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| Total Votes : 67 |
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codarac
Deinonychus
Joined: Oct 29, 2006
Posts: 303
Location: UK
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 Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 6:03 am Post subject: |
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| MissPickwickian wrote: |
1. Internationalists are not nationalists. That's rhetorically impossible. |
I tried to explain in my post that the internationalists use “the Nazis” to discredit nationalism in the minds of the masses. If you can understand that this is what I was saying, then the obvious inference is that I’m fully aware that internationalism and nationalism are different.
| MissPickwickian wrote: |
3. What, in your opinion, do "these people" have to hide? What are you implying here? |
I asked first. Do you think it should be against the law in a free country to re-examine establishment interpretations of history? |
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codarac
Deinonychus
Joined: Oct 29, 2006
Posts: 303
Location: UK
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| Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 6:05 am Post subject: |
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| Odin wrote: | | codarac wrote: | | Odin wrote: | | The rise of the Nazis was the end result of the Romantic Nationalism that started in the early 1800s. |
And the Nazis are now a tool for the demonisation of nationalism by the new power elite in the Western world: the internationalists, who seek to abolish nation states via mass immigration, endless propaganda about “diversity”, and making sure (with support and pressure from Jewish groups) that the Holocaust gets shoved down the throats of schoolchildren, while these same schoolchildren are told next to nothing about the millions who were killed by Communism.
In fact, the Holocaust is so important to the powers-that-be that Holocaust revisionism, which is already a thought-crime in some countries, will soon be a thought-crime throughout the EU.
Why? What do these people have to hide? |
BS. |
Thanks for that short and sweet response.
I might have responded the same way a few years ago.
I know what it’s like to have someone suggesting answers to certain questions when one never really thought there were questions to ask in the first place.
For example, I have seen you in this forum wondering out loud why Muslim immigrants aren’t integrating very well in Europe. But have you ever thought to ask what they are doing in Europe in such large numbers in the first place?
Have you thought to ask why prosperous, developed Western nations – from former colonial powers such as Britain, France and Germany to smaller nations such as Denmark, Ireland and Sweden – have all decided, at the same point in history, to import millions of ethnically and culutrally distant immigrants from the Third World?
Perhaps since you live in America, a genuine nation of immigrants, you think these things that are happening today in the West are simply unavoidable.
They’re not. They’re the results of political decisions, taken by the elites for the benefit of the elites, and taken without the consent of the West's majority populations. |
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Quatermass
Yahtzee's Protege
Joined: Apr 28, 2006
Posts: 16814
Location: Somewhere with a sweet hat and a chip on my shoulder
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| Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 6:36 am Post subject: |
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| codarac wrote: | | MissPickwickian wrote: |
3. What, in your opinion, do "these people" have to hide? What are you implying here? |
I asked first. Do you think it should be against the law in a free country to re-examine establishment interpretations of history? |
No, and your comments about the deaths in Communist states is well-founded. However, your allegations of internationalists being involved in a world-wide conspiracy is reflective of the sort of mindset that created the Nazis and the facists in general (not to mention Soviet and Maoist Communism) in the first place: the need to blame everything on something other than yourself.
Holocaust revisionism and denial in itself is a farcical and dangerous exercise simply because of the documentary evidence involved. The Communists were smarter. They rarely took photos and films of their killings, to my knowledge.
In an earlier post, you said that internationalists were dedicated to destroying nation-states through mass-immigration. What would they hope to acheive? How many people would want to immigrate?
I agree that there are many aspects of the foundation of Israel leave a lot to be desired. But you seem to suggest that there is an active Jewish element involved in 'shoving the Holocaust down the throats of schoolchildren'. Why does this argument have shades of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion?
_________________
At moments when monsters spawn in by rising up from the ground, it turns the action into a gory, protracted session of Whack-A-Mole.
-Yahtzee on Clive Barker's Jericho |
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Odin
Supreme Genius
Joined: Oct 13, 2006
Age: 22
Posts: 1885
Location: Moorhead, Minnesota, USA
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| Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 10:54 am Post subject: |
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| Ragtime wrote: | Ja. Try reading Hegel (if you haven't). Your head will lit'rally spin! 
(I like the way the British say "literally".)
He uses language formally and extremely technically. (Aspie?)
From The Phenomenology of the Mind:
| Quote: |
IN the kinds of certainty hitherto considered, the truth for consciousness is something other than consciousness itself. The conception, however, of this truth vanishes in the course of our experience of it. What the object immediately was in itself — whether mere being in sense-certainty, a concrete thing in perception, or force in the case of understanding — it turns out, in truth, not to be this really; but instead, this inherent nature (Ansich) proves to be a way in which it is for an other. The abstract conception of the object gives way before the actual concrete object, or the first immediate idea is cancelled in the course of experience. Mere certainty vanished in favour of the truth. There has now arisen, however, what was not established in the case of these previous relationships, viz. a certainty which is on a par with its truth, for the certainty is to itself its own object, and consciousness is to itself the truth. Otherness, no doubt, is also found there; consciousness, that is, makes a distinction; but what is distinguished is of such a kind that consciousness, at the same time, holds there is no distinction made. If we call the movement of knowledge conception, and knowledge, qua simple unity or Ego, the object, we see that not only for us [tracing the process], but likewise for knowledge itself, the object corresponds to the conception; or, if we put it in the other form and call conception what the object is in itself, while applying the term object to what the object is qua object or for an other, it is clear that being “in-itself” and being “for an other” are here the same. For the inherent being (Ansich) is consciousness; yet it is still just as much that for which an other (viz. what is “in-itself”) is. And it is for consciousness that the inherent nature (Ansich) of the object, and its “being for an other” are one and the same. Ego is the content of the relation, and itself the process of relating. It is Ego itself which is opposed to an other and, at the same time, reaches out beyond this other, which other is all the same taken to be only itself.
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 Day-am!!! |
I must agree with Schopenhauer that Hegel is unreadable drivel. Total BS obscured by deep-sounding babble. The moron rejected the Law of Non-Contradiction for Christ sakes.
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The_Cinephile
Snowy Owl
Joined: Mar 08, 2008
Age: 19
Posts: 150
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| Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 11:33 pm Post subject: |
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Duh, it was the Jews!
Hahaha just kidding.
Honestly, it's just ignorance in general that causes these sorts of things.
_________________
Two Headed Boy
Catching signals that sound in the dark
We will take off our clothes
And they'll be placing fingers through the notches in your spine
And when all is breaking everything that you could keep inside
Now your eyes ain't moving now. |
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Orwell
Outer Party Member
Joined: Aug 09, 2007
Age: 18
Posts: 3666
Location: Room 101
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| Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 11:45 pm Post subject: |
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| codarac wrote: | | Have you thought to ask why prosperous, developed Western nations – from former colonial powers such as Britain, France and Germany to smaller nations such as Denmark, Ireland and Sweden – have all decided, at the same point in history, to import millions of ethnically and culutrally distant immigrants from the Third World? |
"Importing?" So European nations are actually compelling foreigners to move there, rather than simply permitting it as any free society would? People from the Third World have no motivation to try to move to more prosperous nations? You assume that all patterns of immigration are at the will of the country being immigrated to- not the case, as America's experience clearly showed. Countries which are attractive to live in will get immigrants, whether they want them or not.
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WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH |
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Quatermass
Yahtzee's Protege
Joined: Apr 28, 2006
Posts: 16814
Location: Somewhere with a sweet hat and a chip on my shoulder
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 12:06 am Post subject: |
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| The_Cinephile wrote: | Duh, it was the Jews!
Hahaha just kidding.
Honestly, it's just ignorance in general that causes these sorts of things. |
Ignorance should not be active.
_________________
At moments when monsters spawn in by rising up from the ground, it turns the action into a gory, protracted session of Whack-A-Mole.
-Yahtzee on Clive Barker's Jericho |
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codarac
Deinonychus
Joined: Oct 29, 2006
Posts: 303
Location: UK
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Quatermass wrote: | | codarac wrote: | | MissPickwickian wrote: |
3. What, in your opinion, do "these people" have to hide? What are you implying here? |
I asked first. Do you think it should be against the law in a free country to re-examine establishment interpretations of history? |
No, and your comments about the deaths in Communist states is well-founded. However, your allegations of internationalists being involved in a world-wide conspiracy is reflective of the sort of mindset that created the Nazis and the facists in general (not to mention Soviet and Maoist Communism) in the first place: the need to blame everything on something other than yourself. |
I wouldn’t really call it a conspiracy. I think there is a situation in the West that has developed kind of accidentally where you now have several powerful elements with parallel interests in nation-breaking.
Still, there are several powerful transnational organisations that have developed – and still operate – behind the scenes, and whose members intend to keep it that way, such as the European Union, the Bildebergs and the Council on Foreign Relations.
If I may say so, I think you are helping to illustrate my point. I try to analyse and speak out against the status quo, and you respond by telling me it’s the sort of thinking that “created the Nazis”. Why do these Nazi analogies come so easily to people?
| Quatermass wrote: |
Holocaust revisionism and denial in itself is a farcical and dangerous exercise simply because of the documentary evidence involved. The Communists were smarter. They rarely took photos and films of their killings, to my knowledge. |
Are you implying that the Nazis did take photos and films of their killings – and in particular the gassings?
| Quatermass wrote: |
In an earlier post, you said that internationalists were dedicated to destroying nation-states through mass-immigration. What would they hope to acheive? |
It’s a big question. I cannot offer one definitive answer. As I mentioned above, you have several powerful elements whose interests coincide. I would say the various elites have decided that this process of nation-breaking helps to increase and maintain their own power and influence. Beyond that, big business supports mass immigration and nation-breaking for the sake of cheap labour, free trade and opening up new markets. Ethnic minority activist groups in the West support mass immigration to the West because they are immigrants (or recent descendents of immigrants) themselves (that’s an obvious one). There are Marxists who support mass immigration and nation-breaking because they’ve been indoctrinated with a hatred for their own kind. There are some who support nation-breaking due to the idealistic belief that government by an enlightened transnational elite is the only way to peace. Then there are some who are simply too stupid to understand what they're doing.
| Quatermass wrote: |
How many people would want to immigrate? |
Well, look at how many people have immigrated already, and then consider: there’s a lot more where they came from. |
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codarac
Deinonychus
Joined: Oct 29, 2006
Posts: 303
Location: UK
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Orwell wrote: | | codarac wrote: | | Have you thought to ask why prosperous, developed Western nations – from former colonial powers such as Britain, France and Germany to smaller nations such as Denmark, Ireland and Sweden – have all decided, at the same point in history, to import millions of ethnically and culutrally distant immigrants from the Third World? |
"Importing?" So European nations are actually compelling foreigners to move there, rather than simply permitting it as any free society would? |
I think your idea of a “free society” is very different from mine. In a free society, the members of that society should be able to decide whom they do and whom they do not admit into that society.
The native peoples of Britain, France, Denmark, Sweden etc have never been consulted on this question.
| Orwell wrote: | | People from the Third World have no motivation to try to move to more prosperous nations? |
I didn’t say they have no motivation to do that. Of course they do. But these more prosperous nations have no obligation to let them in
| Orwell wrote: | | Countries which are attractive to live in will get immigrants, whether they want them or not. |
That is not true. Perhaps it is in your interests to repeat such propaganda. I don’t know.
What would your namesake say, I wonder.
Do you think countries like the USA and Britain that can afford to invade Iraq and Afghanistan and occupy them for five years couldn’t keep out immigrants if the political will was there?
Howcome countries like Japan and South Korea are not letting hundreds of thousands of Third Worlders immigrate, but countries like Britain and France are?
How many immigrants do you think prosperous Israel has let in from the not-so-prosperous West Bank? Howcome Saudi Arabia refuses to grant citizenship to Palestinian Arabs, whereas Sweden welcomes them? |
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Orwell
Outer Party Member
Joined: Aug 09, 2007
Age: 18
Posts: 3666
Location: Room 101
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 2:33 pm Post subject: |
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| codarac wrote: | | Orwell wrote: | | codarac wrote: | | Have you thought to ask why prosperous, developed Western nations – from former colonial powers such as Britain, France and Germany to smaller nations such as Denmark, Ireland and Sweden – have all decided, at the same point in history, to import millions of ethnically and culutrally distant immigrants from the Third World? |
"Importing?" So European nations are actually compelling foreigners to move there, rather than simply permitting it as any free society would? |
I think your idea of a “free society” is very different from mine. In a free society, the members of that society should be able to decide whom they do and whom they do not admit into that society. |
Perhaps we do have a different perception of that term. I am American, and I am fine with people of many different cultures living around me. It makes life more interesting. Your definition of free society has some credence. If people don't wish for there to be as much immigration, they can exert political pressure to restrict immigration. I personally think this is a bad idea, since I believe immigrants can be beneficial to a society, but democracy doesn't necessarily produce what's best, it produces what people want.
| codarac wrote: | | The native peoples of Britain, France, Denmark, Sweden etc have never been consulted on this question. |
Those are all representative democracies. If they wanted to restrict immigration, they would.
| codarac wrote: | | Orwell wrote: | | People from the Third World have no motivation to try to move to more prosperous nations? |
I didn’t say they have no motivation to do that. Of course they do. But these more prosperous nations have no obligation to let them in |
Here we can disagree. I'm all for secure borders and cracking down on illegal immigration, but I think legal immigration should be easier. Xenophobia has never really benefited any country.
| codarac wrote: | | Orwell wrote: | | Countries which are attractive to live in will get immigrants, whether they want them or not. |
That is not true. Perhaps it is in your interests to repeat such propaganda. I don’t know.
What would your namesake say, I wonder. |
America has tried repeatedly to restrict immigration, and failed. Remember the Irish immigrants we used to be so upset over? If there is enough will, perhaps immigration could be halted. However, if people want to live here, they will try to find a way to do so. I don't really have any particular stake in immigration; I'm from Ohio and I personally am getting sick of so many Spanish-speakers this far north. I think immigrants should at least learn to adapt somewhat to the society they want to live in. I don't know what you mean by the comment about Orwell. He would have been all for allowing the interaction between different cultures that immigration allows. If you'd read 1984, you would know that he claims the three totalitarian states could not exist if the people in each knew what life was like for people in the other countries, and he laments the lack of interaction between the people of Eurasia, Eastasia, and Oceania as making possible the unending war. Orwell was a democratic socialist; that tends to coincide with internationalist sentiment.
| codarac wrote: | | Howcome countries like Japan and South Korea are not letting hundreds of thousands of Third Worlders immigrate, but countries like Britain and France are? |
Japan is a racist country. There is tremendous public will to prevent anyone from coming over (being an island helps somewhat) and they don't even extend full citizenship rights to legal immigrants. Britain and France are more willing to welcome newcomers to their society. Perhaps you could argue that they should be more selective, or that immigrants should make more effort to assimilate into native culture. I still object to your claim that Europe is "importing" foreigners. Also, there aren't a ton of Marxists around anymore, so including them in some globalist plot seems rather far-fetched.
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WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH |
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Orwell
Outer Party Member
Joined: Aug 09, 2007
Age: 18
Posts: 3666
Location: Room 101
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 2:47 pm Post subject: |
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| codarac wrote: | | The native peoples of Britain, France, Denmark, Sweden etc have never been consulted on this question. |
Incidentally, I am Scottish (Celtic) by descent. My ancestors were the "native peoples" of the British Isles before the Anglo-Saxons (and later the Normans) invaded. My family was later kicked off of that island by the Anglo-Saxons because we weren't the right version of Protestant.
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WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH |
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Quatermass
Yahtzee's Protege
Joined: Apr 28, 2006
Posts: 16814
Location: Somewhere with a sweet hat and a chip on my shoulder
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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| codarac wrote: | | Quatermass wrote: |
Holocaust revisionism and denial in itself is a farcical and dangerous exercise simply because of the documentary evidence involved. The Communists were smarter. They rarely took photos and films of their killings, to my knowledge. |
Are you implying that the Nazis did take photos and films of their killings – and in particular the gassings?
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I'm not just implying it, codorac. Some of the Nazi soldiers took photos or film of what happened. I dunno whether it was for official reasons, for a souvenir, or something to beat off to later. Probably all three.
I dunno whether the gassings themselves were photographed, but I think the aftermath was.
_________________
At moments when monsters spawn in by rising up from the ground, it turns the action into a gory, protracted session of Whack-A-Mole.
-Yahtzee on Clive Barker's Jericho |
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Escuerd
Blue Jay
Joined: May 02, 2008
Age: 24
Posts: 97
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 7:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Odin wrote: |
I must agree with Schopenhauer that Hegel is unreadable drivel. Total BS obscured by deep-sounding babble. The moron rejected the Law of Non-Contradiction for Christ sakes. |
I once had a philosophy professor (trained as a statistician, which an analytical sort has to love) who cited a passage from Hegel as an example of how NOT to write. |
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peebo
Phoenix
Joined: Mar 07, 2006
Posts: 711
Location: aberdeen
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 7:30 pm Post subject: |
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who makes the nazis?
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"The picture is a self-sufficient work of art. It is not connected to anything outside."
kurt schwitters |
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Awesomelyglorious
Destroyer of worlds, reaver of souls
Joined: Dec 18, 2005
Posts: 5708
Location: United States
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 8:10 pm Post subject: |
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| peebo wrote: | | who makes the nazis? |
Women, women gave birth to them, therefore women are responsible, therefore women are evil!!! Makes perfect sense!!  |
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