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Quatermass
Conflicted Within
Joined: Apr 28, 2006
Posts: 18717
Location: Only a plank between me and perdition...
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 Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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| ShadesOfMe wrote: | | alex wrote: | | The mods are human just like everyone else here. If you expect them to be above that, you're going to be disappointed. Anyone who's a moderator is going to have a ton of people who disagree with their actions because it's impossible to satisfy everyone; especially in situations where one person's satisfaction would be another member's dissatisfaction. |
No one is expecting them to be above that. what we're expecting is that they don't treat us like sh** and harass us. Being mods does not mean they get to be abusive and nasty. |
Neither does it mean YOU can treat us like sh** and harass us if you don't like us.
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Dox47
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Joined: Jan 29, 2008
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| Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 9:05 pm Post subject: |
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I think that some of the members here are frustrated by what they see as a lack of accountability by the moderators. Regardless of whether you think they are doing a good job or not, as a member of this site there is not a whole lot you can do about it one way or the other, especially when they seem sort of cliquish. I've noticed a sort of "use vs them" vibe coming off of several of the mods posting in this thread, and I'm sure that is contributing to the unease that some members are feeling. When it seems like the mods will always back each other against the users regardless of the circumstances, it makes us feel like we have no recourse if we should have a conflict with a moderator. We have no say in how they are chosen, no say in their conduct, and no say in removing any that prove unsatisfactory. The forum is supposed to exist for the benefit of the community, not for the gratification of the moderators, but I don't think the current system reflects that. No one expects perfection, but by definition a forum moderator is supposed to be first and foremost an exemplary member of the community, and frankly I think a few of our mods have been a bit prickly of late.
That being said, I understand a lot of where the mods are coming from on this thread. Especially early on in the thread it was like the McCarthy hearing in here, all this talk of trolls running rampant on WP without much substance to back them up, the aforementioned accusations of sock puppetry, etc. I definitely would not want to be a moderator on this forum, too much trouble for too little pay off, my question is why are there only four? It seems that being overloaded is a considerable handicap to our mods, and that decreasing their workload would considerably improve the quality of the moderation on the board. Having some new blood might also help with the problems I mentioned above, with the perception that the regular user has no recourse against an entrenched mod. I'm trying to be constructive here, since so much here seems to have turned to mudslinging.
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sinsboldly
Phoenix
Joined: Nov 22, 2006
Age: 59
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| Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 9:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Dox47 wrote: | I think that some of the members here are frustrated by what they see as a lack of accountability by the moderators. Regardless of whether you think they are doing a good job or not, as a member of this site there is not a whole lot you can do about it one way or the other, especially when they seem sort of cliquish. I've noticed a sort of "use vs them" vibe coming off of several of the mods posting in this thread, and I'm sure that is contributing to the unease that some members are feeling. When it seems like the mods will always back each other against the users regardless of the circumstances, it makes us feel like we have no recourse if we should have a conflict with a moderator. We have no say in how they are chosen, no say in their conduct, and no say in removing any that prove unsatisfactory. The forum is supposed to exist for the benefit of the community, not for the gratification of the moderators, but I don't think the current system reflects that. No one expects perfection, but by definition a forum moderator is supposed to be first and foremost an exemplary member of the community, and frankly I think a few of our mods have been a bit prickly of late.
That being said, I understand a lot of where the mods are coming from on this thread. Especially early on in the thread it was like the McCarthy hearing in here, all this talk of trolls running rampant on WP without much substance to back them up, the aforementioned accusations of sock puppetry, etc. I definitely would not want to be a moderator on this forum, too much trouble for too little pay off, my question is why are there only four? It seems that being overloaded is a considerable handicap to our mods, and that decreasing their workload would considerably improve the quality of the moderation on the board. Having some new blood might also help with the problems I mentioned above, with the perception that the regular user has no recourse against an entrenched mod. I'm trying to be constructive here, since so much here seems to have turned to mudslinging. |
Actually there are more than four, but we are the ones that show up regularly.
Merle |
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Quatermass
Conflicted Within
Joined: Apr 28, 2006
Posts: 18717
Location: Only a plank between me and perdition...
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| Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 10:09 pm Post subject: |
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The reason why there is an 'us vs them' mentality is because a number of people here are either
a) Dissatisfied with the service we mods are providing, despite the fact that we are volunteers, have lives outside WP, and that we need to consider several viewpoints, not just one.
b) Antiauthoritarians who just love to provoke authority into attacking them so that they are validated in their pathetic viewpoints.
c) From coloured perception, think that we are actually megalomaniacs who get off on bullying people.
People in category b) need to get a grip on reality, and people in category a), we're trying to do our best, okay?
People in category c), well, I am not consciously a megalomaniac. I am doing this work for Alex and for WP in general. When people question my integrity, it hurts, and when people say I abuse them, it hurts also, because I thought I was doing what was right. When the integrity of the mods is challenged, I get angry, because I know, at heart, I am a man of integrity, and I take it personally.
I will not place those who posted in this thread into these categories.
As for your assertion that I have been prickly of late, Dox47, it is personal reasons. Specifically educational ones.
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MrMark
Abstract Data Type
Joined: Jul 04, 2006
Age: 51
Posts: 10132
Location: Tallahassee, FL
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| Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 10:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Dox47 wrote: | | I think that some of the members here are frustrated by what they see as a lack of accountability by the moderators. |
Moderators are accountable to Alex, not the membership. Any member who does not enjoy this free service is free to walk away.
| Dox47 wrote: | | ...by definition a forum moderator is supposed to be first and foremost an exemplary member of the community. |
I agree, but I think this view is not universally shared by all members of the moderation team. Moderators are subject to peer review, but retain their autonomy.
| Dox47 wrote: | | ...all this talk of trolls running rampant on WP without much substance to back them up, the aforementioned accusations of sock puppetry, etc. |
There are, what do we call them, provocative agents. Some of them have grown bored with common trolling and seek to troll mods. I'm not saying that the OP or anyone else in particular is doing this, only that there are such people.
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"The cordial quality of pear or plum
Rises as gladly in the single tree
As in the whole orchards resonant with bees."
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ShadesOfMe
Bunny Pirate on the seven seas!
Joined: Jul 01, 2004
Age: 18
Posts: 18355
Location: California
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| Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 12:31 am Post subject: |
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| Quatermass wrote: | | ShadesOfMe wrote: | | alex wrote: | | The mods are human just like everyone else here. If you expect them to be above that, you're going to be disappointed. Anyone who's a moderator is going to have a ton of people who disagree with their actions because it's impossible to satisfy everyone; especially in situations where one person's satisfaction would be another member's dissatisfaction. |
No one is expecting them to be above that. what we're expecting is that they don't treat us like sh** and harass us. Being mods does not mean they get to be abusive and nasty. |
Neither does it mean YOU can treat us like sh** and harass us if you don't like us. |
I haven't treated anyone like sh** or harassed them. I have only told them that they have no right to treat us the way they were treating us.
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Triangular_Trees
What is right is sometimes found on the left.
Joined: Jul 18, 2007
Posts: 2053
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| Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 1:25 am Post subject: |
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Any moderator that doesn't feel accountable to the membership of WP has no business being a moderator.
Alex trusts that the moderators he chooses will act responsibily and according to WP rules. You can't do that without being accountable to members.
After all what did alex tell you "Break any rules you want and behave as badly as you please." or "Respect the rules of WP to make WP a better place for all members." If its the latter, you are accountable to WP members, regardless of who is higher than you. I find it difficult to believe that Alex would have given you the former is advice on how to treat your moderator position
Just like the Vice president of a company is accountable to everyone in the company, not just the president. You cannot be accountable to those above you, without first being accountable to those below you when your job involves a position of authority over those below you
| Quote: | | Some of them have grown bored with common trolling and seek to troll mods |
Or maybe they are people who are getting fed up with seeing the same trolls posts removed from threads by unknown moderator, without the troll ever being warned or banned, than having the same particular moderator claim the trolls posts were never there in the first place, that user has never trolled. The same moderator erases names of trolls from posts at the same time he antagonizes people for not posting names of trolls, (same page of the thread even) and if anyone speaks up against this, or any other conern regarding the workings of WP, the same moderator in question will write lies about them and otherwise harass on the board in order to keep the issue from being discussed. Meanwhile no mod cares enough about moderating to say anything about how inappropriate it is for a moderator to engage in trolling and slanderous attacks, even though their job requires them to warn ANY user who engages in such behavior and one would have to be a complete idiot to review the evidence and not know beyond any possible doubt that said moderator was intentionally posting lies to attack users bringing up concerns and shirking his duties as a moderator at the same time
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Did I post an attack on you? If so, please read this before making a reply
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt74894.html |
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Quatermass
Conflicted Within
Joined: Apr 28, 2006
Posts: 18717
Location: Only a plank between me and perdition...
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| Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 1:53 am Post subject: |
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lau did nothing wrong, as far as I can tell. I actually went back and reviewed his posts that supposedly caused offence, and there was little wrong with his posts, barring that fantasized bigots and trolls remark, although in some cases, it's not too far off the mark, as I see too many quixotic members here who complain about the least thing, because they think they're contributing.
TT, I am frankly sick of you. You appear to hide behind the fact that you get seizures where you become angry or violent or whatever. When you have these seizures, stay off WP. Consider other users, if you can during these seizures. Don't come on WP at all during these episodes, for all of our sakes, including your own.
If you have a valid complaint about the modship, PM or email Alex, with examples. If he says we're doing nothing wrong, then let that be the end of it, please?
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-Frederich Nietzche |
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Quatermass
Conflicted Within
Joined: Apr 28, 2006
Posts: 18717
Location: Only a plank between me and perdition...
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| Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 2:23 am Post subject: |
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| Triangular_Trees wrote: |
| Quote: | | TT, I am frankly sick of you. You appear to hide behind the fact that you get seizures where you become angry or violent or whatever. When you have these seizures, stay off WP. Consider other users, if you can during these seizures. Don't come on WP at all during these episodes, for all of our sakes, including your own. |
Show one instance, just one, where I said "I did this because I'm having seizures." If you can't do that, than don't even consider saying I'm hiding behind my seizures.
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http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt74894.html You put that down, claiming that if you said anything offensive, it would be because you had a seizure.
And you've already stated in this thread that you've gone off your meds because of it causing a rash.
I responded to your single PM to me, about princess_1989's inappropriate comment in your Haven post, promptly, so your insistence that all mods do not help is astounding, not to mention the fact that, as I said before, smacks of ingratitude.
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt76221.html
So people can see. I responded within an hour of you sending the PM (about 1:40pm, according to my PM time). I forget how long I responded upon receipt of the PM, but remember this next time you ask for my help.
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Dox47
Phoenix
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Joined: Jan 29, 2008
Posts: 1348
Location: Seattle Area
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| Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 3:18 am Post subject: |
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| sinsboldly wrote: |
Actually there are more than four, but we are the ones that show up regularly.
Merle |
Oh, well I bring it up since I've heard the moderator workload mentioned several times when people have asked about why a concern went unanswered or an (alleged) troll was allowed to run amok. Do you think that adding one or more regular or part time moderators would be a good idea? Or perhaps giving certain regular users areas of responsibility to keep an eye on, and pass any real trouble along to the regular moderators? No one else seems to be actually suggesting anything, so I'm just throwing ideas out there.
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An Unorthodox Paradox
Seattle area Aspies can meet me here:
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Dox47
Phoenix
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Joined: Jan 29, 2008
Posts: 1348
Location: Seattle Area
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| Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 3:35 am Post subject: |
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| Quatermass wrote: | The reason why there is an 'us vs them' mentality is because a number of people here are either
a) Dissatisfied with the service we mods are providing, despite the fact that we are volunteers, have lives outside WP, and that we need to consider several viewpoints, not just one.
b) Antiauthoritarians who just love to provoke authority into attacking them so that they are validated in their pathetic viewpoints.
c) From coloured perception, think that we are actually megalomaniacs who get off on bullying people.
People in category b) need to get a grip on reality, and people in category a), we're trying to do our best, okay?
People in category c), well, I am not consciously a megalomaniac. I am doing this work for Alex and for WP in general. When people question my integrity, it hurts, and when people say I abuse them, it hurts also, because I thought I was doing what was right. When the integrity of the mods is challenged, I get angry, because I know, at heart, I am a man of integrity, and I take it personally.
I will not place those who posted in this thread into these categories.
As for your assertion that I have been prickly of late, Dox47, it is personal reasons. Specifically educational ones. |
I think part of the problem is that you are responding to people who are knee-jerk anti authority by further trying to assert your authority, and thus inflaming situations that might otherwise solve themselves. For example, when you come stomping into PPR proclaiming yourself the new sheriff in town and that we're all going to fall into line or else, what did you think the reaction was going to be? Are you really surprised that your motives and integrity are being questioned? A lighter touch would have gotten you a lot further, and earned you a lot more respect, as opposed to the full scale revolt you've provoked down there. I've noticed that you toned it down a bit and added a poll after some of the regulars really started in on you, I hope that is a sign that you realize the mistake made in the initial foray.
I really do understand that you are in sort of an ugly position for which you receive no compensation, but I also believe you need to be able to accept criticism as part of being a moderator. Attacking people for being ungrateful for your services really isn't helpful, and just further inflames everyone. If your academic work really is so stressful right now, maybe you ought to consider cutting back to part time moderating? I mean nothing personal by the suggestion, but it would really suck to have your school work suffer for the sake of an unpaid forum moderator job.
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An Unorthodox Paradox
Seattle area Aspies can meet me here:
www.meetup.com/squarepegs |
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Dox47
Phoenix
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Joined: Jan 29, 2008
Posts: 1348
Location: Seattle Area
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| Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 4:07 am Post subject: |
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| MrMark wrote: | | Dox47 wrote: | | I think that some of the members here are frustrated by what they see as a lack of accountability by the moderators. |
Moderators are accountable to Alex, not the membership. Any member who does not enjoy this free service is free to walk away.
| Dox47 wrote: | | ...by definition a forum moderator is supposed to be first and foremost an exemplary member of the community. |
I agree, but I think this view is not universally shared by all members of the moderation team. Moderators are subject to peer review, but retain their autonomy.
| Dox47 wrote: | | ...all this talk of trolls running rampant on WP without much substance to back them up, the aforementioned accusations of sock puppetry, etc. |
There are, what do we call them, provocative agents. Some of them have grown bored with common trolling and seek to troll mods. I'm not saying that the OP or anyone else in particular is doing this, only that there are such people. |
I'm a little disconcerted by this response MrMark, it sort of reiterates the vibe I've been getting from the moderators in general lately, which as you can probably tell has been on my mind. What I'm referring to is this "WP, love it or leave it" sentiment, and this is not the first time I've seen almost these exact words from you, though not addressed to me. I understand that this is a private forum owned by a private individual, and that he can rule it however he so chooses, but I've always been under the impression that this site was created to serve the needs of the autistic community. Was I wrong about that? Your purpose as a moderator is to help manage this site in a manner that best serves that community, in effect the members of this board are your customers, without them you have no purpose. Yet you take a dictatorial tone, "we are not accountable to you, you don't get to question our judgment, if you don't like it you can leave". What if everyone took your advice? That the board could be run as an autocratic dictatorship doesn't meant that it should be run as such, I doubt it would enjoy nearly the popularity that it currently does.
I happen to like this place quite a bit, which is why I'm speaking up when I see something that I don't happen to like so much, because I always think things can be better. I don't see how a little more transparency and civility on the part of the moderators would at all compromise the running of the site, and they would go a long way towards curbing some of the complaints that have been popping up in this thread and elsewhere.
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An Unorthodox Paradox
Seattle area Aspies can meet me here:
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MrMark
Abstract Data Type
Joined: Jul 04, 2006
Age: 51
Posts: 10132
Location: Tallahassee, FL
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| Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 8:42 am Post subject: |
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I appreciate your concerns, but I stand by the sentiment.
My first principle of moderation is that this site should be run the way Alex wants it. Among on-line autistic communities, this is probably the most highly regulated. Nevertheless, members are allowed to discuss almost anything they want. Moderators cannot allow themselves to be swayed by the opinions of flatterers or detractors or the masses. Yet no individual always knows what’s best, and for that reason we have peer review. Peer review necessarily occurs behind the scenes. QM’s recent behavior has been discussed. I could share that discussion, but immediately everybody’s going to weigh in with an opinion, and quite frankly, we aren’t interested in the opinions of the membership when it come to moderation. We are interested in the opinions of our peers, the only people who can truly appreciate how difficult this job can be. Yes, we take a “love it or leave it” attitude, and guess what, people don’t leave. This is still the largest community of its type. If this community is not serving an individual’s needs, perhaps one of the other, less regulated communities would be a better fit for them.
We receive what feels like twice as much criticism from the membership as praise. A moderator from one of those other, less regulated sites recently contacted me to express admiration for the work we do here. It was nice, but as with all praise and criticism, we take it with a grain of salt.
_________________
"The cordial quality of pear or plum
Rises as gladly in the single tree
As in the whole orchards resonant with bees."
- Emerson |
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sinsboldly
Phoenix
Joined: Nov 22, 2006
Age: 59
Posts: 14254
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| Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 9:30 am Post subject: |
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| Dox47 wrote: | | sinsboldly wrote: |
Actually there are more than four, but we are the ones that show up regularly.
Merle |
~snip~ Do you think that adding one or more regular or part time moderators would be a good idea? Or perhaps giving certain regular users areas of responsibility to keep an eye on, and pass any real trouble along to the regular moderators? . |
That is what the others are there for, however we still are the only ones that show up regularly. Aspies are notorious for not wanting to be ragged on or the focal point of conflict, and for a couple of weeks now, the only 'real trouble' has been focused in this thread.
Merle |
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sinsboldly
Phoenix
Joined: Nov 22, 2006
Age: 59
Posts: 14254
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| Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 10:05 am Post subject: |
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| Triangular_Trees wrote: | If I make a post attacking you for something that never happened please know that its not intentional. I have no control over it or what I am saying. I have seizures that cause me to lash out and attack people. (these verbal attacks are a major improvement from the ones I had as a child where I went around chasing people with a garden weasal while threatening to kill them). The best thing to do is nothing if you are my target (if you aren't my target feel free to immediately send me a message letting me know I seem to be angry for no reason.Just realize that criticizing me for my behavior at the same time will likely cause me to give you a very detailed list of why the person in question deserves everything I am saying) It is important that I am made aware of these remarks because I cannot tell that I am having such a seizure while it is happening, and I may have no memory of engaging in the conversation once the seizure has passed. So I need your help to know if I need to contact my doctor because my medicine isn't working as it should be.
~snip~
I feel it important to warn you of this is I was just banned from another website for this behavior that I have no control over. I was convinced I had valid reason for my anger - even quoted and re-read the very offensive message I was referring to several times. I thought the re-reading it many times throughout the day meant I couldn't possibly be misinterpreting what was said as I read the same message every time. But when I looked over it the next day the message was not only Not demeaning people like me, it was supporting what I had said on the issue.
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt74894.html
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Your conduct on WP and by virtue of me not being one of the people you are attacking prompts me to let you know that you need to contact your doctor because your medication is not working as it should be.
I am sorry for your issues, TT, however you must control yourself while on WrongPlanet. Please remain off of WrongPlanet until your equilibrium has been restored.
Merle
Last edited by sinsboldly on Mon Oct 20, 2008 10:24 am; edited 1 time in total |
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