Rjaye
Phoenix
Joined: Nov 05, 2006
Posts: 903
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 Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 10:16 pm Post subject: |
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| That's a hell of a way to get out of paying taxes. OUCH. |
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pandd
Phoenix
Joined: Jul 16, 2006
Posts: 2582
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| Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 10:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Fnord wrote: | | Mage wrote: | | The doctor should have his license taken away. It was just irresponsible. If this were any other country, he would have been harshly disciplined for putting in more than 3 embryos. |
But in America, we have a thing called "Reproductive Choice"! This means that women are free to choose however many babies they want, whether by whelping an entire litter through in vitro fertilization, or by aborting her ever fetus that lives past conception.
If the mother wants 14 kids, then that's entirely her right to choose and no one else's! |
But even in America there are medical standards, ethics and a requirement for physicians to adhere to minimum standards. Doctors have a duty to uphold standards, and reproductive choice does not absolve physicians of their obligations (to adhere to minimum standards of care) nor entitle patients to force doctors to carry out dubious practices or procedures.
Carrying and birthing 8 children simultaneously, is very high risk to mother and off-spring both, and it seems unlikely to me that it would be ethical for a physician to intentionally bring about such a result. |
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slowmutant
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 14, 2008
Age: 34
Posts: 11411
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:18 am Post subject: |
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| Fnord wrote: | | Mage wrote: | | The doctor should have his license taken away. It was just irresponsible. If this were any other country, he would have been harshly disciplined for putting in more than 3 embryos. |
But in America, we have a thing called "Reproductive Choice"! This means that women are free to choose however many babies they want, whether by whelping an entire litter through in vitro fertilization, or by aborting her ever fetus that lives past conception.
If the mother wants 14 kids, then that's entirely her right to choose and no one else's! |
Are you serious? How can that be good for anyone?
"Reproductive Rights" need to stay witihn the bounds of reason. |
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Fnord
Enigmatic Threadkilling Metasyntactic Variable
Joined: May 07, 2008
Posts: 17814
Location: Stendec
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| Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 11:47 am Post subject: |
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| slowmutant wrote: | | Fnord wrote: | | Mage wrote: | | The doctor should have his license taken away. It was just irresponsible. If this were any other country, he would have been harshly disciplined for putting in more than 3 embryos. |
But in America, we have a thing called "Reproductive Choice"! This means that women are free to choose however many babies they want, whether by whelping an entire litter through in vitro fertilization, or by aborting her ever fetus that lives past conception.
If the mother wants 14 kids, then that's entirely her right to choose and no one else's! |
Are you serious? How can that be good for anyone? "Reproductive Rights" need to stay witihn the bounds of reason. |
1. I am serious.
2. I never said that it was good for anyone.
3. Tell it to "Family Planning" and the "National Organization of Women."
_________________
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* Believing that you're worthless allows the comfort of having something to complain about without the discomfort of having to change. |
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Fnord
Enigmatic Threadkilling Metasyntactic Variable
Joined: May 07, 2008
Posts: 17814
Location: Stendec
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| Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 11:52 am Post subject: |
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| pandd wrote: | | Fnord wrote: | | Mage wrote: | | The doctor should have his license taken away. It was just irresponsible. If this were any other country, he would have been harshly disciplined for putting in more than 3 embryos. |
But in America, we have a thing called "Reproductive Choice"! This means that women are free to choose however many babies they want, whether by whelping an entire litter through in vitro fertilization, or by aborting her ever fetus that lives past conception.
If the mother wants 14 kids, then that's entirely her right to choose and no one else's! |
But even in America there are medical standards, ethics and a requirement for physicians to adhere to minimum standards. Doctors have a duty to uphold standards, and reproductive choice does not absolve physicians of their obligations (to adhere to minimum standards of care) nor entitle patients to force doctors to carry out dubious practices or procedures. |
What are those standards? How specific are they? Who established them? Where are they written? How are they enforced?
| pandd wrote: | | Carrying and birthing 8 children simultaneously, is very high risk to mother and off-spring both, and it seems unlikely to me that it would be ethical for a physician to intentionally bring about such a result. |
Abortion is also a high-risk procedure to the mother, and is always fatal to the baby, yet you raise no objection to any woman chosing to have an abortion. This seems hypocritical.
Either women have reproductive rights or they don't - which is it?
_________________
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Fnord
Enigmatic Threadkilling Metasyntactic Variable
Joined: May 07, 2008
Posts: 17814
Location: Stendec
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| Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 12:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Rjaye wrote: | | Fnord wrote: | 14 kids and one "Welfare Momma" living in a three-room house? Welcome to America, kiddies!
Women's groups have been "de-criminalizing" single motherhood for decades, along with ensuring that women have "reproductive rights" and free cash handouts for every one of their mistakes - the more children a woman has, the more handouts they get.
Heck, in this country, she could live in comfort whether she popped out a new one every year for 14 years or whelped a litter or two at once!
Besides, as I pointed out before, it's a woman's reproductive choice to have as many children as possible by in vitro fertilization, none at all by serial abortion, anything in between!
Now, you want to whine and moan about how much this is all going to cost the American taxpayer?
You should have voted Republican... |
Fnord, to make this personal is kind of odd. |
There's nothing personal about it. Either women have reproductive freedom or they don't. Which is it?
| Rjaye wrote: | | There are limits to certain choices. Just because a woman prefers to have and parent a child on her own doesn't mean she has a right to expect others to support her financially to do so. |
What limits? There are no legal limits to the number of abortions a woman can have, nor are there legal limits to the number of live births she can have. It's called "Reproductive Freedom"!
| Rjaye wrote: | | There's indications this woman may have gone outside of the country to get her procedure, and paid cash out of some kind of injury compensation. |
Evidence, Please? A link to a reputable article would suffice.
| Rjaye wrote: | | The procedure done was unethical and dangerous... |
That's your opinion. Another opinion would be to declare abortions as unethical and dangerous - none of the babies survive, after all!
| Rjaye wrote: | | ... She played and weaseled to get what she wanted at the expense of her parents, her other kids, the medical system, and the taxpayers. She either lied, or she used the money she should have saved to take care of her other kids to bribe the doc who did the in vitro...this is wrong. |
If what you say is true, then it's a legal issue. The police should be involved, and eventually the courts and Child Protective Services, as well.
| Rjaye wrote: | | It used and abused people, and she could have died, which would have left six orphans and two grieving parents. |
Pure speculation. She did not die, and there are now 14 children, one mother, and several other family members as well.
| Rjaye wrote: | | As news comes out, it is quite likely she was on Medical, and while she had a settlement, there's conflicting reports about whether she was on welfare...if she was, with resources, that will be investigated. And with millions of dollars now being spent on these babies...you can bet the state is involved... |
"Quite likely" isn't proof, although I wouldn't rule it out. Let's wait for the final run-down before getting all in a dither over it.
| Rjaye wrote: | | The neighbors are saying that this woman was hoping for big pay outs from big companies and non-profits, like free diapers, and cars, and furniture. |
Neighbors will say anything to get their faces on TV, although I would rule this out either.
| Rjaye wrote: | | As to welfare mamas... |
No matter what the rules are, there are ways to play the System for persono matter what your status.
| Rjaye wrote: | | Feminism has nothing to do with any kind of right to live off the state. Feminism means standing on one's own two feet, using one's talents, and participating fully in society, not taking from someone else. So if a woman wants to have a child and raise it on her own, well, okay. It's a choice we have to make for ourselves. But to have a child and expect money for popping one out...uh uh. Crap happens, and welfare is only supposed to be there to help until a mother, father or family can get back on their feet, not a permanent solution. |
You're right about feminism, but since "Reproductive Freedom" is also a major issue of the Feminist organizations, it is appropriate to mention them here.
| Rjaye wrote: | | So if your experience, Fnord, is with women who want it both ways, all the rights and none of the consequences, well, that's not feminism. That's being a brat, and a child, and deserves to be treated as such, or avoided. |
I see you've met my ex.
| Rjaye wrote: | | To have full rights means having full responsibilities, financial as well as social. |
Tell that to Ms. "I have 14 kids that I expect the State to pay for!" I'm sure she's just dying to hear it one more time ... NOT! 
I'm not saying that I agree with her choices and actions. I am saying that as long as women have reproductive freedom, you can expect this type of thing to happen.
What gets me is that people are all up in arms over 14 kids being raised at government / taxpayer expense, when millions of babies per year are aborted - also at governmental / taxpayer expense.
8 live children is un-ethical and a crime, while 1,000,000+ aborted lives are a mere statistic.
Hypocrisy at its finest.
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* Believing that you're worthless allows the comfort of having something to complain about without the discomfort of having to change. |
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0_equals_true
Genuine Charlatan
Joined: Apr 06, 2007
Age: 31
Posts: 7986
Location: London
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| Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 12:43 pm Post subject: |
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In several European countries there are legal regulations or strict guidelines (that could get them struck of medical register) for the number of embryos implanted at one time.
Sexual freedom is one thing. The number of embryos implanted is not to do with sexual freedom. It is about the doctor's responsibility to the patient’s health and wellbeing.
She could have had three implanted, then if that failed another three, etc. |
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slowmutant
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 14, 2008
Age: 34
Posts: 11411
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Fnord, why do you give a damn about this at all? Since when do you care about womens' reproductive freedoms? |
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aspiemom1
Blue Jay
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Joined: Jan 23, 2008
Posts: 75
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Fnord
Enigmatic Threadkilling Metasyntactic Variable
Joined: May 07, 2008
Posts: 17814
Location: Stendec
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| Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 2:58 pm Post subject: |
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| slowmutant wrote: | | Fnord, why do you give a damn about this at all? |
Do you have a problem with my interest, or with my being right?
| slowmutant wrote: | | Since when do you care about womens' reproductive freedoms? |
Since so many people seem to object that a woman has exercised her reproductive rights to have children, instead of having an abortion (or eight, in this case).
It's all about "Freedom of Choice," and people - especially those in the media - seem to have forgotten this.
_________________
* Believing in myths allows the comfort of having an opinion without the discomfort of having to think.
* Believing that you're worthless allows the comfort of having something to complain about without the discomfort of having to change. |
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slowmutant
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 14, 2008
Age: 34
Posts: 11411
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 3:00 pm Post subject: |
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| You didn't answer my question. That was just a bit of verbal ju jitsu, a la Gregory House. Why do you give a damn about this at all? |
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Fnord
Enigmatic Threadkilling Metasyntactic Variable
Joined: May 07, 2008
Posts: 17814
Location: Stendec
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| Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 3:09 pm Post subject: |
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| slowmutant wrote: | | You didn't answer my question. That was just a bit of verbal ju jitsu, a la Gregory House. Why do you give a damn about this at all? |
One more time...
| slowmutant wrote: | | Since when do you care about womens' reproductive freedoms? |
| Fnord wrote: | Since so many people seem to object that a woman has exercised her reproductive rights to have children, instead of having an abortion (or eight, in this case).
It's all about "Freedom of Choice," and people - especially those in the media - seem to have forgotten this. |
... or do you need a specific date?
I don't understand why my interest should matter to you, even if you are my biggest fan (Sorry, Orwell!). You'll just have to deal with the fact that I do care about women's reproductive freedoms; and in this particular case, about one woman's right to choose life instead of abortion, AND her right to do so in private without challenge, interference, or media hype.
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* Believing in myths allows the comfort of having an opinion without the discomfort of having to think.
* Believing that you're worthless allows the comfort of having something to complain about without the discomfort of having to change. |
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Eggman
das Freak'n Techno Viking!
Joined: Jul 18, 2008
Posts: 5381
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| Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 3:16 pm Post subject: |
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i just cant care bout peoples reproduction..i jate shows about families cause they had like 8 kids..that doesnt make me interested in you at all.
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LKL
Phoenix
Joined: Jul 22, 2007
Age: 37
Posts: 5687
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| Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Fnord wrote: | | Abortion is also a high-risk procedure to the mother, and is always fatal to the baby, yet you raise no objection to any woman chosing to have an abortion. This seems hypocritical. |
Abortion in the first trimester (when the vast majority are performed) is statistically less dangerous to the mother than natural childbirth. If, as I stated earlier, this story was about a serial abortionist (remember that woman a year or so ago who 'impregnated' herself and then took abortificant herbs for several months in a row, as an "art" project? Not a lot of flattering views buzzing around about her, either), you would be hearing similar levels of censure.
In either case, it's about balance. This woman is out of balance.
| Quote: | | Either women have reproductive rights or they don't - which is it? |
That is a false dichotomy.
Adults with driver's licenses have a right to drive in the United States, but they do not have the right to drive on the sidewalk. |
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slowmutant
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 14, 2008
Age: 34
Posts: 11411
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | You'll just have to deal with the fact that I do care about women's reproductive freedoms |
Okay, but I think eight simultaneous births is freakish. The Dionne Quints were almost a sideshow act in their day, and they were just five. |
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