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Anemone
Phoenix
Joined: Mar 18, 2008
Age: 43
Posts: 829
Location: Vancouver, Canada
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 Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 2:20 pm Post subject: male brains, female brains, and respect |
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From Simon Baron-Cohen (2003). The Essential Difference: The truth about the male and female brain.
He talks about how male brains are geared more toward systemizing (technology and systems) and female brains are geared more towards empathizing (relationships), and then he talks about autistic people having extreme male brains (very high systemizing, very low empathizing). (NOTE: the adults he sees with AS in their clinic are almost all male.) Then he talks about a hypothetical extreme female brain type (very high empathizing, very low systemizing):
| Quote: | | When we find someone with the extreme female brain, my guess is that we will also find that society has made it easy for them to find a niche and a value, without that person having to feel that they must in some way hide their systemblindness. I hope that at least one benefit of this book is that society might become more accepting of essential sex differences in the mind, and make it easier for someone with the extreme male brain to find their niche and for us to acknowledge their value. They should not feel the need to hide their mindblindness (as many currently do). [quoted from page 185] |
Does anyone else have the same reaction I did?
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.
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Yeah, that's why women get paid so much less. Because extreme female brains are respected so much more. Yeah.
When I was growing up (in Canada, in the 1970s), women who could do what men did (and men who were better at relationships like women) were the ones who got respect. I grew up with the message I should be ashamed of my mother for being a stay-at-home mother (even though she was happy) because she didn't have a "career". I certainly shouldn't want to be like her. I should be more like a man. I find male pronouncements on how well off women are somewhat puzzling at times.
Sorry, I just needed to vent a little. Not trying to start an argument. |
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Lene
Velociraptor
Joined: Nov 28, 2007
Posts: 422
Location: Pluto
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| Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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I think he might have a point. He was referring to brain types, not actual genders (it's just unfortunate that he named them 'male' and 'female').
You often see people bending over backwards to help the 'dumb blonde' (the systems-blind sterotype), whilst the more systemic person is less likely to get help in the areas they find difficult (involving empathy). I guess we don't tug at their heart strings enough 
But yeah... the whole 'male brain' and 'female brain' is annoying. It's outdated, as research has shown again and again that both sexes are actually quite alike  |
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LKL
Phoenix
Joined: Jul 22, 2007
Age: 32
Posts: 1116
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| Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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| a 'systems-blind' person might have a niche (trophy wife or housewife), but the fact that a niche exists does not mean that it's a good one. Mind-blind people also have a niche, though; think of the computer-programmer/gamer stereotype. Neither is necessarily what society would call 'highly successful,' but those niches do exist. |
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CanyonWind
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Joined: Sep 12, 2006
Posts: 1394
Location: West of the Great Divide
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| Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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Came here from the new topics list on the home page.
Considering the obvious and tremendous difficulties male aspies have in attempting to fit the traditional male stereotype, nobody but a complete idiot would describe asperger's as a "male brain."
Male or female, I'm afraid we're all in this together.
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EvilKimEvil
zoo-music girl
Joined: Sep 27, 2007
Posts: 3040
Location: highway to hell
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| Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 2:50 pm Post subject: |
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I think I basically have a male brain.
However, my body is very female-looking, and I don't dress or act butch. It often takes people a little while to figure out that I actually think like a guy, and that's why my friends are all guys, and I have a way with men when it comes to relationships. Overall, I think I'm pretty fortunate in this respect.  |
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poopylungstuffing
"Ultimate Creative Oddball"
Joined: Mar 09, 2007
Age: 33
Posts: 4290
Location: not otherwise specified
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| Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 6:46 am Post subject: |
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I am sorta in limbo between the two.
I don't really relate to males or females for the most part...but I would say I relate more to males if I had to choose one.
Girls seem like another species...especially really girly-girls.
What if hypotheticly  one was not good at systemising OR empathy/emotions.....
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Belfast
Vast Ambivalence
Joined: Jul 18, 2005
Age: 35
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Location: New England
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| Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 8:07 am Post subject: |
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| poopylungstuffing wrote: | | What if hypotheticly :? one was not good at systemising OR empathy/emotions..... :roll: |
Non-hypothetically, on Baron-Cohen's quizzes, I got very low scores on both the EQ and SQ. My NT boyfriend got high scores on both. What does any of that really mean/explain ?
My issue is with B-C's tests, I don't consider them diagnostic nor convincing as to the accuracy/validity/relevance of his ideas about what ASD's are. I have empathic functions-and also systemizing features-but not in the simplistic/narrow ways he defines them.
Not to mention, his notions don't even touch on presence of sensory hypersensitivity (why is it like this for me ?). Possible exposure to testosterone (B-C's idea) tells me nothing about that-and there are plenty more mysteries within the ASD experience.
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Anemone
Phoenix
Joined: Mar 18, 2008
Age: 43
Posts: 829
Location: Vancouver, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 11:15 am Post subject: |
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| Belfast wrote: | | poopylungstuffing wrote: | | What if hypotheticly one was not good at systemising OR empathy/emotions..... |
Non-hypothetically, on Baron-Cohen's quizzes, I got very low scores on both the EQ and SQ. My NT boyfriend got high scores on both. What does any of that really mean/explain ? |
That is funny. Low on systemizing??? OMG, you must not be autistic! (kidding)
| Belfast wrote: | | My issue is with B-C's tests, I don't consider them diagnostic nor convincing as to the accuracy/validity/relevance of his ideas about what ASD's are. I have empathic functions-and also systemizing features-but not in the simplistic/narrow ways he defines them. |
I agree with you about his tests. I'm not sure about the systemizing test, since I'm not sure exactly what he's testing (it seems like a smorgasbord of stuff), but I know he's off on the EQ, and anyway, it's not a proper test until you've done factor analysis and external validity tests and he doesn't seem to have done them. |
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poopylungstuffing
"Ultimate Creative Oddball"
Joined: Mar 09, 2007
Age: 33
Posts: 4290
Location: not otherwise specified
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| Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 2:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | That is funny. Low on systemizing??? OMG, you must not be autistic! (kidding) |
(i know you are kidding...having an attack of literal thinking I guess)
I may or may not be. I have enough in common with the autistic spectrum to have upwards of 3000 posts, but I am not diagnosed.
I am an aspie according to any aspie quiz I take. It could be that I am just a severe ADDer. I have somewhat narrow obsessions, social dysfunctions, I don't drive a car, I find it near-impossible to get a job...I am emotionally on par with a teenager...I don't do eye contact, I walk on my toes...blah blah blah...
But i am still not sure whether I count as an aspie.
I will take the simon baron cohen quizagain...ok just did...I don't feel like listing my results, but I am below average on both...higher on systemizing though.
I am critical of the structure of the test as well....
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pineapple
Deinonychus
Joined: May 01, 2006
Age: 24
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Location: san francisco
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| Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 12:08 am Post subject: |
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I don't think there really are "essential sex differences in the mind". That's just me. I understand what Baron-Cohen is getting at, but I think his calling AS a symptom of "extreme male mind" is somewhat offensive to female aspies, as we tend to be invisible enough as it is. And I agree that fragmenting people across gender lines isn't helpful, we are indeed in this together.
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MR_BOGAN
Mysterios Dirty Dancer
Joined: Mar 06, 2008
Age: 30
Posts: 2037
Location: The great trailer park in the sky!
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| Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 1:15 am Post subject: |
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| pineapple wrote: | | I don't think there really are "essential sex differences in the mind". That's just me. I understand what Baron-Cohen is getting at, but I think his calling AS a symptom of "extreme male mind" is somewhat offensive to female aspies, as we tend to be invisible enough as it is. And I agree that fragmenting people across gender lines isn't helpful, we are indeed in this together. |
How is having an extreme male mind offensive to females? I thought that would be cool  |
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pineapple
Deinonychus
Joined: May 01, 2006
Age: 24
Posts: 391
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| Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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| MR_BOGAN wrote: | | pineapple wrote: | | I don't think there really are "essential sex differences in the mind". That's just me. I understand what Baron-Cohen is getting at, but I think his calling AS a symptom of "extreme male mind" is somewhat offensive to female aspies, as we tend to be invisible enough as it is. And I agree that fragmenting people across gender lines isn't helpful, we are indeed in this together. |
How is having an extreme male mind offensive to females? I thought that would be cool |
I can't speak for all women, but as far as I'm concerned, I don't want to be more like a man. I don't want to be tethered to any gender expectations at all. If it isn't cool for men to have female brains, than the reverse shouldn't apply either.
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LKL
Phoenix
Joined: Jul 22, 2007
Age: 32
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| Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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Mr Bogan-
calling it 'extreme male mind' is essentially saying that female aspies either don't exist, or we are somehow mental cross-dressers.
Not that there's anything wrong with cross-dressing, but it puts us even further outside of the statistical norm than we already are. |
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Anemone
Phoenix
Joined: Mar 18, 2008
Age: 43
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Location: Vancouver, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 10:32 pm Post subject: |
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| MR_BOGAN wrote: | | How is having an extreme male mind offensive to females? I thought that would be cool |
It is cool (maybe) if we think of it. But when a man says it, it's oppression!  Actually, it's missing the point. Plus it's probably inaccurate, even if you say "male" rather than male. I'm polishing up my critique of his book.  Anyone else want to critique it properly, too? |
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Hazelwudi
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 13, 2006
Posts: 510
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 6:49 pm Post subject: Re: male brains, female brains, and respect |
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| Anemone wrote: |
When I was growing up (in Canada, in the 1970s), women who could do what men did (and men who were better at relationships like women) were the ones who got respect. I grew up with the message I should be ashamed of my mother for being a stay-at-home mother (even though she was happy) because she didn't have a "career". I certainly shouldn't want to be like her. I should be more like a man. |
As it should be, imo. What's the problem?
Think of the traits which have traditionally been associated with each gender. Each has good points, and each has bad points, yeah?
Examples of positive feminine traits: Caring for others, communcation skills, multitasking, high attention span.
Examples of negative feminine traits: Passivity, superficiality, irrationality, overemotionality.
Examples of positive masculine traits: Logical, pragmatic, takes initiative, stands up for himself.
Examples of negative masculine traits: Obsessed with sex, egotistical, reckless, violent.
What are the phrases "typical woman" or "typical man" shorthand for, but "half-worthless (and hence defective) human being"? Instead of choosing to embody all the traits of either gender, why not choose to embody both the positive feminine traits AND the positive masculine traits, while dropping the negative traits of both? |
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