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AspE
Deinonychus
Joined: Jan 01, 2008
Posts: 399
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 Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 10:03 pm Post subject: |
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| The title of this thread if misleading. Obama did not say support for Israel is sacrosanct, he said Israel's security is sacrosanct. |
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The_Chosen_One
Lord of all who roam in my domain
Joined: Jul 27, 2007
Posts: 1371
Location: Looking down on humanity
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| Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 12:00 am Post subject: |
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OK, let me get this straight; you have a right wing conservative Christian in McCain who wants to continue the war against terror and inflames the Muslims by supporting the status quo, as well as taking support from rabid evangelists like Parsley and those other dickheads. Then you have Obama, a black guy who says securing Israel's existence is paramount, and by that he is also inflaming the Muslims and Arabs who don't see the need for Israel to be consistently getting handouts when the Palestinian people get f**k-all. So if you look closer at this, the ones who are REALLY running the US are the state of Israel themselves 9which includes all the Zionist Jews), because they are REALLY the ones with all the money that is being used to fund all this crap. And what does the book of revelation supposedly predict? Armageddon. And where? the middle east. 'When the temple of Abraham is rebuilt is when the day of judgement will come'. News for them. The dome of the Rock sits on that site, and if the US or Israel touches it, then the Muslims will go totally ape-sh**. The prediction will come true then, but it won't be the MMuslims or Al Quaeda that starts it. And for me as a pagan, that makes me incredibly sick to my stomach that this could happen.
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Pagans are people too, not just victims of a religious cleansing program. Universal harmony for all!!
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skafather84
Platypus God
Joined: Mar 21, 2006
Age: 25
Posts: 6524
Location: New Orleans, LA
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| Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 12:56 am Post subject: |
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| AspE wrote: | | The title of this thread if misleading. Obama did not say support for Israel is sacrosanct, he said Israel's security is sacrosanct. |
that changes things completely...i must have misread the article.
i think security is very important.
all i hope is that things are dealt with more even-handedly and with less of a bias towards israel but i doubt that will happen. there are too many israeli citizens in positions as either elected or appointed policy makers in the US government. |
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The_Chosen_One
Lord of all who roam in my domain
Joined: Jul 27, 2007
Posts: 1371
Location: Looking down on humanity
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| Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 4:36 am Post subject: |
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I just wish the Arabs and the Israelis would sort out their differences properly so none of us will get dragged into any more trouble in the middle east!
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Pagans are people too, not just victims of a religious cleansing program. Universal harmony for all!!
Karma decides what must happen, and that includes everyone. |
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Mc_Jeff
Pileated woodpecker
Joined: Jul 30, 2007
Posts: 194
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| Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 8:59 am Post subject: |
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| The_Chosen_One wrote: | | nflaming the Muslims and Arabs who don't see the need for Israel to be consistently getting handouts when the Palestinian people get f**k-all. |
What have the Palestinians done to deserve "f**k all"?
And how would you propose we make sure they don't spend it all on weapons? |
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Ragtime
Legal Eagle Eye
Joined: Nov 03, 2006
Age: 30
Posts: 8764
Location: Dallas, Texas
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| Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 9:08 am Post subject: |
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Obama: words.
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We believed that most politicians had shown no evidence of moral conscience -- until we became well aquainted with Barack Hussein Obama. Then, we realize they actually had. |
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monty
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 05, 2007
Posts: 3158
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| Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 11:06 am Post subject: |
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| techstepgenr8tion wrote: | | A majority of those of Jewish decent in our country vote democrat. I think he was trying to shore up his base as well as do his best with words to try and sweep the critics of his policy on Ahmadinejad talks under the rug. I'm sure the Knesset's taking these claims with a HUGE grain of salt. |
America has always supported Israel in their right to exist. The difference between the parties and candidates:
1) Some believe that the US should be a neutral 'honest broker' that tries for peace, and from time to time, may ask Israel to compromise or show restraint. Israel seen as a country that often (but not always) shares interests with US.
2) Others support Israel regardless of what it may do, and support Israels expansion beyond its legal borders. These adopt the Likud 'no-compromise' language and often equate Israel's interests with US interests. |
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history_of_psychiatry
Poopenheimer
Joined: Dec 23, 2006
Age: 25
Posts: 1233
Location: America's penis (Florida)
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| Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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If we give the israelis so much foreign aid, they need to help us out more. Why can't they be the ones in Iraq? They need to be the one's to attack the saudi radicles. I don't believe in monotheist biblical thought one bit, but i believe that even though israel has a right to exist, it should be shared equally between the jews and muslims. The way i see it, if the jews and muslims want to kill and slaughter each other over a tiny piece of land then that's their problem. The USA should not be invoved in their childish little battle.
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LePetitPrince
Phoenix
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Joined: Mar 03, 2006
Posts: 5130
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| Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
The way i see it, if the jews and muslims want to kill and slaughter each other over a tiny piece of land then that's their problem. The USA should not be invoved in their childish little battle.
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True...but the problem that you have many of your people who believe in the "Word of God" and in the book of revelation and other shits. It is clearly obvious that the source motif of US's support to Israel is not just only strategic or economical but it is originally a popular religious belief in the US society ,especially among the Protestants.
People like Ragtime and Co. are Christian yet they support the Zionist cause as if they are Zionist Jews (even if they believe that Jews are going to hell too, haha for the irony)
There's no such active Christian Zionism movement as the American Zionist Movement.
In United States politics, Christian Zionism is important because it covers an important Republican voters: fundamentalist and evangelical Protestants who are in LOVE with Israel. The Democratic Party, which is supported by the most of American Jews, is also generally pro-Israel, but with fewer theological underpinnings.
Some few lines of what the evangelical protestant and the Jews believe:
* Deuteronomy 1:6-8
* The LORD our God spoke unto us in Horeb, saying: ‘Ye have dwelt long enough in this mountain; turn you, and take your journey, and go to the hill-country of the Amorites and unto all the places nigh thereunto, in the Arabah, in the hill-country, and in the Lowland, and in the South, and by the sea-shore; the land of the Canaanites, and Lebanon, as far as the great river, the river Euphrates. Behold, I have set the land before you: go in and possess the land which the LORD swore unto your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give unto them and to their seed after them.’
* Deuteronomy 11:24
* Every place whereon the sole of your foot shall tread shall be yours: from the wilderness, and Lebanon, from the river, the river Euphrates, even unto the hinder sea shall be your border.
* Joshua 1:4
* From the wilderness, and this Lebanon, even unto the great river, the river Euphrates, all the land of the Hittites, and unto the Great Sea toward the going down of the sun, shall be your border.
Your god is so obsessed in dominating lebanon by 'his people' :S , was his ex-girlfriend lebanese ?  . How peace can ever be made in ME if you have hordes of shithead zealots who believe blindly in these things? |
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techstepgenr8tion
that chatty American
Joined: Feb 07, 2005
Age: 30
Posts: 7167
Location: The fine world of insomnia and coffee
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| Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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| monty wrote: |
America has always supported Israel in their right to exist. |
I always knew that. Just saying that when Obama says it, he's partly trying to recover from his gaff about talking to Ahmadinejad without preconditions. If he's willing to do that, he's really putting Israel in a bad situation because he's showing that the U.S. has incompetent leadership, a weakness that Ahmadinejad could easily take advantage of and absolutely would. Then again I firmly believe the guy could and would be straightened out but it would probably take the secretary of defense grabbing him by the collar, throwing him up against the wall, and giving him a good spray-through-the-teeth lecture about life; those sorts of situations unfortunately really fall back most on our soldiers who are over in that area, the weaker our heads of state make themselves look the more incentive they have to really go after our soldiers and try to blow them as well as other Muslims up.
| monty wrote: | The difference between the parties and candidates:
1) Some believe that the US should be a neutral 'honest broker' that tries for peace, and from time to time, may ask Israel to compromise or show restraint. Israel seen as a country that often (but not always) shares interests with US.
2) Others support Israel regardless of what it may do, and support Israels expansion beyond its legal borders. These adopt the Likud 'no-compromise' language and often equate Israel's interests with US interests. |
I'm really not sure what we're talking about with 'expansion beyond its legal boarders'. If your talking about the Golan Heights I think they'll be able to give that up the day that Syria's leadership is deposed by a democracy that's extremely heavy handed on terrorism and would never let Hezbollah even near that border at any cost; that sort of thing won't happen any time soon and Israeli leaders would be out of their minds to give that back until that day comes (Ehud Olmert is on his way out thankfully). I literally can't think of any other lands that your talking about. The west bank and Gaza were given back, the U.S. has been very critical of Israel anytime its developed there; being that we're their biggest backer it gives us a screaming headache when they do things that excaberate the situation (of course acts of self-defense we condone; when it comes to that, when you trace the cause and effect, Israel is almost always retaliating rather than leading any particular situation - save the nuclear reactor it blew up in Iraq in the 80's).
Also monty, I think I've had conversations with you before. If you do believe that Israels boarders start with the east coast of the Mediterranean and cover bodies of water until you hit any given land mass, rock, or island - I'll just say that you have to understand as well the nature of this situation. I hold nothing against the British but this whole situation, Israel and Palestine, started in 1920 and what the Brits specifically did *not* do during their occupation between 1920 and 1948 in terms of mediation have a lot to do with how and why this situation got so bad. They told two peoples individually that the land was all theirs, the kinds of stuff we've seen in the past 20 or 30 years really started happening as early as the 1930's, and when there were commissions put together to resolve the situation they always took a good look at it, assessed it, and gave up. |
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Fnord
Metasyntactic Variable
Joined: May 07, 2008
Posts: 6251
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| Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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Support of Israel is not "sacrosanct" - it is an institution of economic, military, and political convenience.
Only this, and nothing more.
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catspurr
Phoenix
Joined: Jan 16, 2008
Posts: 781
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| Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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| I still support Ron Paul. |
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