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monty
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DukeGallison
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monty
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 Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:58 pm Post subject: |
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But this bacterial experiment has the 'missing fossils' - they are alive in a deep freeze and have been thawed to repeat the process, and to study the genetics behind it all.
And the Cambrian Explosion (a 20 million year period) doesn't do anything to disprove evolution. Biologists accept the idea of punctuated equillibrium - occasional developments may lead to a sudden expansion of a group of organisms, and as they expand their range and differentiate, they form new species at a rate much faster than is ordinarily seen.
| Quote: | Punctuated equillibrium was based on the find that some fossil lineages show long periods of stasis, accompanied by sudden bursts of change. Gould and others proposed that most species find their way into a stable ecological niche, and are then under no pressure to change until there's a sudden ecological shift, such as a climate change or mass extinction.
http://arstechnica.com/journals/science.ars/2006/10/6/5532
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On the other hand, the Cambrian Explosion does more than argue against young Earth creationism - it demolishes it. |
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Diamonddavej
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| Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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I find it very curious how American evangelical Christians try to defend their faith via science, and see science as such a threat. I think this may have something to do with the esteem and respect that science has in American culture.
Here in Ireland, though the importance of religion has diminished in the last 20 years, there is a huge separation between religion and science, a implicit recognition that they do not answer questions in the same way. Here in Ireland there is a long standing feeling that science and technology (industry) are "English", that the Irish are instead a nation of "Poets and Scholars", thus science was never that important. This science v's religion seems very strange.
All in all, a faith that recognizes that science does not and cannot comment on matters of faith (and vice versa) is far more resistant to the "Acid of Science". |
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monty
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| Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Even though I was raised on the other side (Anglican/Episcopal religious tradition), there was a similar separation of religion and science. The Bible was not understood as a literal science text, and religion was seen as something that was essential to guide science on moral and ethical issues. I think in the case of US fundamentalists, they start from a base of literal innerrancy, which leads them to scientifically indefensible positions. |
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Ragtime
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| Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 3:37 pm Post subject: |
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Wow, in 44,000 generations, bacteria changes a little bit. I'm so surprised.
It's called mutation.
This, it should be noted, has absolutely nothing to do with any possible large-scale
change over time from, say, a bacterium to a human being. Such fairytales are not to be
taken seriously.
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monty
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| Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Ragtime wrote: | Wow, in 44,000 generations, bacteria changes a little bit. I'm so surprised.
It's called mutation.
This, it should be noted, has absolutely nothing to do with any possible large-scale
change over time from, say, a bacterium to a human being. Such fairytales are not to be
taken seriously. |
I also suppose you would say that even though we see parts of the Earth moving an inch or two a year, the ideas of tectonics and mountain building are also fairy tales. After all, there is no way continents could move thousands of miles when the Earth is only about 6000 years old? |
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Orwell
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| Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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Speciation has been observed scores of times, both in the laboratory and in nature. Now we have a good example of a novel development (one which YECs often claim is impossible) and it is dismissed out of hand by a YEC. I'm so surprised.
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Ancalagon
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| Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 5:36 pm Post subject: |
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What's a "YEC"?
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twoshots
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| Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Ancalagon wrote: | | What's a "YEC"? |
Young Earth Creationist
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Orwell
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| Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 5:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Ancalagon wrote: | | What's a "YEC"? |
Lucky you not to know this. Ignorance is bliss.
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Pobodys_Nerfect
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| Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Wow they were really lucky to witness evolution! What were the chances of this evolution taking place in those scientists' lifetimes? |
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pbcoll
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| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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| monty wrote: | | Ragtime wrote: | Wow, in 44,000 generations, bacteria changes a little bit. I'm so surprised.
It's called mutation.
This, it should be noted, has absolutely nothing to do with any possible large-scale
change over time from, say, a bacterium to a human being. Such fairytales are not to be
taken seriously. |
I also suppose you would say that even though we see parts of the Earth moving an inch or two a year, the ideas of tectonics and mountain building are also fairy tales. After all, there is no way continents could move thousands of miles when the Earth is only about 6000 years old? |
Yes but fundamentalists are not interested in evidence - they will hypocritically take anything vaguely scientific that is in any way consistent with what they have already decided is true and claim it as 'proof' but there is no amount of contrary evidence that they will ever accept. Since at least St Thomas Aquin the attitude has been 'if I can find rational arguments in favour of what I will believe anyway, so much the better; otherwise I'll just appeal to revelation.' I suppose God created the fossil record for a laugh (is that the same reason why he presumably created smallpox and bubonic plague?)
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Orwell
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| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 8:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Pobodys_Nerfect wrote: | | Wow they were really lucky to witness evolution! What were the chances of this evolution taking place in those scientists' lifetimes? |
Pretty good, actually. Numerous speciation events have been observed in real-time.
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Ancalagon
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| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 8:37 pm Post subject: |
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| pbcoll wrote: | | monty wrote: |
I also suppose you would say that even though we see parts of the Earth moving an inch or two a year, the ideas of tectonics and mountain building are also fairy tales. After all, there is no way continents could move thousands of miles when the Earth is only about 6000 years old? |
Yes but fundamentalists are not interested in evidence - they will hypocritically take anything vaguely scientific that is in any way consistent with what they have already decided is true and claim it as 'proof' |
Many atheists are the same way.
Also, the tectonic plate analogy is deeply flawed -- tectonic plates are comparatively extremely simple. Their behavior can be predicted.
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