |
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yesplease
Deinonychus
Joined: Dec 29, 2006
Age: 102
Posts: 391
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 10:05 am Post subject: |
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| slowmutant wrote: | A fetus can neither sue nor own property, but it is alive.
If it is alive we should try not to destroy it. |
Sperms be alive too y0! Genocide ftw! |
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slowmutant
Heyyyy!
Joined: Feb 14, 2008
Posts: 3495
Location: The Great White North
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 12:37 pm Post subject: |
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Potential child, probable child ... are these of lesser importance than a post-natal child? The cause & effect relationship linking these stages of life is pretty damned obvious. Potential and probable children are more disposeable then post-natals, are they? Less important somehow? It is not all about the mother.
And yes, sperm-cells are alive. And just as important. |
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LeKiwi
Phoenix
Joined: Nov 27, 2007
Posts: 1956
Location: The murky waters of my mind...
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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*sings* Every sperm is sacred, every sperm is great, if a sperm is wasted God gets quite irate...
Sorry, someone had to say it...
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