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krex
Phoenix
Joined: Jun 21, 2006
Age: 46
Posts: 5090
Location: Village of the Damned
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 Posted: Sat May 24, 2008 4:00 am Post subject: |
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I seldom disagree with what you say Inventor...but what do we do with the children who are in so much pain. We can't kill all the bullies..there are to many and they still run the world. The sensory pain they feel is real...it was for me. I can't change that I was in pain but can't we do anything to help kids not be in so much pain ? I do think a lot of it could be eliminated by not trying to change things that don't need to be changed and encouraging things that work for them but they still have to go out into the real world and deal with all the bullies.
Suppressing my frustration and rage as a kid probably is what made me do so many hurtful things to myself but the alternative...hurting them...was seldom an option for me. They were bigger and they would just hurt me more. If we can't change the bullies and we can't change the rage, there must be away to help them feel less of the pain ?
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chesapeaker
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Joined: Apr 03, 2008
Posts: 106
Location: USA - upper Midwest
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| Posted: Sat May 24, 2008 7:46 am Post subject: |
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| little-bird wrote: | hey chesapeaker. i wasn't passing judgement, i was just querying what was said in previous posts because, like you said, i have no personal experience of CBT. like what soticoto's last post was saying - which seemed to me to be saying that they try to replace one emotion with another - which doesn't make sense to me. (Like you say - your emotions are your emotions.) so i think, okay...if that were the case, then yeah, it wouldn't be right, but...
i thought i was being sarcastic (but maybe that didn't come across).
would you say it is like unlearning those parts of our behaviour that were instilled in us as children, which now prevent us from living the lives we want? then learning new ways?
at the moment i'm finding buddhist studies helpful because it's very much more like a psychology or science - it teaches to become more aware of your mind, and the illusions of thought, etc |
Buddihist studies are great. I would resist anything trying to change me or make me feel guilty. (heels dug in type resistance) CBT just is a scientific way of systematically dealing with self damaging thinking, which in turn causes low self esteem, mental paralysis, depression, anger,etc. all those uncomfortable, self destructive , victim mode things we do. I found it very useful, since I am a scientific, factual thinker. My emotions can now be used to love people, dogs, horses,etc. My emotions are very good at sorting out bullshit, too. At least now I know what my emotions are telling me, and are useful. Before CBT it was all static!!!! Very painful static. I personally think most religiions, christian,muslim, jewism, etc. (not buddist) are ways for a few people to dominate, control and rip off the masses. |
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chesapeaker
Raven
Joined: Apr 03, 2008
Posts: 106
Location: USA - upper Midwest
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| Posted: Sat May 24, 2008 7:47 am Post subject: |
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| little-bird wrote: | hey chesapeaker. i wasn't passing judgement, i was just querying what was said in previous posts because, like you said, i have no personal experience of CBT. like what soticoto's last post was saying - which seemed to me to be saying that they try to replace one emotion with another - which doesn't make sense to me. (Like you say - your emotions are your emotions.) so i think, okay...if that were the case, then yeah, it wouldn't be right, but...
i thought i was being sarcastic (but maybe that didn't come across).
would you say it is like unlearning those parts of our behaviour that were instilled in us as children, which now prevent us from living the lives we want? then learning new ways?
at the moment i'm finding buddhist studies helpful because it's very much more like a psychology or science - it teaches to become more aware of your mind, and the illusions of thought, etc |
Buddihist studies are great. I would resist anything trying to change me or make me feel guilty. (heels dug in type resistance) CBT just is a scientific way of systematically dealing with self damaging thinking, which in turn causes low self esteem, mental paralysis, depression, anger,etc. all those uncomfortable, self destructive , victim mode things we do. I found it very useful, since I am a scientific, factual thinker. My emotions can now be used to love people, dogs, horses,etc. My emotions are very good at sorting out bullshit, too. At least now I know what my emotions are telling me, and are useful. Before CBT it was all static!!!! Very painful static. I personally think most religiions, christian,muslim, jewism, etc. (not buddist) are ways for a few people to dominate, control and rip off the masses. Buddism & CBT are actually very similar. |
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Inventor
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 16, 2007
Posts: 3538
Location: New Orleans
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| Posted: Sat May 24, 2008 3:00 pm Post subject: |
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| krex wrote: | I seldom disagree with what you say Inventor...but what do we do with the children who are in so much pain. We can't kill all the bullies..there are to many and they still run the world. The sensory pain they feel is real...it was for me. I can't change that I was in pain but can't we do anything to help kids not be in so much pain ? I do think a lot of it could be eliminated by not trying to change things that don't need to be changed and encouraging things that work for them but they still have to go out into the real world and deal with all the bullies.
Suppressing my frustration and rage as a kid probably is what made me do so many hurtful things to myself but the alternative...hurting them...was seldom an option for me. They were bigger and they would just hurt me more. If we can't change the bullies and we can't change the rage, there must be away to help them feel less of the pain ? |
I agree with that, but the answer is not how to change what is wrong with you, it is what is it that annoys you.
There is a problem, and my experiance it is the bully factor from parents and teachers made it open season on me for their other children.
They were the ones who equated different with wrong. It self justified them treating me any way that they wanted. I was scapegoated, blamed for everything wrong with their lives. I was the whipping boy to take the punishment for their feelings of low self esteme.
My mothers marriage broke up when I was two, guess who was blamed?
My teachers made a constant issue of a quite child, who made little eye contact, and too much when told, "look at me." The other children could get by sitting quietly in their desks doing their work, I did, made good grades, and was publically corrected daily.
It was never explained what I did that caused me to be sent to the principals office, he did not know. Not only was I sent from class for no reason, I was quite, and did not speak, for everything I said was wrong. and this teacher set out to destroy me. When I took my books and did as I was told, in silence not wanting to be in the same room with her, she crossed the room and slapped me in the back of the head as I was leaving.
After that I was often slapped in the back of the head by students, mosly in groups who then ran away.
My family and school both agreed it was my fault, and I deserved worse.
I was under strong demand to change, but no one ever said from what, to what.
Guess why I am yelling at you an hitting you, and turning the world out to join in?
When I asked for explanations, I got anger, more punishment, for I was nine, and should have known how to change myself to please all people in general.
I went to school, did my work, caused no problems, and lived a life of constant hell at home and at school. When I did make friends I was questioned about it, the other kids who were interested in Science, then the phone calls were made, and places I had been welcome I was met by the mother at the door and told harshly not to come back, and the door slammed in my face.
This from people who had welcomed me, had me in their house, till they were told something was wrong with me and I would most likely kill them all and burn down their house. These events were some of the few times I remember my mother smiling at me.
Whenever I found someone to talk to, their parents were informed. They had mistaken me for a smart child with an interest in Science, till they were told the truth.
After my education was ended at 14, I had the highest grades in reading comprehension, Science, Math, but did not make appropiate eye contact, which displeased some b***h goddesss teachers. I went and ran a pool hall, and made good money, I still shoot a good stick, bought a motorcycle, got a night job as assistant manager of a toy store, never came home till after midnight, and left first thing in the morning, I was only attacked a few times in my sleep with a broom.
When I went to college at 18, my family freaked, I could not do that, I was an uneducatable retard, and my mother demanded to know the names and phone numbers of my teachers, for she would soon set them straight.
I was going to school in the morning, working 40 hours at my computer job, the punch card era, 1968, and when passing through home being punched in the throut at dinner. It was my fault for trying to be something I could never be.
The local police became involved, and asked the same question my principal had, why were you sent to the office? It seems the police were told I owned a motorcycle, and was doing something. Being police they investigated, and told me I should move.
I did, to New York, and had a great time. Someone told the FBI I was avoiding the draft, and where I was hiding out. The only people who knew my address were my mother, and The US State Department where I worked.
"My Autistic child" often becomes the scapegoat for personal and family problems. Since it is common knowledge we do not have souls or legal rights, and parents will blame the chid if a teacher or anyone else strikes them, they are only defending their point of view, when all of the world's problems are blamed on a nine year old.
What irks me is the continuation into adult years. Parents lose the legal right to torture children at eighteen, but not the need. Everything was done to keep me from becoming an adult.
I have a Federal record for draft evasion. I was arrested, it was pop news back then. They were a bit embarrased when it came out that I was registered, with my draft board, and had never been called for a physical, no draft notice. I still have a record for being arrested for a Federal Felony. That cost me my job with the State Department. I am barred from Federal employment. No major Corporation would hire me.
Once parents start down the path of, it is the childs fault, and the child has to change to justify their actions, it never ends. Existing was my fault, they had a right to make my education, social life, employment life, and relation with the local police and FBI hell, to defend their actions.
To do anything else they would have to admit they were wrong, not a human trait, less so with the guilty. They stuck to, they had to do it because it was my fault.
I have a slightly different Neurology. what I gather from NT's is they think in words, and come up with one answer. I see in whole pictures with a thousand possible outcomes. From that I chose the ones closest to my goal. I am still told I am wrong, but not at The Patent Office.
My own career choices were Government, State Department, or IBM. One phone call blocked both of those lives. It would have made my fifth grade teacher, and others, look bad.
This whole idea of brainwashing children into pretending to enjoy the abuse and insults they recieve is a reverse of what I see, children are made angry and depressed by family and school, their world, and it is not the child's fault.
What you are asking for is, "Yassa massa, I loves the ways you beats me, you, dem teacher goddesses, alls the real chillen, it pleases me to be abused by all of you." It makes me so happy I get happy feet and wants to dance fo yo. I be your tard boy massa.
There is a problem, it is Neurological hard wiring, but not ours.
Children do grow into adults. It is very possible to destroy all of their future. They may age out of Autism, but that Federal record is forever.
I will admit we are not good at some things. We are very good at other things. The things we do not do well are common, where we excel our talents are rare, and in demand.
We have a Neurological differance, not a Behaviorial problem. NT's have behaviorial problems, mental illness, not us, and trying to fit us into a NT mold of defectiveness, then demanding that we apoligise, is not the answer.
If your child can paint with photographic skill, breaking their fingers is the wrong approach. Making them apoligize for having to have their fingers broken is also not wise.
The hard part is no NT can even glimse the mosazic pattern of thought we live in. LabPet describes it well for the video Smelena made. Or in he follow up, for I think the most important point for us, how we see, which LabPet nailed, was edited out by Smelena.
It is like submiting a mathematical answer and proof to someone who only knows a little arithmatic. They can be told, but lack the wiring to understand, and have the preconception that we are wrong, babbling nonsense, and they are trying to make us right, like them.
We are Broadband and digital, they are analog and POTS. Plain Old Telephone Service, one word at a time. They edit everything into text only, without graphics. What we communicate that is outside of their bandwidth is considered deranged thinking.
We start with a question, view all possible answers, and chose goals. They start with a goal, and break, bend, smash, trying to fit us into their view of a mold. I do not fit well through a twisted pair. That is the feed for POTS.
Maybe in this enlightened time it is no longer electro shock, Thorizine, calling the police on adult children, who dare just live and prosper, but the intent is the same, that little retard is going to pay for this, and smile and say thank you.
NT will never understand for they cannot see as we see, think as we think, and yet they can be sure we are wrong, and, freely use North Korean brainwashing tactics on children.
The art of brainwashing is first undermine what a person thinks, show them they are wrong, then offer to help them see the truth. This behaviorial modification is Pavlov applied to humans. It could be called "Teaching Stockhome Syndrom."
NT's are not evil, just ordinary people. It is I who have a hard time seeing a differance.
"The road to Hell is paved with good intentions."
Most NT behavior toward us has been discredited. Thorazine and electro convulsive shock were used on people who complained about being locked up without crime, trial, but on the word of their family, who saw they were going to inheret money, so had them locked up, stripped of legal rights, a Mental Patient, and took all the money.
When the courts closed that option, there was nothing medically wrong with us from 1974 to 1994. It just happens to coincide with the computer industry.
Now the unemployed Psych Warfare set is out to make a buck. Brainwashing and torture are banned by the Geneva Convention. Just because George Bush thinks waterboarding is a sport, that is not a green light for some Pop Psyc Professor to use it to cure Autism.
The Medical view of Autism is we know nothing. Real Doctors who use Science.
There are no drugs that benefit Autism.
There is no treatment shown to be effective except common sense and human decency.
We are not NT's with defective brains.
We are not NT's with a Developmental Disorder.
We are not NT's with a Mental Illness.
We are Autistics, shown to have a lot in common on WP, a type of human.
Until torture and brainwashing is renounced, until we are granted the right to be ourselves, I will object.
I object to being considered a hopeless retard and fair game to speak down to by NT's who just want to help.
I object when statments by the Autistic explaining the differance in brain function, thought patterns, are edited out.
We do not have Diplomatic Relations with the NT, they send Missionaries and Colonial Administrators to speak for us Natives.
The differance between Autism Speaks and Tony Attwood is the first ignores adult Autistics, and the second supports Cassandra Syndrome.
There are several million adult Autistics. Niether group wishes to study outcomes, as they are feeding off the children.
Adult Autistics are very vocal about what was done wrong to them, treatments and attitudes that hindered their development, and about the differances in thinking and working that benefit us during the adult years.
These children will become adults, brainwashed if Tony has his way. It will not help them in life, and only offers a short term benefit to parents and teachers who do not want to learn about us other than ways to control us. Heroin would do less long term damage.
I have a core of fairness and justice. without it, what would I be? Brainwashing is a direct attack on ethics, lying is good, lying is my friend. It may seem to fit the child into the NT world, but what of adult outcome?
What should be taught is what you can hear here from adult Autistics. First stop all the, "You poor suffering retard," view. In general we are more intelligent, even if we do flunk the social part of the test. We are good for what we are good for, and no amount of remedial eye contact, hand shaking, back slapping, and talking sports and celebs will aid us in any way, but will hinder our natural development toward being functioning adults in the world.
I do not like people electing themselves to come yell at me to change my ways. I do not need to be made to enjoy them trying to "help" me. I can sell out myself just fine if that is what I want.
Several million of us adults are getting by just fine. NT's are a pain, but we learn to cope. NT's also think NT's are a pain, so none of your lip.
We thank you for all of your effort in telling us we are wrong, and it is our fault. Now it is time to move on. Millions of us are having everything put at risk because a few untrained non-medical types have discovered us as children.
Atacking the Autistic Community is not being helpful. Trying programs developed for Depressed NT's, things read in some Woman's Magazine, Korean Brainwashing, or what you learned about Dog Training, is not being helpful.
It may make you feel better, "Do something, even if it is wrong," but it does not help our cause. You are making things worse, just another brick in the wall.
We are normal humans with a slight hardwired differance. We are not insane or criminal. In fact we run very honest, plain speaking, and just because we cannot understand the social value of football, or Paris Hilton's boobs, does not make us lesser beings.
We process information in batches. Words, pictures, colors, smells, sounds, all at once, so quit yelling. We do not get the "right answer", there is not "a" right answer, there are hundreds and thousands.
For a people who deal only in words, NT's are not very good at word usage. They also seem to have hearing problems, they only hear what they want to.
If they would make the effort to learn the langauge, so they could say what they mean, if they will accept written statments that must be dealt with sentence and paragraph at a time, no cheating allowed. If they can confine their statments to Reason, Science, and a record they will have to sign, date, and stick to, it may be possible to open Diplomatic Relations.
Before this can happen they must reconize that we are human, and have just as much right to be us, as they have to be them. We have lived through all of their tortures and never changed.
We should share the same goal of us becoming functioning adults. A first step would be renouncing torturing the children with Psychobabble. Until you acknowledge that we are not defective, insane, and at fault, there will be little room for progress.
I have had two basic relationships in life, those who saw me as defective, may they burn in Hell for all Eturnity, and those who saw me as having superior skills, and were glad to have someone around who could keep their computers running.
The first group gave me hell, the second money. I have never met anyone who did both.
Whenever the relationship starts with you are wrong, now here is an emotional thermometer, I know what group I am dealing with.
We will have Diplomatic Relations, recognition of our right to exist, or remain enemies.
Read Attwood's new book, "Getting rich off Autism."
He is a Professor turned Talk Show Pop Psych Celeb.
He has no Medical or Scientific credibility. He is a Con Man. |
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2ukenkerl
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Joined: Jul 20, 2007
Posts: 6392
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| Posted: Sat May 24, 2008 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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| krex wrote: | I seldom disagree with what you say Inventor...but what do we do with the children who are in so much pain. We can't kill all the bullies..there are to many and they still run the world. The sensory pain they feel is real...it was for me. I can't change that I was in pain but can't we do anything to help kids not be in so much pain ? I do think a lot of it could be eliminated by not trying to change things that don't need to be changed and encouraging things that work for them but they still have to go out into the real world and deal with all the bullies.
Suppressing my frustration and rage as a kid probably is what made me do so many hurtful things to myself but the alternative...hurting them...was seldom an option for me. They were bigger and they would just hurt me more. If we can't change the bullies and we can't change the rage, there must be away to help them feel less of the pain ? |
We could EASILY "kill all the bullies!"(Well, MOST anyway)! HOW:
1. Recognize that it is ILLEGAL to bully(It is assualt and/or battery), and ENFORCE IT! It has been for hundreds of years, but few recognize it, or enforce it, ESPECIALLY with kids, though I have seen NO age limit! It is interesting that kids enjoy protection from adults, but special treatment on BOTH sides as kids. That is ALL MESSED UP!
2. Make ANYONE caught failing to recognize or enforce it an ACCOMPLICE!
3. Treat them as you would an ADULT doing the same thing! And I mean with the expectation that they do the same with Adults!
4. Do NOT protect their records, give them very gentle treatment, or wipe the records clean after 18yo!
5. LET THEM KNOW THIS!!!!!!!!
If the teachers realize that they could be THROWN IN JAIL and LOSE THEIR CAREERS, they will treat it SERIOUSLY!
If the kids realize they could be THROWN IN JAIL and LOSE THEIR FUTURES, they will treat it SERIOUSLY!
If they bullies realize that they could be THROWN IN JAIL and LOSE THEIR FUTURES, they may treat it SERIOUSLY! If they don't, they better keep it quiet!!!!!
Heck, have you ever seen the movie ransom? http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0117438/
WATCH IT! A person kidnaps his kid, he gets sick of the whole thing, and realizes he CAN'T pay the money, because his son will then be a target. He decides to offer the money as a reward! |
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krex
Phoenix
Joined: Jun 21, 2006
Age: 46
Posts: 5090
Location: Village of the Damned
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| Posted: Sat May 24, 2008 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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Once again...well explained Inventor. I agree with your analysis but have problems with fitting it with my own experience.
At 26, after having failed at killing myself, failed at drowning the pain with chemicals and still unable to live comfortably in my own mind, I was desperate for any relief. I found it in CBT. It is brainwashing, you do have that right. But it was a kind that I could live with because I didn't have to say that what I believed, felt, thought wasa wrong but that it was unhelpful for me in functioning and not being so miserable. I would have preferred that people stop being insane and learned some rational reasoning skills but I couldn't change them so I had to change what I focused on. "IF" I could still have functioned and directed my anger and pain into creating something for myself, as you did. Perhaps I would not have needed to be brainwashed to function enough to avoid the perils of "social service intervention"<---far from ideal. Maybe those intervention and CBT were not the cause of more positive changes but I just grew up and my aspie brain found more productive ways to function ? It is hard to know, since they refuse to do any kind of study autism developmental changes through a life time. <---isn't that essential science/logic for understanding how or if their "interventions" are even effective? This seems so obvious to me, it is hard not thinking "conspiracy theory" , when looking at AS researchers and ABA use. How can you measure it's efficacy without a control group of individuals who are adults who have had o such intervention ?
Steve...
the problem with you solution is that most NT's think bullying is a good thing. It forces people to conform which is a positive quality to them. I see examples of it all the time in real life and on-line. People who say it is a good thing to abuse others because it will "toughen them up" and make them ready for the "real world". it is the reinforcement of ...Boys will be Boys and girls will only date boys who are boys.....evidently it is seen as a genetic imperative to create a race of people who will have no problem with being cruel to others or killing them when the government(or their peer group) says they should.
_________________
Just because one plane is flying out of formation, doesnt mean the formation is on course....R.D.Lang
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chesapeaker
Raven
Joined: Apr 03, 2008
Posts: 106
Location: USA - upper Midwest
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| Posted: Sat May 24, 2008 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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| krex wrote: | Once again...well explained Inventor. I agree with your analysis but have problems with fitting it with my own experience.
At 26, after having failed at killing myself, failed at drowning the pain with chemicals and still unable to live comfortably in my own mind, I was desperate for any relief. I found it in CBT. It is brainwashing, you do have that right. But it was a kind that I could live with because I didn't have to say that what I believed, felt, thought wasa wrong but that it was unhelpful for me in functioning and not being so miserable. I would have preferred that people stop being insane and learned some rational reasoning skills but I couldn't change them so I had to change what I focused on. "IF" I could still have functioned and directed my anger and pain into creating something for myself, as you did. Perhaps I would not have needed to be brainwashed to function enough to avoid the perils of "social service intervention"<---far from ideal. Maybe those intervention and CBT were not the cause of more positive changes but I just grew up and my aspie brain found more productive ways to function ? It is hard to know, since they refuse to do any kind of study autism developmental changes through a life time. <---isn't that essential science/logic for understanding how or if their "interventions" are even effective? This seems so obvious to me, it is hard not thinking "conspiracy theory" , when looking at AS researchers and ABA use. How can you measure it's efficacy without a control group of individuals who are adults who have had o such intervention ?
Steve...
the problem with you solution is that most NT's think bullying is a good thing. It forces people to conform which is a positive quality to them. I see examples of it all the time in real life and on-line. People who say it is a good thing to abuse others because it will "toughen them up" and make them ready for the "real world". it is the reinforcement of ...Boys will be Boys and girls will only date boys who are boys.....evidently it is seen as a genetic imperative to create a race of people who will have no problem with being cruel to others or killing them when the government(or their peer group) says they should. |
WHOA WHOA WHOA Where do you Aspies get off with such awful generalizations? "MOST NT's think bullying is a good thing?" I am an NT and I was bullied and beat up quite a bit and I certainly do not think that is a good idea.
Also, I have had to deal with social services and the rest of the "helpers". Quite frankly, if you rely on them very long, you end up having to be a victim all the time to get any services. I would rather kill myself than have to deal with that, too. |
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nannarob
Phoenix
Joined: Apr 14, 2007
Posts: 1349
Location: Queensland
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| Posted: Sat May 24, 2008 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Inventor wrote: | Everyone is different. The root of all problems is those who think they have some right to be annoying.
I am an intelligent human with no interest in sports, popular culture, or socializing with people who do.
I read non fiction, things mechanical and computer are changing the world, and that is my interest.
My view of life is not shared by most, That is OK with me, but they are sure I should change.
That is the root problem. Not only do they live by instinct, they label me as not being them, hence wrong, and and feel they all have a right to their animal superiorty.
They demand that I socialize with them, so they will have someone to lie too and about, an perhaps a chance to steal something.
They have nothing to say that is is of any interest to me. I avoid them. A lot less gets stolen.
As a gang they demand to force themselves on me. I go out of my way to avoid them, they do the same to cure me of my withdrawn ways.
I can only see it as animal instinct, it has caused all the animals around to feel they have a right to annoy me any way they can. Trying to explain how I see things, they just turn ugly, shouting, phyical threats, in what was an attempted intellectual discussion.
They are not attacking me, they are defending themselves. I have an IQ of 140, and get called a retard by people with IQ's of 100.
They feel they are right, thiers is the only way, and anyone who does not fit in their world view must change.
First they reject you, then attack, slander, warning others about you, then it is pxychobabble, you should go see a head doctor because they just do not like you.
Those who belive them buy the Guru Attwood new cars, and spend a decade supporting the pharmacy. Then they find some Pop Psych, like emotional thermomators, and stop taking pills. It works!
Or, it was all a lie from day one.
Read Nominlist to see how the great doctors treated the same thing in the 60's, stright jackets, ice water baths, Thorazine, electro convulsive shock.
The same group who sent their children there are now looking for a new method to punish them for being wrong.
We are all different. If you feel that my version is your business, I feel your nose is too long, and I will shorten it for you.
The only cure for NT is tough love, and a bloody nose.
"Treat them like people,
they act like dogs,
treat then like dogs,
they act like well behaved dogs"
Any suggestion that brainwashing and teaching children to live a lie of false feelings and emotions is a direct attack on children. It is the worst possible form of abuse.
It was a long and uncomfortable journey to get away from those who thought I was wrong and should be changed. They set my adult life back decades. Hearing of their deaths cheers me up, not soon enough, but something. I just hope they suffered alot.
Religion consols me, perhaps they will burn in hell for all eturnity.
They did change me, once I had a natural love for them.
All NT are Curbies. |
You really disappoint me, Inventor.
_________________
NEVER EVER GIVE UP
I think there must be some chronic learning disability that is so prevalent among NT's that it goes unnoticed by the "experts". Krex
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krex
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Joined: Jun 21, 2006
Age: 46
Posts: 5090
Location: Village of the Damned
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| Posted: Sat May 24, 2008 7:08 pm Post subject: |
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| chesapeaker wrote: | | krex wrote: | Once again...well explained Inventor. I agree with your analysis but have problems with fitting it with my own experience.
At 26, after having failed at killing myself, failed at drowning the pain with chemicals and still unable to live comfortably in my own mind, I was desperate for any relief. I found it in CBT. It is brainwashing, you do have that right. But it was a kind that I could live with because I didn't have to say that what I believed, felt, thought wasa wrong but that it was unhelpful for me in functioning and not being so miserable. I would have preferred that people stop being insane and learned some rational reasoning skills but I couldn't change them so I had to change what I focused on. "IF" I could still have functioned and directed my anger and pain into creating something for myself, as you did. Perhaps I would not have needed to be brainwashed to function enough to avoid the perils of "social service intervention"<---far from ideal. Maybe those intervention and CBT were not the cause of more positive changes but I just grew up and my aspie brain found more productive ways to function ? It is hard to know, since they refuse to do any kind of study autism developmental changes through a life time. <---isn't that essential science/logic for understanding how or if their "interventions" are even effective? This seems so obvious to me, it is hard not thinking "conspiracy theory" , when looking at AS researchers and ABA use. How can you measure it's efficacy without a control group of individuals who are adults who have had o such intervention ?
Steve...
the problem with you solution is that most NT's think bullying is a good thing. It forces people to conform which is a positive quality to them. I see examples of it all the time in real life and on-line. People who say it is a good thing to abuse others because it will "toughen them up" and make them ready for the "real world". it is the reinforcement of ...Boys will be Boys and girls will only date boys who are boys.....evidently it is seen as a genetic imperative to create a race of people who will have no problem with being cruel to others or killing them when the government(or their peer group) says they should. |
WHOA WHOA WHOA Where do you Aspies get off with such awful generalizations? "MOST NT's think bullying is a good thing?" I am an NT and I was bullied and beat up quite a bit and I certainly do not think that is a good idea.
Also, I have had to deal with social services and the rest of the "helpers". Quite frankly, if you rely on them very long, you end up having to be a victim all the time to get any services. I would rather kill myself than have to deal with that, too. |
I say MOST and not all because I know there to be exceptions. I "get off" making such generalizations because I see bullying as being institutionally excepted in past and present human societies. If you are not aware of this you need to read a bit more about how human societies are structured. Your situation proves my case rather then disproves it...bullying isn't about AS or NT being the victim...it's about forced conformity, punishment for not conforming and Non-bullies looking the other way when someone is being bullied....regardless if that bullying is individual or part of a social/governmental/company structure. Are there NT and AS individuals who try and change this and stand up to bullies....YES. But if there were more of them, or the majority of those in power did not think it was OK, then the bullying would not still be happening. That is just logic.
I'm sorry if that threatens your current gestalt but it happens to be illustrated through out human interactions and through out time. I'm very proud of the AS and NT who fight against these things but even the writers of the constitution did not include women and slaves in their desire for the rights of the individual. I don't fight my depression by ignoring the obvious but by just not focusing but it was relevant to the conversation.
You have to trust me that I don't think all NT are bad or all AS are saints...I have rad to many posts here to operate under that delusion. Evidently, for whatever reasons, we are also capable of bullying but I don't think we are actually incharge of the social and institutional condonment of bullying...we learned that 
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2ukenkerl
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| Posted: Sat May 24, 2008 7:13 pm Post subject: |
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| krex wrote: | ...
Steve...
the problem with you solution is that most NT's think bullying is a good thing. It forces people to conform which is a positive quality to them. I see examples of it all the time in real life and on-line. People who say it is a good thing to abuse others because it will "toughen them up" and make them ready for the "real world". it is the reinforcement of ...Boys will be Boys and girls will only date boys who are boys.....evidently it is seen as a genetic imperative to create a race of people who will have no problem with being cruel to others or killing them when the government(or their peer group) says they should. |
GREAT, LOCK UP THE IDIOTS! GOOD RIDDANCE! I LOVE females! It is kind of a curse. I know what monk( http://www.usanetwork.com/series/monk/ ) means when he says "It's a blessing, AND a curse". Those boys AREN'T simply acting as boys! It isn't ALL boys! It is NOT a genetic imperative.
PLEASE don't tell me YOU feel amorous towards such idiots!
And, GUESS WHAT!!!!!!!! Remember how I said I love females? That makes it REAL hard for me to hurt one! Many of those "boys", as you call them, have NO such limitation! The girls that only want THEM aren't worth it, and THEY may end up beaten up, etc...
If one of those women comes to me with such a concern, etc... I have to remind myself that they DID ask for it. If they want to marry such a person, oh well...
Maybe it is the AS or something. I don't know. I don't like the idea of people unjustly getting hurt and I tend to expect more from females, even though logically I know that is crazy, and I give them a lot more tolerance. |
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pluto
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Age: 49
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| Posted: Sat May 24, 2008 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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Like Nannarob,I'm disappointed as well in your post Inventor and the direction this thread has taken.Tony Attwood's first book was a revelation to me,he's done so much research into Asperger's that he seemed to have a clear insight into a lot of our problems.
I was bullied at school and it took me a long time to recover,to realise that my own reactions
of anger and bitterness were part of the same negative forces used by bullies that cause a cycle of imbalance,division and conflict. I like to think I can see things more objectively than I used to and what I see from Tony Attwood and others are not misguided 'cures' but for the most part genuine and unconditional offers of help and advice. There will always be areas of misunderstandings and people who have their own agendas on both sides but ultimately we
are all part of the same world and have to maintain balance as best we can,for the sake of
our own wellbeing and those whose lives we affect.
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krex
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Age: 46
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Location: Village of the Damned
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| Posted: Sat May 24, 2008 7:22 pm Post subject: |
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To answer your question Steve...no, I never liked the macho guys and I never had much patience for what I would consider overly female( vulnerable and not bright)act that some women put on. Actually, I don't hold with much gender role playing, just never appealed to me. I'm only stating what some social scientist state is their observation of most courtships. Hopefully, it will become out-dated someday...not holding my breath. I do have a sister, not AS who is attracted to the "masochist guys because she believed they would protect her..she is now suffering from debilitating arthritis exasterbated from all the beatings she had from her "protectors".
I don't dislike anyone for showing strength or protection of self and loved ones, that actually describes me in some respects...even if it isn't shown with physical violence. But I have dropped people who demonstrated any kind of bully behavior because it disgusts me and I know that I could be next.
As far as the breeding aspect. Perhaps the increase in AS is because more women have gotten past the need for such bullies? One can only hope.
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chesapeaker
Raven
Joined: Apr 03, 2008
Posts: 106
Location: USA - upper Midwest
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| Posted: Sat May 24, 2008 10:21 pm Post subject: |
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| krex wrote: | | chesapeaker wrote: | | krex wrote: | Once again...well explained Inventor. I agree with your analysis but have problems with fitting it with my own experience.
At 26, after having failed at killing myself, failed at drowning the pain with chemicals and still unable to live comfortably in my own mind, I was desperate for any relief. I found it in CBT. It is brainwashing, you do have that right. But it was a kind that I could live with because I didn't have to say that what I believed, felt, thought wasa wrong but that it was unhelpful for me in functioning and not being so miserable. I would have preferred that people stop being insane and learned some rational reasoning skills but I couldn't change them so I had to change what I focused on. "IF" I could still have functioned and directed my anger and pain into creating something for myself, as you did. Perhaps I would not have needed to be brainwashed to function enough to avoid the perils of "social service intervention"<---far from ideal. Maybe those intervention and CBT were not the cause of more positive changes but I just grew up and my aspie brain found more productive ways to function ? It is hard to know, since they refuse to do any kind of study autism developmental changes through a life time. <---isn't that essential science/logic for understanding how or if their "interventions" are even effective? This seems so obvious to me, it is hard not thinking "conspiracy theory" , when looking at AS researchers and ABA use. How can you measure it's efficacy without a control group of individuals who are adults who have had o such intervention ?
Steve...
the problem with you solution is that most NT's think bullying is a good thing. It forces people to conform which is a positive quality to them. I see examples of it all the time in real life and on-line. People who say it is a good thing to abuse others because it will "toughen them up" and make them ready for the "real world". it is the reinforcement of ...Boys will be Boys and girls will only date boys who are boys.....evidently it is seen as a genetic imperative to create a race of people who will have no problem with being cruel to others or killing them when the government(or their peer group) says they should. |
WHOA WHOA WHOA Where do you Aspies get off with such awful generalizations? "MOST NT's think bullying is a good thing?" I am an NT and I was bullied and beat up quite a bit and I certainly do not think that is a good idea.
Also, I have had to deal with social services and the rest of the "helpers". Quite frankly, if you rely on them very long, you end up having to be a victim all the time to get any services. I would rather kill myself than have to deal with that, too. |
I say MOST and not all because I know there to be exceptions. I "get off" making such generalizations because I see bullying as being institutionally excepted in past and present human societies. If you are not aware of this you need to read a bit more about how human societies are structured. Your situation proves my case rather then disproves it...bullying isn't about AS or NT being the victim...it's about forced conformity, punishment for not conforming and Non-bullies looking the other way when someone is being bullied....regardless if that bullying is individual or part of a social/governmental/company structure. Are there NT and AS individuals who try and change this and stand up to bullies....YES. But if there were more of them, or the majority of those in power did not think it was OK, then the bullying would not still be happening. That is just logic.
I'm sorry if that threatens your current gestalt but it happens to be illustrated through out human interactions and through out time. I'm very proud of the AS and NT who fight against these things but even the writers of the constitution did not include women and slaves in their desire for the rights of the individual. I don't fight my depression by ignoring the obvious but by just not focusing but it was relevant to the conversation.
You have to trust me that I don't think all NT are bad or all AS are saints...I have rad to many posts here to operate under that delusion. Evidently, for whatever reasons, we are also capable of bullying but I don't think we are actually incharge of the social and institutional condonment of bullying...we learned that :wink: |
We all have a story - |
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krex
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Joined: Jun 21, 2006
Age: 46
Posts: 5090
Location: Village of the Damned
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| Posted: Sat May 24, 2008 10:44 pm Post subject: |
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Wow...Cheasapeaker... I wrote a long response and realized I was just wasting both of our times. We are wired differently. You are just not going to understand and I am not going to understand your perspective. Why are you on this web-site. Is your daughter and aspie?
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chesapeaker
Raven
Joined: Apr 03, 2008
Posts: 106
Location: USA - upper Midwest
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| Posted: Sat May 24, 2008 11:34 pm Post subject: |
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| krex wrote: | | Wow...Cheasapeaker... I wrote a long response and realized I was just wasting both of our times. We are wired differently. You are just not going to understand and I am not going to understand your perspective. Why are you on this web-site. Is your daughter and aspie? |
Well, I am sorry. |
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