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Orwell
Outer Party Member
Joined: Aug 09, 2007
Age: 18
Posts: 3208
Location: Room 101
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 Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Macbeth wrote: | | The problem with this topic then: Assuming that vaccines DO help prevent disease (which they apparently do) is it right for the government to be forcing the issue and making sure that everyone does not suffer because of the actions of the few.. or is it just another big-brother-do-as-youre-told-eye-in-the-sky-we-control- the-horizontal-and-the-vertical sort of thing? |
I tend to have libertarian biases, but libertarian principles only extend to situations in which you are only harming yourself. If you want to subscribe to quack holistic medicine, I'll call you an idiot, I'll advocate that you go find a real doctor to take care of your health problems, but I won't force you to do so. If you are putting the population at greater risk of suffering disruptive epidemics, then you are refusing to abide by the social contract. If you don't want to be a part of society, don't. But don't get in its way either.
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LeKiwi
Phoenix
Joined: Nov 27, 2007
Posts: 2205
Location: The murky waters of my mind...
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Orwell wrote: | | LeKiwi wrote: | That's easy enough; set up a homeschooling group of enlightened individuals unwilling to sacrifice their children's immune systems for the sake of faulty science from dodgy companies. 
Unless, of course, they're going to do a complete overhaul of the vaccines themselves and take out all the noxious ingredients... in which case (depending on what they're replaced with) I'd reconsider, as I'm sure most others would too. |
You're always questioning the motives of the pharmaceutical companies... what specifically have they done to distort their research findings? If you can't find anything, you're essentially relying on ad hominem. If we're going by that criteria, I can find a reason to distrust just about everyone, not least of all the anti-vax movement.
If the issue, as you claimed in the other thread, is pure profiteering, would you care to share how these companies profit by putting these "toxins" in the vaccines? Wouldn't they make just the same profit otherwise, or even more profit since people like yourself wouldn't be frightened away from the vaccines? |
As I said in the other thread, Merck (one of the main manufacturers) were recently caught in a large-scale fraud where they basically took their in-house writers, put them in universities posing as independent scientists, and then had them verify their own company research so as to make it look better and lend credibility to their own (skewed) findings.
They also lied about research on their Vioxx drug which led to the deaths of over 50,000 Americans alone, which has in turn led to enough lawsuits to effectively sink them, which is why the more cynical of us are more suspicious over the push of their new Gardasil vaccine - the most expensive ever created - and the way it's being marketed to boys yet aimed at a virus that causes a female-only disease...
Then there was the incident in Virginia where they were caught dumping their toxic vaccine waste into public waterways and water treatment plants...
It wouldn't make sense for them to make the vaccines safer, would it? Financially speaking. They've managed to convince enough people they're safe and they get trillions from them, so what would be the point - from their point of view - of changing the 'recipe'? They don't care about health, they care about profits, and so long as they're coming in there's not a lot of incentive for them to come up with something better without the toxins. If they did, then yeah I probably would vaccinate - again, I haven't got any problems with them in theory. It's just the way that theory has been put into practice that the problems appear.
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LKL
Phoenix
Joined: Jul 22, 2007
Age: 32
Posts: 704
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Willard wrote: | Children who have not received all their vaccinations should not be allowed to start school, a Labour MP has suggested.
In the state where I live, you can't start school unless you've had all your vaccinations. Unless you're an illegal immigrant (which explains our recent leprosy outbreak - no, seriously, I'm not kidding). |
Is there a vaccine for leprosy? |
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LKL
Phoenix
Joined: Jul 22, 2007
Age: 32
Posts: 704
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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vaccines are notoriously low-profit for pharmaceutical companies. Why make a substance that will prevent a disease, when you can make more by selling medicines that only treat the symptoms?
As far as getting the disease even though you've been vaccinated, many vaccines are only effective for certain amounts of time; others require repeated doses before your body is reliably protected. The oral polio vaccine isn't as effective as the injected one, but it's way easier to give out in poor areas; the individual protection isn't as good, but the overall immunity of the population is better because more kids get it.
Tetanus boosters are needed every 10 years to ensure protection.
MMR boosters are given at 10-15 years of age to ensure protection.
Hep B has to be taken in a series of three shots to ensure protection.
Pertussus vaccine dosen't keep you from getting pertussus, but it reduces the severity from 'life-threatening' to 'common cold.'
Varicella vaccine prevents a disease that is a minor inconvenience to most of the kids who get it, but it also prevents shingles, which is a common, itchy, painful re-infection that occurs in adults who had chicken pocks as children.
The new HPV vaccines don't protect against all forms of HPV - just the ones that are most likely to cause cervical cancer.
The fact that vaccines are not perfect is a weak, weak excuse not to get vaccinated. |
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LeKiwi
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Posts: 2205
Location: The murky waters of my mind...
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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Nope, but it's even more reason to not let yourself be poisoned by the nasty ingredients they fill them up with.
Look, do what you like - I know I'm speaking for the minority here - but just don't force that crap on me. Free choice and all that.
As a side note for those of you who DO vaccinate, there was a study that came out late last year showing the immune system remembers things far longer than previously thought. The tetanus vaccine was one that popped up - it was once thought to only last a few years, prompting the 'get a booster every ten years' recommendation, but was found instead to give immunity for decades.
http://www.webmd.com/news/20071107/study-immune-system-has-long-memory
That's the press release about it for those interested.
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We are a fever, we are a fever, we ain't born typical...
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Roxas_XIII
Join the Rebellion
Joined: Jan 09, 2007
Age: 17
Posts: 1313
Location: AREA 11 - Shinjuku Ghetto
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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Oh, we shouldn't KILL the stupid people... just deny them the right to vote so they can't screw with the smart people's affairs.
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YowlingCat
Lick a Cat - Get a Hairball
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Joined: Feb 12, 2007
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LeKiwi
Phoenix
Joined: Nov 27, 2007
Posts: 2205
Location: The murky waters of my mind...
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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I think that's a moot point... I think you trying to force it on me is you not taking my health into consideration.
And that's exactly why it needs to be optional, and remain optional for those countries that still have it that way.
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YowlingCat
Lick a Cat - Get a Hairball
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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| You didn't even bother to read any of it, obviously. |
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LeKiwi
Phoenix
Joined: Nov 27, 2007
Posts: 2205
Location: The murky waters of my mind...
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 7:17 pm Post subject: |
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Nope, was off out the door to pick up my dinner  (Tandoori yum yum). But having a read now...
Very interesting... shame it seems almost to be happening again now.
I think people need to get over the paranoia of 'omgz you dont vaccinate lyk ur gonna give me disEZE!!' and get a bit more realistic view on things.
Ok, so I don't vaccinate. That doesn't mean I leave myself open for infection, or infecting others:
- I build my immune system up on a daily basis through natural means as a preventative measure
- If there was an outbreak of something then my children would be kept home until the danger had passed
- Likewise, if they did catch something they'd be kept isolated as soon as we were aware of the infection (those few days before the symptoms appear happens in kids who are vaccinated AND non-vaccinated if they get it; you can't really bring that into it)
- If there was an extended outbreak I'd consider homeschooling instead for the time being
It comes down to being aware. Ok, so you don't vaccinate. That's ok. So long as you still bear in mind public health and take responsibility for your actions, and understand that a public health risk is still a public health risk no matter who you are or what you do. Don't let paranoia get in the way of common sense.
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We are a fever, we are a fever, we ain't born typical...
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Orwell
Outer Party Member
Joined: Aug 09, 2007
Age: 18
Posts: 3208
Location: Room 101
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 8:33 pm Post subject: |
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OK, you've made some fair points. At least now we have something to go off of. They did remove the mercury from the vaccines a few years back, so pharmaceutical corporations aren't entirely resistant to change. Attempting to keep your immune system in general strong is good, but ineffective against outbreaks such as measles (only using this because it's the easiest example). The quarantine you proposed is only going to work if you know about the outbreak soon enough to keep your children away from it, but I do agree that isolation during illness would be an excellent step to reduce outbreaks. Unfortunately, it's next to impossible to convince most people to do that. Perhaps we could have a system whereby those who choose not to vaccinate agree to be subject to potential quarantine during outbreaks?
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beau99
B.S. Detector
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Joined: Nov 06, 2007
Age: 22
Posts: 1275
Location: A cruel H*llhole called Earth.
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 1:26 am Post subject: |
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| LeKiwi wrote: | Nope, but it's even more reason to not let yourself be poisoned by the nasty ingredients they fill them up with.
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Next time you call vaccines "poison", I will destroy something.
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slowmutant
Templar Knight
Joined: Feb 14, 2008
Posts: 5121
Location: Ontario Canada
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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Vaccines, condoms, seatbelts, what else should we do away with?? Think of something that exists to improve the quality of life, find fault with it, then seek to ruin it for everyone.  |
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slowmutant
Templar Knight
Joined: Feb 14, 2008
Posts: 5121
Location: Ontario Canada
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 4:55 pm Post subject: |
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| During an outbreak, the people who chose not to vaccinate should lecture everyone else on the evils of vaccination live from the ECU while they die slow idiotically arrogant & sanctimonious deaths. All testimony of the sick & dying should be made into a documentary for high schools and other institutions. |
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LeKiwi
Phoenix
Joined: Nov 27, 2007
Posts: 2205
Location: The murky waters of my mind...
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Orwell wrote: | | OK, you've made some fair points. At least now we have something to go off of. They did remove the mercury from the vaccines a few years back, so pharmaceutical corporations aren't entirely resistant to change. Attempting to keep your immune system in general strong is good, but ineffective against outbreaks such as measles (only using this because it's the easiest example). The quarantine you proposed is only going to work if you know about the outbreak soon enough to keep your children away from it, but I do agree that isolation during illness would be an excellent step to reduce outbreaks. Unfortunately, it's next to impossible to convince most people to do that. Perhaps we could have a system whereby those who choose not to vaccinate agree to be subject to potential quarantine during outbreaks? |
I'd agree to that, provided it was some kind of a home quarantine rather than a state imprisonment and provisions were made for things like food supplies to be dropped in somehow. It'd be a lot easier these days anyway with everyone online, businesses can be continued and work done via the internet so logistically it would be feasible. There is always going to be the few days before symptoms show where people can spread the disease around, but that's going to be the case whether you're vaccinated or not - people who are vaccinated can just as easily get the bugs as people who aren't vaccinated, so it's not really going to make much of a difference. You just have to hope it doesn't happen in the first place, I suppose. A strong immune system IS effective against measles; you're far less likely to catch the disease in the first place, and if you do get it then it's less likely to be severe or result in complications.
As for mercury, unfortunately it is still in quite a few of them... not so much the childhood ones, though it is in all the flu ones which they're now pushing for every year from age 2. 
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