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Odin
Supreme Genius
Joined: Oct 13, 2006
Age: 22
Posts: 1885
Location: Moorhead, Minnesota, USA
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 Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 11:50 pm Post subject: |
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| oscuria wrote: | | Odin wrote: |
I don't care what the Bible says, I care about what LOGIC says. If someone considers himself a Christian he is a Christian. |
That is a stupid argument and not something that a logical person would say.
How many people scream "THAT ISN"T A TRUE COMMUNIST COUNTRY!" whenever a person mentions communism? Is that a no-true-scotsman fallacy? |
Yes, it is.
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Odin
Supreme Genius
Joined: Oct 13, 2006
Age: 22
Posts: 1885
Location: Moorhead, Minnesota, USA
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| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 11:53 pm Post subject: |
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| slowmutant wrote: | | Without God or faith of any kind, what is left to believe in? A belief in logic and reason is just pedestrian commonsense. |
I'm a Humanist, which means i believe in Humanity, human potential, and human dignity. I don't need fairy tales.
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Odin
Supreme Genius
Joined: Oct 13, 2006
Age: 22
Posts: 1885
Location: Moorhead, Minnesota, USA
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 12:02 am Post subject: |
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| Ragtime wrote: | | slowmutant wrote: | | Quote: | | Of course, Atheism is the LACK of belief, but that doesn't mean Atheists are nihilists, there are plenty of non-religious philosophies like Humanism. |
With only the absence of something to believe in, how can atheists be anything other than nihilistic? |
Atheism does put one well within arm's reach of nihilistic thoughts. |
No it doesn't.
Atheism being conflated with Nihilism is the result of subtle but pernicious dualistic assumptions permeating Western thought that leads the physical world to be degraded as being "mere" matter. Even many non-religious people still carry around these unquestioned assumptions. Atheism can only lead to nihilism if one still has these baseless dualistic assumptions in your mind.
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Sand
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 16, 2007
Posts: 2046
Location: Finland
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 12:49 am Post subject: |
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| The propaganda of religion is that without the subjugation to a totalitarian superbeing humans would regress to vicious brutality. The brutalities daily committed by super religious fanatics easily demonstrates the falsehood of this. There is a basic social decency in most humans and for religion to claim that as originating only in religion is one of its major lies. |
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oscuria
Verbal Guerrilla
Joined: Feb 01, 2008
Posts: 2066
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 12:53 am Post subject: |
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| Sand wrote: | | The propaganda of religion is that without the subjugation to a totalitarian superbeing humans would regress to vicious brutality. The brutalities daily committed by super religious fanatics easily demonstrates the falsehood of this. There is a basic social decency in most humans and for religion to claim that as originating only in religion is one of its major lies. |
Can you name an atheistic society that was a "Garden of Eden"?
The laws that we have today were at one point influenced by religion. The nations that were built were built around religion. Where have the atheistic nations been?
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Sand
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 16, 2007
Posts: 2046
Location: Finland
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 1:06 am Post subject: |
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Religion and superstition have afflicted humanity from its origin. Humans are social animals and as such must have basic biological drives not to commit mayhem indiscriminately upon each other and of course there are always individuals, religious and otherwise who take advantage of cultural trust and decency for personal gain. No society, religious or otherwise has ever been totally free of brutality and viciousness but amongst societies, those with the most stringent religious regulations have, in general, been the most vicious.
It is the basic nature of religion to confer on its adherents the sense of possession of absolute truth and this is one of its most dangerous qualities for it gives religious people the license to commit frightful horrors on people who would doubt or defy those convictions. |
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xyzyxx
Phoenix
Joined: Aug 08, 2007
Age: 22
Posts: 527
Location: Iowa, USA
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 1:23 am Post subject: Re: question for religious people |
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| snake321 wrote: | Ok, this can be for people of any monotheist religion, be it christianity, islam, judaism, w/e. So, you believe there is a humble, all powerful, all loving god..... Yet, god requires mere human beings (who are no doubt like ants compared to him), mere humans, to bow and worship him... That doesn't sound like a very humble act in my opinion.
Sounds more like subjugation, which is more or less slavery. For god to require us to bow to him or worship him would be very very egotistical, would it not? Plus it's like this, imagine I could somehow communicate with bugs, and I demanded them to worship me. What's the point? |
without reading the rest of the thread, let me answer this question myself based on what I know/what I have learned in my church.
First of all, God is not humble. He is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient. He is more powerful than any other being in the universe. And he knows this. There is nothing humble about that.
Second of all, God does not require anyone to worship him. He does not punish anyone for not believing in Him. Because He loves us, He allows us free will to believe in Him or not. |
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Sand
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 16, 2007
Posts: 2046
Location: Finland
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 6:12 am Post subject: |
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Fantastic! You know the mind of God.
The psychologist Szasz pointed out that many people speak to God but when they hear him answer it is usually a sign of schizophrenia. |
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snake321
phoenix
Joined: Mar 26, 2006
Age: 29
Posts: 3250
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 6:44 am Post subject: |
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| Sand wrote: | | The propaganda of religion is that without the subjugation to a totalitarian superbeing humans would regress to vicious brutality. The brutalities daily committed by super religious fanatics easily demonstrates the falsehood of this. There is a basic social decency in most humans and for religion to claim that as originating only in religion is one of its major lies. |
Spot on Sand, couldn't have said it better myself. |
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snake321
phoenix
Joined: Mar 26, 2006
Age: 29
Posts: 3250
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 6:46 am Post subject: Re: question for religious people |
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| xyzyxx wrote: | | snake321 wrote: | Ok, this can be for people of any monotheist religion, be it christianity, islam, judaism, w/e. So, you believe there is a humble, all powerful, all loving god..... Yet, god requires mere human beings (who are no doubt like ants compared to him), mere humans, to bow and worship him... That doesn't sound like a very humble act in my opinion.
Sounds more like subjugation, which is more or less slavery. For god to require us to bow to him or worship him would be very very egotistical, would it not? Plus it's like this, imagine I could somehow communicate with bugs, and I demanded them to worship me. What's the point? |
without reading the rest of the thread, let me answer this question myself based on what I know/what I have learned in my church.
First of all, God is not humble. He is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient. He is more powerful than any other being in the universe. And he knows this. There is nothing humble about that.
Second of all, God does not require anyone to worship him. He does not punish anyone for not believing in Him. Because He loves us, He allows us free will to believe in Him or not. |
Ok, if your arguing semantics. But for people who do believe in your god, they aren't allowed free will of thought. They claim (as you claim here) "god loves me", but "god" is very much a dictator here. |
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oscuria
Verbal Guerrilla
Joined: Feb 01, 2008
Posts: 2066
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 7:01 am Post subject: Re: question for religious people |
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| snake321 wrote: |
Ok, if your arguing semantics. But for people who do believe in your god, they aren't allowed free will of thought. They claim (as you claim here) "god loves me", but "god" is very much a dictator here. |
His very title and commandment entrusts Him as such. He is Love to those who Love Him, to those He has given Mercy to.
The rest are those who rebel against Him and will find no Mercy. It is a very simple concept. He is Benevolent to those who Love Him, and a Tyrant to those whom He have not Graced.
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phil777
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Joined: May 21, 2008
Age: 22
Posts: 70
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 10:31 am Post subject: |
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| I fancy myself to be humanitarian as well, but i will still say that some of moral values that the church teaches can be the basics to building a better world (love is all you need right?) |
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slowmutant
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 14, 2008
Age: 29
Posts: 8734
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 10:31 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I'm a Humanist, which means i believe in Humanity, human potential, and human dignity. I don't need fairy tales. |
Nor do we.
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Behold, I stand at the door and knock ... |
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Ragtime
Legal Eagle Eye
Joined: Nov 03, 2006
Age: 29
Posts: 7802
Location: Dallas, Texas
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 10:43 am Post subject: |
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| Sand wrote: |
It is the basic nature of religion to confer on its adherents the sense of possession of absolute truth and this is one of its most dangerous qualities for it gives religious people the license to commit frightful horrors on people who would doubt or defy those convictions. |
Religion also gives people an absolutely inviolable sense that they must do good for others,
and that, such as life is, we must often self-sacrifice in order to do so.
Focusing on high ideals like the will of a loving, all-powerful God causes one to love others,
and impresses upon one the fact that this necessity to show love is given by God, not by one's own
undependable, ever-changing emotional states. Therefore, to love one another is thought of by
Christians as an absolute command given by Jesus Himself. So, we can't
say, "Ah, I'm not in the mood to care about someone, or do anything good for
anyone, so I can just be selfish until I feel differently."
So, religion can give one a much more powerful and more focused sense of true goodness than atheism does.
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Ragtime
Legal Eagle Eye
Joined: Nov 03, 2006
Age: 29
Posts: 7802
Location: Dallas, Texas
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 10:56 am Post subject: |
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| greenblue wrote: | | Ragtime wrote: | | slowmutant wrote: | | Quote: | | Of course, Atheism is the LACK of belief, but that doesn't mean Atheists are nihilists, there are plenty of non-religious philosophies like Humanism. |
With only the absence of something to believe in, how can atheists be anything other than nihilistic? |
Atheism does put one well within arm's reach of nihilistic thoughts. |
ok, denying the existence in God, does not conform to all the requirements to follow nihilism philosophy and being considered nihilist, as you have said, you have read the Quran to criticize muslims, so I believe reading about nihilism would do some fairness. |
I said "nihilistic thoughts", not a formal, displined study of Nihilism.
The point is that atheism offers no grand purpose to the universe to focus on;
if the atheist wants such a grand purpose, he must try and inject one into it. ...Which, since it came from him to begin with,
is likely to be doubted by him during his times of depression. But God's principles are always true,
no matter how depressed or hopeless we temporarily become. He put the meaning into the universe,
so we don't have to try and take it upon ourselves to do so while throwing our own human errors and biases into the mix.
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I shaved off my goatee so that my wife could read my facial expressions better. She feels much happier and closer to me now. (Just thought I'd share this advice for any other bearded members.) |
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