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Sand
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 16, 2007
Posts: 2148
Location: Finland
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 Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 12:31 pm Post subject: |
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Quote:
It takes a certain type of person to complain about what they've been given for free.
Like, for instance, kidney stones, cancer, or air pollution? |
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iamnotaparakeet
Alpha Parrot
Joined: Aug 01, 2007
Age: 23
Posts: 11784
Location: Domus Psittacorum
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| Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 12:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Sand wrote: | Quote:
It takes a certain type of person to complain about what they've been given for free.
Like, for instance, kidney stones, cancer, or air pollution? |
And those are caused by...?
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Don't look back, because infinity is waiting. |
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Sand
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 16, 2007
Posts: 2148
Location: Finland
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| Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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A generous no charge dispenser, of course. Certainly no-one humble.
What I am trying to say, of course, is that you should think carefully about what you say. When a neighbor's dog leaves a free donation on your lawn it is not above criticism nor is anything else whether given free or at great expense. |
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iamnotaparakeet
Alpha Parrot
Joined: Aug 01, 2007
Age: 23
Posts: 11784
Location: Domus Psittacorum
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| Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 2:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Sand wrote: | A generous no charge dispenser, of course. Certainly no-one humble.
What I am trying to say, of course, is that you should think carefully about what you say. When a neighbor's dog leaves a free donation on your lawn it is not above criticism nor is anything else whether given free or at great expense. |
So you would actually think that it is God who causes lung cancer, and not smoking? God causes air pollution and not cars? God causes dogs to poop on your yard and not the owner's neglect?
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Sand
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 16, 2007
Posts: 2148
Location: Finland
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| Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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| I wouldn't say that because I doubt there is a god, but if you believe in an all seeing all controlling being you don't have much choice unless you consider Him an idiot -and looking around at the general mess, you might have a point there. |
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iamnotaparakeet
Alpha Parrot
Joined: Aug 01, 2007
Age: 23
Posts: 11784
Location: Domus Psittacorum
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| Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 3:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Sand wrote: | | I wouldn't say that because I doubt there is a god, but if you believe in an all seeing all controlling being you don't have much choice unless you consider Him an idiot -and looking around at the general mess, you might have a point there. |
So, of these four options:
| Quote: |
a. God exists and natural causes
b. God exists and supernatural causes
c. God not exist and natural causes
d. God not exist and supernatural causes
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You would only consider b and c? Not a?
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Don't look back, because infinity is waiting. |
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slowmutant
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 14, 2008
Age: 29
Posts: 8977
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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| God didn't so much create hell as mankind decided to turn away from God. In turning away from God, mankind experience His absence. The absence of God is torture. If this torture becomes eternal, we call it hell. You shouldn't try to argue theology if you have a poor understanding of it. Hell exists as a place of punishment because we cannot escape punishment for our misdeeds *UNLESS* we ask God for forgiveness. If God forgives us, the sin is expunged. If we do not repent, it remains on our permanent record. |
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oscuria
Verbal Guerrilla
Joined: Feb 01, 2008
Posts: 2066
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| Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Sand wrote: | Quote:
It takes a certain type of person to complain about what they've been given for free.
Like, for instance, kidney stones, cancer, or air pollution? |
You should complain for being given ignorance. |
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slowmutant
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 14, 2008
Age: 29
Posts: 8977
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Sand wrote: | | As someone with a realistic concept of how things work I feel no threat of being excluded from either heaven or the big rock candy mountain. |
'
It takes more than a realistic concept of how things work to get into Heaven, Sand. A lot more. Big Rock Candy Mountain? That's hobo heaven. |
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Sand
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 16, 2007
Posts: 2148
Location: Finland
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| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 12:17 am Post subject: |
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For people who consider God so unimaginably superior as to be totally inscrutable it continually strikes me as most peculiar that people find this overwhelming mystery easily penetrated by human reason so as to give answers as to what He is and is not responsible for. You cannot posit a being totally in control and then attribute the natural horrors of everyday life to forces He cannot control. Beyond that, assuming that He can control them but refuses to do so makes me wonder what kind of frightful Thing you hold in such high respect.
Your God, of course, is obviously a piece of childish nonsense and Einstein had it perfectly right in his letter recently put on sale characterizing the concept of God as unfortunately simpleminded. |
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oscuria
Verbal Guerrilla
Joined: Feb 01, 2008
Posts: 2066
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| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 12:43 am Post subject: |
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| Sand wrote: | For people who consider God so unimaginably superior as to be totally inscrutable it continually strikes me as most peculiar that people find this overwhelming mystery easily penetrated by human reason so as to give answers as to what He is and is not responsible for. You cannot posit a being totally in control and then attribute the natural horrors of everyday life to forces He cannot control. Beyond that, assuming that He can control them but refuses to do so makes me wonder what kind of frightful Thing you hold in such high respect.
Your God, of course, is obviously a piece of childish nonsense and Einstein had it perfectly right in his letter recently put on sale characterizing the concept of God as unfortunately simpleminded. |
I'm glad you're on the same level as Einstein. I'm sure he'd be an Egyptian demigod had he existed then. You could have worshiped him, although you might now. |
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Sand
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 16, 2007
Posts: 2148
Location: Finland
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| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 12:51 am Post subject: |
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And you must be extremely happy with yourself so as to dismiss totally Einstein's evaluation of the nature of current religious belief. To be in agreement with Einstein does not imply any intellectual equality although that would be nice. Since you seem to feel you are in agreement with God I wonder how you place yourself.
For those of you who are interested, here is the text of Einstein's letter.
________________________________________
Letter to Eric Gutkind (partial)
Albert Einstein (1954)
Translated from the German by Joan Stambaugh
________________________________________
...
... The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this. These subtilised interpretations are highly manifold according to their nature and have almost nothing to do with the original text. For me the Jewish religion like all other religions is an incarnation of the most childish superstitions. And the Jewish people to whom I gladly belong and with whose mentality I have a deep affinity have no different quality for me than all other people. As far as my experience goes, they are also no better than other human groups, although they are protected from the worst cancers by a lack of power. Otherwise I cannot see anything 'chosen' about them.
In general I find it painful that you claim a privileged position and try to defend it by two walls of pride, an external one as a man and an internal one as a Jew. As a man you claim, so to speak, a dispensation from causality otherwise accepted, as a Jew the priviliege of monotheism. But a limited causality is no longer a causality at all, as our wonderful Spinoza recognized with all incision, probably as the first one. And the animistic interpretations of the religions of nature are in principle not annulled by monopolisation. With such walls we can only attain a certain self-deception, but our moral efforts are not furthered by them. On the contrary.
Now that I have quite openly stated our differences in intellectual convictions it is still clear to me that we are quite close to each other in essential things, ie in our evalutations of human behaviour. What separates us are only intellectual 'props' and `rationalisation' in Freud's language. Therefore I think that we would understand each other quite well if we talked about concrete things.
With friendly thanks and best wishes
Yours, A. Einstein. |
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oscuria
Verbal Guerrilla
Joined: Feb 01, 2008
Posts: 2066
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| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 1:15 am Post subject: |
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Because Einstein is a prophet? He is best known as a scientist, not a theologian. There is nothing "scientific" or "logical" about religion/faith. You either believe or you don't. Quoting from philosophers, scientists, or whomever atheists agree with does not discredit a person's belief. Neither does or should it matter. |
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Sand
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 16, 2007
Posts: 2148
Location: Finland
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| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 1:38 am Post subject: |
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It seems you misquoted me. I never wrote : hkjhkjh. I wonder what you are trying to imply.
Einstein never claimed to be a prophet or a theologian. He spoke as a reasoning intelligent human evaluating what obviously seemed to be to him childish nonsense. On that level I find his letter completely acceptable.
Since you more or less state that reason has nothing to do with your beliefs there is no point whatsoever in my attempt to reason with you since you seem to have abandoned that capability totally. |
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oscuria
Verbal Guerrilla
Joined: Feb 01, 2008
Posts: 2066
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| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 2:19 am Post subject: |
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It was a long post. i didn't feel like quoting it all.
Yes, Einstein never claimed to be a prophet nor a theologian, therefor his opinion on the Eternal Being has no relevance. It is just an opinion. I am not sure what point you have, but there is nothing in Einsteins quote that would drive a believing person into disbelief. There is nothing that can be said to an atheist that will force his conversion either.
If you're looking for "logic" or "science", you have found the wrong place. There is no microscope or test tubes you can employ to find Him. There is nothing objective that you can use to discover Him. It is a matter of belief or disbelief. What reason is there to argue about? |
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