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| Should they leave? |
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[ 15 ] |
| No |
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16% |
[ 4 ] |
| Not sure |
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20% |
[ 5 ] |
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| Total Votes : 24 |
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oscuria
Verbal Guerrilla
Joined: Feb 01, 2008
Posts: 1929
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 Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 3:05 am Post subject: |
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| Orwell wrote: |
I mentioned that in a previous post. It is thought that America supports Israel unconditionally, while ignoring the rights of Palestinians. By either removing ourselves form an issue that doesn't concern us or seeking to be more balanced in how we treat groups with competing claims to that land, we can reverse some of that hatred. The goal of Zionism was to find a safe haven for Jews. Well, today Europe is safer for Jews than the middle east. Why aren't the Zionists setting up communities in France? Basically, Israel has been forced to become a militaristic state because of the pressures of trying to survive while surrounded by people who want to destroy them. That wasn't the purpose of Zionism, it was to get away from the people who wanted to kill Jews. And yet Israel, the culmination of the Zionist movement, is in the one place in the world where Jews are least welcome. |
No one likes the Jews. Where can they go that they'll get accepted with open arms? North African, Ethiopian, Iranian, South and Central Asian Jews, do you expect any other country accepting them all to form one single entity?? There is a valid reason for the existence of Israel. It is not a matter of safety, it is a matter of feeling at home. That is what Israel has become and symbolizes.
America should support Israel unconditionally. What else would it have? Israel should be an example of a progressive country in the middle east. Instead it has been forced into being perceived as an evil dictator who performs genocidal acts against arabs. I can't imagine a Palestinian nation in what is now Israel. It would be even more disastrous. There are people in both sides who are content with the current situation, the palestinians just have it the hardest. But they force themselves time and time again into that situation.
| MR_BOGAN wrote: |
I can't really comment, I'll have to do some research. I don't think it is wise to listen to what you hear in the media, it is best to research things before you form an opinion.
I really can't see Iran invading Iraq though. Nothing to gain apart from trouble. |
Iraqis care more about their country than any religious ties. It didn't matter that Shi'a fought Shi'a in the Iraq-Iran war, all that mattered was that Iran was attacking Iraqis, thus were enemies. If Iran invaded Iraq, as-Sadr militia would have to break ties or face attacks from its own people I would think. Oh, I forgot to mention that al-sadr is a nationalistic Iraqi, or so I heard. If that is the case, I don't think he'd support an Iranian invasion. |
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ascan
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 23, 2005
Posts: 1583
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 4:27 am Post subject: Re: Should America leave Iraq? |
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| Orwell wrote: | | MR_BOGAN wrote: | | I think America owes it to the Iraqy people to rebuild the country and restore peace after bombing it and creating a power vacuum. If they do leave the country may go into civil war. |
Whether or not we "owe" it to the Iraqi people, rebuilding their country is beyond our capabilities. Our presence continues to provoke more violence, which will not stop until we are gone. |
You Yanks made the mess, you've a responsibility to stay there until it's sorted out. If you go, and wash your hands of it, the different factions will just accelerate the rate at which they're currently killing each other. Morally, that's not really acceptable. However, as morals usually figure fairly low on US priorities, then economically you've an incentive as far as oil supply goes. With current demand and the state of your economy, writing-off oil reserves as large as Iraq's to a future lawless war-stricken pit comparable to some of the current African states, is not something to be taken lightly.
You'll be in Iraq for a long time yet. In fact it's in the interest of most of the rest of the world that you are, I think. Not that you'll get much thanks. |
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oscuria
Verbal Guerrilla
Joined: Feb 01, 2008
Posts: 1929
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 3:37 pm Post subject: Re: Should America leave Iraq? |
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| ascan wrote: | | Orwell wrote: | | MR_BOGAN wrote: | | I think America owes it to the Iraqy people to rebuild the country and restore peace after bombing it and creating a power vacuum. If they do leave the country may go into civil war. |
Whether or not we "owe" it to the Iraqi people, rebuilding their country is beyond our capabilities. Our presence continues to provoke more violence, which will not stop until we are gone. |
You Yanks made the mess, you've a responsibility to stay there until it's sorted out. If you go, and wash your hands of it, the different factions will just accelerate the rate at which they're currently killing each other. Morally, that's not really acceptable. However, as morals usually figure fairly low on US priorities, then economically you've an incentive as far as oil supply goes. With current demand and the state of your economy, writing-off oil reserves as large as Iraq's to a future lawless war-stricken pit comparable to some of the current African states, is not something to be taken lightly.
You'll be in Iraq for a long time yet. In fact it's in the interest of most of the rest of the world that you are, I think. Not that you'll get much thanks. |
Yes, you shouldn't wash your hands like the brits in Basra. |
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Orwell
Outer Party Member
Joined: Aug 09, 2007
Age: 18
Posts: 3034
Location: Room 101
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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| oscuria wrote: |
No one likes the Jews. Where can they go that they'll get accepted with open arms? North African, Ethiopian, Iranian, South and Central Asian Jews, do you expect any other country accepting them all to form one single entity?? There is a valid reason for the existence of Israel. It is not a matter of safety, it is a matter of feeling at home. That is what Israel has become and symbolizes. |
Aren't Jews welcome in modern European states? They're certainly welcome here in America, and I would support carving out a chunk of land the size of Israel for them if they wanted it. We can give them part of West Texas, or something.
_________________
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH |
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Orwell
Outer Party Member
Joined: Aug 09, 2007
Age: 18
Posts: 3034
Location: Room 101
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 3:45 pm Post subject: Re: Should America leave Iraq? |
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| ascan wrote: | | Orwell wrote: | | MR_BOGAN wrote: | | I think America owes it to the Iraqy people to rebuild the country and restore peace after bombing it and creating a power vacuum. If they do leave the country may go into civil war. |
Whether or not we "owe" it to the Iraqi people, rebuilding their country is beyond our capabilities. Our presence continues to provoke more violence, which will not stop until we are gone. |
You Yanks made the mess, you've a responsibility to stay there until it's sorted out. If you go, and wash your hands of it, the different factions will just accelerate the rate at which they're currently killing each other. Morally, that's not really acceptable. However, as morals usually figure fairly low on US priorities, then economically you've an incentive as far as oil supply goes. With current demand and the state of your economy, writing-off oil reserves as large as Iraq's to a future lawless war-stricken pit comparable to some of the current African states, is not something to be taken lightly.
You'll be in Iraq for a long time yet. In fact it's in the interest of most of the rest of the world that you are, I think. Not that you'll get much thanks. |
No, it's not morally acceptable for us to leave Iraq to its fate. It also isn't morally acceptable for us to occupy Iraq against the will of its inhabitants. Did we have a responsibility to stay in Vietnam until the mess was sorted out? (maybe not, since France started that one) There's no easy way out of this, all of our options look rather bleak at the moment.
_________________
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH |
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oscuria
Verbal Guerrilla
Joined: Feb 01, 2008
Posts: 1929
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Orwell wrote: | | oscuria wrote: |
No one likes the Jews. Where can they go that they'll get accepted with open arms? North African, Ethiopian, Iranian, South and Central Asian Jews, do you expect any other country accepting them all to form one single entity?? There is a valid reason for the existence of Israel. It is not a matter of safety, it is a matter of feeling at home. That is what Israel has become and symbolizes. |
Aren't Jews welcome in modern European states? They're certainly welcome here in America, and I would support carving out a chunk of land the size of Israel for them if they wanted it. We can give them part of West Texas, or something. |
Welcomed? I don't think they would. Remember, there will be arab jews in the mix. I really doubt any another country will accept an "Aliyah".
Anyways, the US has about the same (or more?) Jewish population, but definitely not as diverse as that of Israel. |
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Orwell
Outer Party Member
Joined: Aug 09, 2007
Age: 18
Posts: 3034
Location: Room 101
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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| oscuria wrote: | | Orwell wrote: | | oscuria wrote: |
No one likes the Jews. Where can they go that they'll get accepted with open arms? North African, Ethiopian, Iranian, South and Central Asian Jews, do you expect any other country accepting them all to form one single entity?? There is a valid reason for the existence of Israel. It is not a matter of safety, it is a matter of feeling at home. That is what Israel has become and symbolizes. |
Aren't Jews welcome in modern European states? They're certainly welcome here in America, and I would support carving out a chunk of land the size of Israel for them if they wanted it. We can give them part of West Texas, or something. |
Welcomed? I don't think they would. Remember, there will be arab jews in the mix. I really doubt any another country will accept an "Aliyah".
Anyways, the US has about the same (or more?) Jewish population, but definitely not as diverse as that of Israel. |
America is pretty accepting, aside from a few rednecks. We have Arabs who live here without any trouble. I don't know much about Israel's demographics, but America is pretty diverse. Anyways, if we can deal with millions of Mexicans coming over the border, we can find room for a couple Jews.
_________________
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH |
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oscuria
Verbal Guerrilla
Joined: Feb 01, 2008
Posts: 1929
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Orwell wrote: | | oscuria wrote: | | Orwell wrote: | | oscuria wrote: |
No one likes the Jews. Where can they go that they'll get accepted with open arms? North African, Ethiopian, Iranian, South and Central Asian Jews, do you expect any other country accepting them all to form one single entity?? There is a valid reason for the existence of Israel. It is not a matter of safety, it is a matter of feeling at home. That is what Israel has become and symbolizes. |
Aren't Jews welcome in modern European states? They're certainly welcome here in America, and I would support carving out a chunk of land the size of Israel for them if they wanted it. We can give them part of West Texas, or something. |
Welcomed? I don't think they would. Remember, there will be arab jews in the mix. I really doubt any another country will accept an "Aliyah".
Anyways, the US has about the same (or more?) Jewish population, but definitely not as diverse as that of Israel. |
America is pretty accepting, aside from a few rednecks. We have Arabs who live here without any trouble. I don't know much about Israel's demographics, but America is pretty diverse. Anyways, if we can deal with millions of Mexicans coming over the border, we can find room for a couple Jews. |
lol, not everyone is accepting of mexicans though. There will be Jews who have no work experience or education beyond that which is required to survive. I really doubt that the US will accept millions of Jews to enter their country to flourish. |
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Orwell
Outer Party Member
Joined: Aug 09, 2007
Age: 18
Posts: 3034
Location: Room 101
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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| oscuria wrote: | | lol, not everyone is accepting of mexicans though. There will be Jews who have no work experience or education beyond that which is required to survive. I really doubt that the US will accept millions of Jews to enter their country to flourish. |
It might depend on how many millions of Jews we're talking here. Even so, America has successfully incorporated several large influxes of foreign populations into our own, and the current one (Mexicans) isn't proceeding nearly as violently as previous ones have (Irish). Not everyone is accepting of Mexicans, but most are, especially if the Mexicans learn to speak English. And I don't think there's as much bias against Jews as there is against Mexicans (at least as far as I can tell).
_________________
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH |
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oscuria
Verbal Guerrilla
Joined: Feb 01, 2008
Posts: 1929
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 4:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Orwell wrote: | | oscuria wrote: | | lol, not everyone is accepting of mexicans though. There will be Jews who have no work experience or education beyond that which is required to survive. I really doubt that the US will accept millions of Jews to enter their country to flourish. |
It might depend on how many millions of Jews we're talking here. Even so, America has successfully incorporated several large influxes of foreign populations into our own, and the current one (Mexicans) isn't proceeding nearly as violently as previous ones have (Irish). Not everyone is accepting of Mexicans, but most are, especially if the Mexicans learn to speak English. And I don't think there's as much bias against Jews as there is against Mexicans (at least as far as I can tell). |
Zionist Media, Master to the puppet US?
Plus, not every jew is a secular zionist. You will get your fanatical Jews. |
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Orwell
Outer Party Member
Joined: Aug 09, 2007
Age: 18
Posts: 3034
Location: Room 101
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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| oscuria wrote: | Zionist Media, Master to the puppet US?
Plus, not every jew is a secular zionist. You will get your fanatical Jews. |
I don't know how to respond to the "Zionist Media" comment, since I'm not sure what you're talking about. I doubt the US could be viewed as a puppet of Zionism, though.
So what if we get some fanatical Jews? Nice counterbalance to Christian fundies. We have fanatics of all stripes, we can deal with it.
_________________
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH |
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oscuria
Verbal Guerrilla
Joined: Feb 01, 2008
Posts: 1929
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Orwell wrote: | | oscuria wrote: | Zionist Media, Master to the puppet US?
Plus, not every jew is a secular zionist. You will get your fanatical Jews. |
I don't know how to respond to the "Zionist Media" comment, since I'm not sure what you're talking about. I doubt the US could be viewed as a puppet of Zionism, though.
So what if we get some fanatical Jews? Nice counterbalance to Christian fundies. We have fanatics of all stripes, we can deal with it. |
Um. Fox News, Evangelicals, Zionist Movement? I always hear such things coming from pro-palestinian and anti-israelites. Mainly because of US support for Israel.
Can we deal with Islamic fundamentalists?
Either way, US should not leave Iraq, and if her neighbors cared, they would support Iraq instead of just turning back on Iraq as they do the Palestinians. |
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Orwell
Outer Party Member
Joined: Aug 09, 2007
Age: 18
Posts: 3034
Location: Room 101
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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| oscuria wrote: | | Orwell wrote: | | oscuria wrote: | Zionist Media, Master to the puppet US?
Plus, not every jew is a secular zionist. You will get your fanatical Jews. |
I don't know how to respond to the "Zionist Media" comment, since I'm not sure what you're talking about. I doubt the US could be viewed as a puppet of Zionism, though.
So what if we get some fanatical Jews? Nice counterbalance to Christian fundies. We have fanatics of all stripes, we can deal with it. |
Um. Fox News, Evangelicals, Zionist Movement? I always hear such things coming from pro-palestinian and anti-israelites. Mainly because of US support for Israel.
Can we deal with Islamic fundamentalists?p |
I didn't realize anyone took Fox News seriously (or Evangelicals, for that matter). Sure we can deal with Islamic fundamentalists. We have quite a few of them already, actually.
| oscuria wrote: | | Either way, US should not leave Iraq, and if her neighbors cared, they would support Iraq instead of just turning back on Iraq as they do the Palestinians. |
What is the alternative? We will have to leave someday. The complaints I hear about withdrawing (anarchy, chaos, death) apply whether we leave today, next year, or in a decade. I don't think we can do anything to significantly further our goals there because of the corner we've backed ourselves into, and I don't see the benefit in delaying the end result.
_________________
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH |
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oscuria
Verbal Guerrilla
Joined: Feb 01, 2008
Posts: 1929
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Orwell wrote: | | oscuria wrote: | | Orwell wrote: | | oscuria wrote: | Zionist Media, Master to the puppet US?
Plus, not every jew is a secular zionist. You will get your fanatical Jews. |
I don't know how to respond to the "Zionist Media" comment, since I'm not sure what you're talking about. I doubt the US could be viewed as a puppet of Zionism, though.
So what if we get some fanatical Jews? Nice counterbalance to Christian fundies. We have fanatics of all stripes, we can deal with it. |
Um. Fox News, Evangelicals, Zionist Movement? I always hear such things coming from pro-palestinian and anti-israelites. Mainly because of US support for Israel.
Can we deal with Islamic fundamentalists?p |
I didn't realize anyone took Fox News seriously (or Evangelicals, for that matter). Sure we can deal with Islamic fundamentalists. We have quite a few of them already, actually.
| oscuria wrote: | | Either way, US should not leave Iraq, and if her neighbors cared, they would support Iraq instead of just turning back on Iraq as they do the Palestinians. |
What is the alternative? We will have to leave someday. The complaints I hear about withdrawing (anarchy, chaos, death) apply whether we leave today, next year, or in a decade. I don't think we can do anything to significantly further our goals there because of the corner we've backed ourselves into, and I don't see the benefit in delaying the end result. |
Ha, many do take Fox news seriously, and the evangelicals were pretty strong a couple of years ago. I think people got tired of their mess though, I've not heard much about them lately. Maybe by November they'll resurge.
There can be many ways to calm Iraq, but many nations are not participating. I don't meant that they should send in troops, but to publicly say they are in support of Iraq instead of just standing back and blaming america for everything. I've yet to hear many of the nations publicly go against the terrorists/militants.
The benefit right now is that there aren't that many places the extremists will shelter themselves. We know they've found a place in Iraq, and now that they are there the US has to root them out. If we pull out too soon, what will happen of Iraq? I don't buy into the BS that the libs say. Iraq is a beautiful country, deep inside. I wouldn't want to see it overrun by extremists, especially after the history of Saddam.
Sadly, if it does fall into tyranny, I doubt her neighbors would do anything about it and accept it just like everything else. "It's your fault US." |
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peebo
Phoenix
Joined: Mar 07, 2006
Posts: 710
Location: aberdeen
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 7:52 pm Post subject: |
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as long as i dream of waterloo sunset, i am in paradise.
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