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Spokane_Girl
I would walk 500 miles and I would walk 500 more
Joined: Jul 17, 2007
Age: 23
Posts: 5211
Location: Benny & Joon town (I wish)
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 Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 2:20 am Post subject: Does anyone else think the Godwin's Law doesn't make sense? |
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Godwin's Law has never made any sense. Why does Hitler need to be discriminated and the Nazis too? Other people have killed too, eg. Bundy, Dahmar, Hussain, Bin Laden, McVeigh and it's not offensive to mention them. So why discriminate against Hitler? Sure he killed over 6,000,000 Jews and also killed handicapped people and the crippled. He tried to wipe out a certain population and only wanted people with blonde hair and blue eyes (if I remember correctly). He did genocide but I still see the Godwin's Law as pointless.
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Orwell
Outer Party Member
Joined: Aug 09, 2007
Age: 19
Posts: 5065
Location: Room 101
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| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 2:27 am Post subject: |
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Come over to PPR sometime. Hitler and the Nazis are sort of the archetype of pure evil in the modern world, so the ultimate insult is to try to connect some person or idea you are trying to discredit with the Nazis. Godwin's Law simply states that on Internet forums, eventually someone will compare their opponent in an argument to Hitler, and this prediction holds extremely well for PPR.
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beau99
B.S. Detector
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Joined: Nov 06, 2007
Age: 22
Posts: 1308
Location: A cruel H*llhole called Earth.
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| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 2:47 am Post subject: |
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Godwin's Law makes PERFECT sense.
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My site: Thoughts of an Autistic (updated May 20, 2008)
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PilotPirx
Deinonychus
Joined: May 09, 2008
Age: 38
Posts: 355
Location: Amsterdam, NL
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| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 4:37 am Post subject: |
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Godwin's Law only states, that the longer some kind of discussion goes, the the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.
This doesn't necessarily say, that Hitler was any different from any other dictator like Stalin, Mao or whoever.
And he is absolutely right, since you're more likely to be named a "fashist" then a "hardliner communist" or a "predator capitalist" or a "Senator McCarthy" or whatever.
And he is true about another point: Overusing this comparison that way robs it of it's impact and trivializes fashism.
True enough, that there where others. But Hitler made a special kind of impact, maybe because it was the first time, that mass murder was put on an industrial level.
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2ukenkerl
Phoenix
Joined: Jul 20, 2007
Posts: 5235
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| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 8:31 am Post subject: |
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| I think the reason is simply because many DO consider Hitler to be the ULTIMATE in political, ethical, and religious perversion and long discussions tend to head that way. They say you should never talk about sex, religion, or politics because they are incendiary issues. |
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Macbeth
Thane of Bar and Cellar
Joined: May 28, 2007
Posts: 1977
Location: UK Doncaster
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| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 10:08 am Post subject: |
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Its only a matter of lowest common denominator. There are thousands of reasonable examples throughout recent and ancient history of totalitarian states run by idiosyncratic and murderous men. Polpot and the Khmer Rouge perhaps.. the killing fields of cambodia, wherein lay the bodies of teachers, intellectuals, and anyone else who had, or was, a problem. Except that hes not as "popular" as hitler. Not as well known, and not quite as high up the scale of grandiose genocides. So when someone says "you are comparable to Polpot at his worst", the poster can not be wholly sure the reference has sunk in. So instead they go for the more obvious "hitler" reference. Its mostly understood, and is more likely to have an effect in the popular conscious.
Godwins law is accurate, that is true. But its not Godwins law that is the problem. Its people who erroneously believe that replying to a post that mentions the Nazis with the phrase "Godwins Law" somehow constitutes a counter-argument. Just because someone uses the most obvious reference, does not invalidate their point. Some people DO act like a bunch of sturmtruppen, whether they be on the net or in real life.
Internet convention be damned. If you cant think of a better counter than rote repetition of a throwaway internet observation, then you are no more than the misbegotten progeny of some hideous hybrid of monkey and parrot, incapable of independent thought. Not for you to stand on the shoulders of giants and achieve even greater things, but rather stand behind them, and sneer, shaking your fist in meek approbation at whomsoever the giant is arguing with, using them like a meat-shield to prevent your own pathetic arguments being shredded.
People who use Godwins law are LIKE HITLER AND THE NAZIS...
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Chewbockers
Hummingbird
Joined: Jun 29, 2008
Posts: 21
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| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 10:30 am Post subject: |
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| I do think it's silly for others to try and counter an argument by invoking Godwin's Law. It was probably funny the first few times but now it's just old. |
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ThatRedHairedGrrl
Deinonychus
Joined: May 11, 2008
Posts: 365
Location: Totally confusing all the passing piranhas
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| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 12:32 pm Post subject: |
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It annoys me when people invoke this comparison to say 'You lose!' in an argument.
The implication is that comparing any form of discrimination or ill-treatment of a given group to what the Nazis did to the Jews, gays, Romanies, the disabled and so forth, is crass overkill. And granted, comparing most forms of discrimination these days to putting people in gas chambers is overkill.
But people forget that it didn't start with gas chambers. It started with a subtle harnessing of people's existing hatred of people who for one reason or another, didn't fit in and could be blamed for society's problems.
There are many groups of people in society today - I won't name any specifically, I'm sure we can all think of examples - for whom many people's hatred is already out of proportion to any actual threat they pose. This is useful for governments; it gives them someone they can get the public to blame rather than admit they don't have a handle on the problems. The wrong kind of government could, conceivably, take it further. But not without a population who'd go along with it.
Stanley Milgram's famous series of experiments, to find out how far people would obey orders, was made specifically to find out whether the willingness to take that to its horrific extreme was a peculiarity of the German character, or whether it was something anyone could be persuaded to do. He found the latter to be true. Given what they feel is a good enough reason, anyone could torture or kill another human being. Or turn a blind eye while someone else did, on the grounds that it was for the common good and those [insert name of minority] were a threat to national security, a drain on the economy, you name it.
So, the point about Godwin's Law is not the danger that anyone is already acting like the Nazis, but that there are people around who do sometimes act in the way ordinary German people did to make the things the Nazis did possible. And that behavior does need to be pointed out and condemned.
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DeaconBlues
They call Alabama the Crimson Tide - call me...
Joined: Apr 22, 2007
Posts: 1675
Location: Earth, mostly
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| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Macbeth wrote: | Its only a matter of lowest common denominator. There are thousands of reasonable examples throughout recent and ancient history of totalitarian states run by idiosyncratic and murderous men. Polpot and the Khmer Rouge perhaps.. the killing fields of cambodia, wherein lay the bodies of teachers, intellectuals, and anyone else who had, or was, a problem. Except that hes not as "popular" as hitler. Not as well known, and not quite as high up the scale of grandiose genocides. So when someone says "you are comparable to Polpot at his worst", the poster can not be wholly sure the reference has sunk in. So instead they go for the more obvious "hitler" reference. Its mostly understood, and is more likely to have an effect in the popular conscious.
Godwins law is accurate, that is true. But its not Godwins law that is the problem. Its people who erroneously believe that replying to a post that mentions the Nazis with the phrase "Godwins Law" somehow constitutes a counter-argument. Just because someone uses the most obvious reference, does not invalidate their point. Some people DO act like a bunch of sturmtruppen, whether they be on the net or in real life.
Internet convention be damned. If you cant think of a better counter than rote repetition of a throwaway internet observation, then you are no more than the misbegotten progeny of some hideous hybrid of monkey and parrot, incapable of independent thought. Not for you to stand on the shoulders of giants and achieve even greater things, but rather stand behind them, and sneer, shaking your fist in meek approbation at whomsoever the giant is arguing with, using them like a meat-shield to prevent your own pathetic arguments being shredded.
People who use Godwins law are LIKE HITLER AND THE NAZIS...
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Godwin's Law! You lose!  
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If it can't be expressed in figures, it is not science; it is opinion. - Robert A. Heinlein |
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gwynfryn
Deinonychus
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Joined: Aug 22, 2004
Posts: 378
Location: France
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| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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| 2ukenkerl wrote: | | I think the reason is simply because many DO consider Hitler to be the ULTIMATE in political, ethical, and religious perversion and long discussions tend to head that way. They say you should never talk about sex, religion, or politics because they are incendiary issues. |
I was hoping to see a statement of Godwin's law, but I think I can figure it out; In different words, if you see someone manipulating society for their own advancement, and you compare them to Hitler, you lose the argument? I'm not impressed!
Though he's not one of my favourites, Camus was spot on when he pointed out that, it's not money, but the quest for status, that is the real source of all evil!
Hitler was no exception, just a pathetically trite version of the kind of people who usually end up in charge of everything (because they are born sure they should be in charge...) and you know what? They usually have a gift for persuading "normal" people to do as they say!
They also work hard to get control of the media (who ridicule "conspiracy theories" for example...so every conspiracy theory must be wrong, huh?) and bombard people with influencial crap which discourages them from thinking for themselves; exit autistics!
Why try to "cure" autism? Because it's a trait of real autistics to think independently, assess the evidence, reach their own conclusions...definitely not something the control freaks want the population to practise! |
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cyb0rg
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Joined: Jun 29, 2008
Posts: 56
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| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 6:36 pm Post subject: |
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| 2ukenkerl wrote: | | I think the reason is simply because many DO consider Hitler to be the ULTIMATE in political, ethical, and religious perversion and long discussions tend to head that way. They say you should never talk about sex, religion, or politics because they are incendiary issues. |
I don't think it is so much that he was the most evil, vile, sickest, violent person ever, but only the most recent. |
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gwynfryn
Deinonychus
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Joined: Aug 22, 2004
Posts: 378
Location: France
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| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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| cyb0rg wrote: | | 2ukenkerl wrote: | | I think the reason is simply because many DO consider Hitler to be the ULTIMATE in political, ethical, and religious perversion and long discussions tend to head that way. They say you should never talk about sex, religion, or politics because they are incendiary issues. |
I don't think it is so much that he was the most evil, vile, sickest, violent person ever, but only the most recent. |
You don't consider Tudjic, Slobbo, Bush and Rumpsfeld in the same vein? |
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pakled
"Bless his Heart"
Joined: Nov 13, 2007
Age: 51
Posts: 3993
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| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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well, the problem is, is that invoking Nazis is supposed to be a 'final solution'. Once invoked, no matter what the premise, the opposing side is considered to have no recourse, no restatement, since Hitler and the Nazis were evil incarnate, then so too is the person opposing your viewpoint. The comparison is supposed to deny any counter. You've won, totally, they've lost, totally.
That's as tiresome to me as any Godwin's Law. Might as well tie it to Sturgeon's Law; that 90% of anything is crap... |
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cyb0rg
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Joined: Jun 29, 2008
Posts: 56
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| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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| gwynfryn wrote: | | cyb0rg wrote: | | 2ukenkerl wrote: | | I think the reason is simply because many DO consider Hitler to be the ULTIMATE in political, ethical, and religious perversion and long discussions tend to head that way. They say you should never talk about sex, religion, or politics because they are incendiary issues. |
I don't think it is so much that he was the most evil, vile, sickest, violent person ever, but only the most recent. |
You don't consider Tudjic, Slobbo, Bush and Rumpsfeld in the same vein? |
Bush who? |
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twoshots
Boltzmann Brain
Joined: Nov 27, 2007
Posts: 2352
Location: NJ
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| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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Godwin's Law just describes the incredibly unimaginative and uninformed argument templates that people use. And is just a statement about the way the internet works. Seriously, check it out.
Reductio ad Hitlerum is a common logical fallacy. If you invoke 1) Hitler, or 2) For The Children, you lose by default in my eyes.
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