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oscuria
Verbal Guerrilla
Joined: Feb 01, 2008
Posts: 1966
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 Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 11:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Odin wrote: | | Orwell wrote: | | False. The US was founded on Christian principles. |
WRONG, TOTALLY WRONG!!! Most of the founders were Deists and secularists, THAT IS A FACT. |
I thought only a handful were deists? I thought the deists that the atheists love were also part of Christian congregations?
You are acting as if being a Deist doesn't mean you can't build a nation on Christian principles.
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Orwell
Outer Party Member
Joined: Aug 09, 2007
Age: 18
Posts: 3208
Location: Room 101
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 11:35 pm Post subject: |
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| skafather84 wrote: | | okay but to say that it was founded on christian principles isn't being completely honest. the christian influences more reflected the culture of the time than it did the founding fathers or the intent within their writings. |
It certainly is more accurate than claiming secularism from the Founders.
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Orwell
Outer Party Member
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Age: 18
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Location: Room 101
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 11:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Odin wrote: | | Orwell wrote: | | False. The US was founded on Christian principles. |
WRONG, TOTALLY WRONG!!! Most of the founders were Deists and secularists, THAT IS A FACT. |
AND CAPITAL LETTERS MAKE YOUR ARGUMENT MORE CONVINCING!!!
"Most?" Give me numbers then. And "deist" is not the same thing as "secularist." Feel free to respond to the rest of my post, even if you want to reject the first sentence. Somehow I doubt you'll be able to argue against my other points.
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skafather84
Platypus God
Joined: Mar 21, 2006
Age: 23
Posts: 4478
Location: Los Angeles, CA
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 11:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Orwell wrote: | | skafather84 wrote: | | okay but to say that it was founded on christian principles isn't being completely honest. the christian influences more reflected the culture of the time than it did the founding fathers or the intent within their writings. |
It certainly is more accurate than claiming secularism from the Founders. |
I'll let their words speak for them (#'s 2, 3, and 4).
"What havoc has been made of books through every century of the Christian era? Where are fifty gospels condemned as spurious by the bull of Pope Gelasius? Where are forty wagon-loads of Hebrew manuscripts burned in France, by order of another pope, because of suspected heresy? Remember the Index Expurgato-rius, the Inquisition, the stake, the axe, the halter, and the guillotine; and, oh! horrible, the rack! This is as bad, if not worse, than a slow fire. Nor should the Lion's Mouth be forgotten. Have you considered that system of holy lies and pious frauds that has raged and triumphed for 1,500 years." John Adams in a letter to John Taylor, 1814, quoted in In God We Trust and 2000 Years of Disbelief
"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes" Thomas Jefferson in a letter to von Humboldt, 1813
"Every new and successful example, therefore, of a perfect separation between the ecclesiastical and civil matters, is of importance; and I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in showing that religion and Government will both exist in greater purity the less they are mixed together" James Madison in a letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822 |
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Orwell
Outer Party Member
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Age: 18
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 11:57 pm Post subject: |
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| skafather84 wrote: | | I'll let their words speak for them (#'s 2, 3, and 4). |
Misleading at best. John Adams said a lot of things, and tended to be a bit too extremist for most people's tastes. After he served his purpose in getting the American people enraged enough to go to war, he was rightly shoved aside. The Founders considered religion to be an important part of national life, but they didn't want to have the system that England had with the Anglican church. Still, neither you nor Odin has been willing to address the other points I made. And realize, I don't even necessarily disagree with your conclusions about how America should be run today; I just don't want you to rewrite history to claim more traditional support for your positions than exists. I don't want any "donations of Constantine" to be the basis of any reforms we carry out. If we break with the past, let us be honest about it.
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skafather84
Platypus God
Joined: Mar 21, 2006
Age: 23
Posts: 4478
Location: Los Angeles, CA
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| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 12:09 am Post subject: |
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| Orwell wrote: | | skafather84 wrote: | | I'll let their words speak for them (#'s 2, 3, and 4). |
Misleading at best. John Adams said a lot of things, and tended to be a bit too extremist for most people's tastes. After he served his purpose in getting the American people enraged enough to go to war, he was rightly shoved aside. The Founders considered religion to be an important part of national life, but they didn't want to have the system that England had with the Anglican church. Still, neither you nor Odin has been willing to address the other points I made. And realize, I don't even necessarily disagree with your conclusions about how America should be run today; I just don't want you to rewrite history to claim more traditional support for your positions than exists. I don't want any "donations of Constantine" to be the basis of any reforms we carry out. If we break with the past, let us be honest about it. |
their opinion on how religion should help and impact the private citizen had nothing to do with their views on how religion should impact the government and its laws directly. that's more what i was trying to illustrate...that they were secularists with regards to the government...not that they were about abolishing religion or anything like that. |
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Orwell
Outer Party Member
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| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 12:12 am Post subject: |
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| skafather84 wrote: | | their opinion on how religion should help and impact the private citizen had nothing to do with their views on how religion should impact the government and its laws directly. that's more what i was trying to illustrate...that they were secularists with regards to the government...not that they were about abolishing religion or anything like that. |
And yet America only had limited religious toleration until fairly recently. I'll concede the point of the Founders if you'll address the rest of my post rather than just the first sentence.
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skafather84
Platypus God
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Age: 23
Posts: 4478
Location: Los Angeles, CA
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| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 12:12 am Post subject: |
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| Orwell wrote: | | I could point you towards Supreme Court cases affirming the Christian nature of this country (including one that ruled it unlawful to establish a school that didn't include Biblical instruction) if you like. |
was that before or after this ruling:
"The establishment of religion clause of the First Amendment means at least this: neither a state nor the Federal Government can set up a church. Neither can pass laws which aid one religion, aid all religions, or prefer one religion over another. Neither can force nor influence a person to go to or remain away from church against his will or force him to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion."
[Majority opinion Emerson v. Board of Education 330 U.S. 1 (1947)] |
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Orwell
Outer Party Member
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Age: 18
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Location: Room 101
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| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 12:16 am Post subject: |
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| skafather84 wrote: | | Orwell wrote: | | I could point you towards Supreme Court cases affirming the Christian nature of this country (including one that ruled it unlawful to establish a school that didn't include Biblical instruction) if you like. |
was that before or after this ruling:
"The establishment of religion clause of the First Amendment means at least this: neither a state nor the Federal Government can set up a church. Neither can pass laws which aid one religion, aid all religions, or prefer one religion over another. Neither can force nor influence a person to go to or remain away from church against his will or force him to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion."
[Majority opinion Emerson v. Board of Education 330 U.S. 1 (1947)] |
Quite a bit before. In the 1830s I believe. A Frenchman willed his large estate to creating a school which would not permit the entrance of any clergy, and they got around this by having lay preachers in the school. The specifics aren't too important though. I was pointing to the fact that America has not historically had as rigid a seclusion of religion to only within the church as many modern secularists like to claim.
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oscuria
Verbal Guerrilla
Joined: Feb 01, 2008
Posts: 1966
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| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 12:16 am Post subject: |
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| skafather84 wrote: |
was that before or after this ruling:
"The establishment of religion clause of the First Amendment means at least this: neither a state nor the Federal Government can set up a church. Neither can pass laws which aid one religion, aid all religions, or prefer one religion over another. Neither can force nor influence a person to go to or remain away from church against his will or force him to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion."
[Majority opinion Emerson v. Board of Education 330 U.S. 1 (1947)] |
That doesn't mean they can't create laws that are religious or influenced by religion.
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skafather84
Platypus God
Joined: Mar 21, 2006
Age: 23
Posts: 4478
Location: Los Angeles, CA
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| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 12:17 am Post subject: |
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| Orwell wrote: | | skafather84 wrote: | | their opinion on how religion should help and impact the private citizen had nothing to do with their views on how religion should impact the government and its laws directly. that's more what i was trying to illustrate...that they were secularists with regards to the government...not that they were about abolishing religion or anything like that. |
And yet America only had limited religious toleration until fairly recently. I'll concede the point of the Founders if you'll address the rest of my post rather than just the first sentence. |
what? that the country's history has sucked and there's been many MANY crimes against humanity and against liberty and freedom committed by our government? of course!
or did you mean that the country was founded on christian principles? because it wasn't...it was founded on secular principles with the understood idea that religion would be the counterbalance to the secular rule of the government.
however, there hasn't been that kind of counterbalance...ever.
the history is filled with a few thousand different ways in which this country is a christian nation but only the founding principles are the true source of its secular origins. |
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skafather84
Platypus God
Joined: Mar 21, 2006
Age: 23
Posts: 4478
Location: Los Angeles, CA
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| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 12:21 am Post subject: |
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| Orwell wrote: | | skafather84 wrote: | | Orwell wrote: | | I could point you towards Supreme Court cases affirming the Christian nature of this country (including one that ruled it unlawful to establish a school that didn't include Biblical instruction) if you like. |
was that before or after this ruling:
"The establishment of religion clause of the First Amendment means at least this: neither a state nor the Federal Government can set up a church. Neither can pass laws which aid one religion, aid all religions, or prefer one religion over another. Neither can force nor influence a person to go to or remain away from church against his will or force him to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion."
[Majority opinion Emerson v. Board of Education 330 U.S. 1 (1947)] |
Quite a bit before. In the 1830s I believe. A Frenchman willed his large estate to creating a school which would not permit the entrance of any clergy, and they got around this by having lay preachers in the school. The specifics aren't too important though. I was pointing to the fact that America has not historically had as rigid a seclusion of religion to only within the church as many modern secularists like to claim. |
i'm not saying anything more than the original plans for the country were secular and that's what i respect and draw from as the foremost core of our government. |
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slowmutant
Templar Knight
Joined: Feb 14, 2008
Posts: 5121
Location: Ontario Canada
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| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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"Anti-individual" refers here only to the gay individual.
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Ragtime
Legal Eagle Eye
Joined: Nov 03, 2006
Age: 29
Posts: 7392
Location: Dallas, Texas
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| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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| srriv345 wrote: | | The whole "changing marriage" idea is such a red herring. |
A red herring -- from what? "Red herrings" have to distract from something.
But the subject of this thread is singular -- namely, addressing the question
of whether or not marriage is changing.
I said that in the opening post, that such was the only question I was asking.
To determine whether or not your car is rolling slowly or standing still,
you look out the window. This thread is only about looking out the window.
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Anyone who is interested in philosophy, the of meaning of life, and answers to our hardest questions, I suggest you check out the free, online mp3 archive of Ravi Zacharias at www.rzim.org.
Last edited by Ragtime on Wed May 21, 2008 10:18 am; edited 3 times in total |
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Ragtime
Legal Eagle Eye
Joined: Nov 03, 2006
Age: 29
Posts: 7392
Location: Dallas, Texas
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| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Awesomelyglorious wrote: |
And I don't believe in either conservatives or liberals. |
Your views are becoming ever more flexible, AG.
Why, just today, you abandoned the distinction between logic and insanity:
| Awesomelyglorious wrote: | | Ragtime wrote: |
Logic, insanity... it's all the same to you. |
Logic is merely the apologetics of madness. |
_________________
Anyone who is interested in philosophy, the of meaning of life, and answers to our hardest questions, I suggest you check out the free, online mp3 archive of Ravi Zacharias at www.rzim.org.
Last edited by Ragtime on Tue May 20, 2008 5:01 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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