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iamnotaparakeet
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 Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 3:23 pm Post subject: Predestination |
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Feel free to post here about the lack of free will. Including you Fnord.
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ToadOfSteel
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| Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 4:11 pm Post subject: |
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| There was a reason I didn't start a thread like this... |
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greenblue
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| Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 4:21 pm Post subject: Re: Predestination |
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| iamnotaparakeet wrote: | | Feel free to post here about the lack of free will. Including you Fnord. |
How does it work? Does this rule out free will completely?
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Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge of Truth and Knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the gods. ~Einstein. |
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greenblue
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| Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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| ToadOfSteel wrote: | | There was a reason I didn't start a thread like this... |
"The worst thing about religion" part 2 
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Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge of Truth and Knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the gods. ~Einstein. |
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Awesomelyglorious
Destroyer of worlds, reaver of souls
Joined: Dec 18, 2005
Posts: 6393
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| Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 4:45 pm Post subject: Re: Predestination |
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| greenblue wrote: | | iamnotaparakeet wrote: | | Feel free to post here about the lack of free will. Including you Fnord. |
How does it work? Does this rule out free will completely? |
Predestination to me seems to be the notion that all events are set before they happen. I do think it rules out free will, because logically you cannot choose anything but what you have been predestined to choose. At the very least, this removes the notion of being able to choose otherwise, which is sometimes regarded as important for ethics.
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Awesomelyglorious
Destroyer of worlds, reaver of souls
Joined: Dec 18, 2005
Posts: 6393
Location: United States
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| Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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| greenblue wrote: | | ToadOfSteel wrote: | | There was a reason I didn't start a thread like this... |
"The worst thing about religion" part 2 |
You are right, we need more personal attacks, sweeping dismissals, and attempts to discredit somebody by looking at their use of the language! HURRY UP PEOPLE!! WE NEED THE MADNESS TO START!!!
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TallyMan
Ghost in the machine
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Age: 148
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| Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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I have to ask what exactly is free will?
Every action I take, either consciously or unconsciously is based upon a mental calculation weighing alternative courses or action and then taking the course of action most consistent with my mental conditioning. The mental conditioning covers a whole set of rules or behaviour responses picked up from my culture, religious beliefs, logic, sense of empathy, law and punishment etc.
In essence only different from a computer program in as much as many magnitudes more information and rules are applied in determining the output.
What exactly is free will under these conditions?
I could take a random action, the equivalent of tossing a mental coin, but I see no free will involved in that either.
At best I seem to be simply a witness to my own actions. |
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greenblue
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| Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 4:59 pm Post subject: Re: Predestination |
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| Awesomelyglorious wrote: | | greenblue wrote: | | iamnotaparakeet wrote: | | Feel free to post here about the lack of free will. Including you Fnord. |
How does it work? Does this rule out free will completely? |
Predestination to me seems to be the notion that all events are set before they happen. I do think it rules out free will, because logically you cannot choose anything but what you have been predestined to choose. At the very least, this removes the notion of being able to choose otherwise, which is sometimes regarded as important for ethics. |
I see that predestination is a religious concept, which it seems strange about God having determined the universe, which it would suggest that the whole humanity was meant to suffer and decay in sin, it would been part of God's plan, in that case, which contradicts with things I have been thought in Church.
Without having thought about that principle, I have wondered about the lack of free will, when it comes to prophecies claimed by christians to have fulfilled or are to come, especially when it comes to Nostradamus, although not every christian may believe in his profecy, although some do, thinking about Nostradamus, it suggests in my view, that it conflicts with the notion of free will, as probably non-existent.
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Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge of Truth and Knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the gods. ~Einstein.
Last edited by greenblue on Wed Aug 20, 2008 5:02 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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iamnotaparakeet
Alpha Parrot
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| Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 5:01 pm Post subject: |
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Hence TallyMan, you find robots attractive? 
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Awesomelyglorious
Destroyer of worlds, reaver of souls
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| Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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| iamnotaparakeet wrote: | | Hence TallyMan, you find robots attractive? |
Oh goodness, who doesn't!!!!!
Sexy!!!
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Awesomelyglorious
Destroyer of worlds, reaver of souls
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| Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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| TallyMan wrote: | | I have to ask what exactly is free will? |
To be honest, I don't know. I mean, if taken in the libertarian sense, then it has to be acausal, and if it is acausal, then where does the choice come from? How is it not random?
| Quote: | | What exactly is free will under these conditions? |
It could be argued from a compatibilist view, that your free will is your ability to act upon your own desires as opposed to somebody else's, but then there come issues in defining coercion under that view.
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TallyMan
Ghost in the machine
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| Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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| iamnotaparakeet wrote: | | Hence TallyMan, you find robots attractive? |
Seriously. I would like to know what others think free will actually is? It sounds like a concept that we all hold dear but which nobody has really thought about. It sounds like a contradiction in terms to me. |
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Orwell
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Age: 19
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| Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 5:06 pm Post subject: Re: Predestination |
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| greenblue wrote: | | iamnotaparakeet wrote: | | Feel free to post here about the lack of free will. Including you Fnord. |
How does it work? Does this rule out free will completely? |
I believe so, though others have tried to reconcile Predestination and free will. However, I would argue that, since they are unable to resolve Newcomb's Paradox, such a set of views is internally inconsistent and should be discarded.
Anyways, I have yet to see a real definition for free will. It is not causal choices based on a number of factors such as upbringing, genetic factors, value systems, etc. Such decisions as those should be regarded as determined by prior conditions. And if decisions are not based on a prior cause (and how can something be acausal?) then they must simply be random, which most will not regard as free will. After all, randomness isn't freedom. What then is free will?
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TallyMan
Ghost in the machine
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Age: 148
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| Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Awesomelyglorious wrote: | | To be honest, I don't know. I mean, if taken in the libertarian sense, then it has to be acausal, and if it is acausal, then where does the choice come from? How is it not random? |
Exactly my point. Free will may just be a mental concept, a plaything of the mind but with no substance. |
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greenblue
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| Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 5:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Awesomelyglorious wrote: | | TallyMan wrote: | | I have to ask what exactly is free will? |
To be honest, I don't know. I mean, if taken in the libertarian sense, then it has to be acausal, and if it is acausal, then where does the choice come from? How is it not random? |
Yeah, some argue that random-will is that what we perceive as free-will, And others, in the case of predestination or determinism, that what we perceive to have been made out of our own free-will, was determined to happen.
I ask, does time has to do with free-will? are they really connected? if so, how?
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