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j0sh
Toucan
Joined: Nov 19, 2008
Age: 32
Posts: 295
Location: Tampa, Florida
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 Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 5:25 pm Post subject: High Performance IQ with no visualization ability. |
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Hello,
I’ve been trying to make sense of this for a while. I’d appreciate any thoughts or theories that may explain this.
I have no mental imagery ability. I cannot create any images in my mind. This is with or without my eyes closed. I cannot picture colors, shapes, faces, ect. The only time I see mental images is when I am dreaming. From the researching I’ve done, it seems that almost everyone is capable of mental imagery to some degree regardless of their primary thinking style.
I expected this to greatly impact my Performance IQ score. I took the WAIS-III as part of my AS assessment. I was expecting my VIQ to be much higher than my PIQ for the above reason. But, my PIQ ended up being 14 points higher than my VIQ.
PIQ Subtests:
Picture Completion = 14
Digital Symbol Coding = 8
Block Design = 17
Matrix Reasoning = 17
Picture Arrangement = 14
It seems that Digital Symbol Coding was the only subtest that may of been impacted by not being able to visualize. And that would only be if standard way to take that portion of the test is to created a mental image of the key at the top of the paper… I don’t know if most people can do that or not.
It just seems like the IQ testing completely missed that I was missing a vital component of non-verbal information processing that just about everyone possesses.
This also got me thinking. Do any of you that have very high Verbal IQ’s compared to Performance IQ’s have visualization issues?
If yes, please try to describe your way of thinking. Do you have mind full of word knowledge that’s completely dethatched from a mental image?
If not, please try to describe your way of thinking. Do you have a massive index of mental images that are attached to facts or other types of knowledge?
Is it possible that the key to a high verbal IQ score is having superior non-verbal abilities in the area of visual imagery? It seems to me that good visualization ability could assist greatly in the Information, Similarities/Differences, and Digit Span subtests.
Does this make any sense?
Thanks,
Josh |
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Peko
Velociraptor
Joined: Feb 13, 2008
Age: 18
Posts: 455
Location: Eastern PA, USA
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| Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 6:37 pm Post subject: High IQ & No Visualization |
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That sounds a lot like me (with some altered I think)  ... long story if you want to read it.
First off, in my case I've noticed my memory is completely auditory. I remember things only through sound, touch, smell, etc. I usually convert sights to sound & can use touch as a median sense between sight and sound for things you cannot synthesize in an auditory manor (like diagrams/really got good at this in anatomy). I used a method like this (take diagram look at it, associate picture w/ word I would say, mitral valve/point to it, repeat w/ everything until I memorized it so I am singing it in my head all the time). With reading I would draw the letter in the air on on a carpet square & say it (over & over again).
Would get so good at this I eventually knew (if I see this image, it means this in this scenario, or I would hear the word "anvil"/in speech therapy & know "its the black/gray metal thing black smiths hit & Wily Coyote got smashed w/ a lot on Looney Toons", not the "cell w/ particles in it" or the "red rubber balloon in the girl's hand". Sounds taxing, but I got so used to it it is usually instantaneous now.
One weakness this has led to is a permanent inability to know left from right when looking at a picture (way I knew it on some diagrams was remembering (this valve is on the left side, or the pancreas is on the left (I think?) side of the abdomen, or Asia is on the eastern side of the globe, etc.). No visual memory does cause some weird & frustrating issues though. But these (all my) memories are purely words I hear in my head (like a permanently installed tape recorder in my head) (ex. my house has clay colored shutters). I just remember this word (ex. "clay", goes w/ "color of my shutters"). So I have no visuals in my head at all! I still have to use my hands and literally look at them and shake them going (moving left one, this is my left side, repeat w/ right hand, etc.)
I will say though I can see colors when I close my eyes (but it depends on the lighting in the room what colors I see, can't tell if its shades behind my lids or imagined colors) . I do have very visual & auditory dreams (also had touch/pain when on a bad med/this was not fun at all!) I also constantly have this sparkly haze in front of my eyes (miniscule colored specks that hover, shine or swirl around/depends). I used to have visuals at night when I was little in a dark room (ready to sleep & in half-awake state where I'd see visuals from dreams when awake/scared the crap out of me.) But I still like drawing & really colorful things. But I prefer writing so I hear stories in my heads/more convenient to carry around  .
I don't know much about IQ tests (or if I ever had one/had so many tests...Who in the world knows). But I cannot do tests (practical type) involving 3-D blocks & copying a cube pattern w/ them (b/c of lack of visual association).
If you want a good autistic auditory example, look up Tito Mukhopadhyay, he is from India & has written multiple books of poetry explaining his auditory mind (really amazing)!  I read about him in Strange Son, but I would look up/get his own stuff if I were you. Possibly other group of aspies/auties (the auditory ones) unlike the visuals (ones who see picks in heads)/more "classic"/well known ones.
If you want to know more or are confused, just pm me.
_________________
Balance is needed within the universe, can be demonstrated in most/all concepts/things. Black/White, Good/Evil, etc.
All dependent upon your own perspective in your own form of existence, so trust your own gut and live the way YOU want/need to. |
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sluice
Snowy Owl
Joined: Aug 16, 2007
Posts: 146
Location: center of universe
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| Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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I am not sure how to answer your question, but I have the same problems with forming imagery outside of my dreams. My most recent IQ test had verbal results about 15 points higher than the performance numbers. When I was a child, it was about 30 points. My overall IQ seems to vary a great amount from test to test.
When somebody is describing something to me, I usually "feel" the description the way I think they want me to see it more than actually seeing it. I almost want to say it is a pseudo-empathetic approach. I have a tendency to focus on language and logical reasoning in my thought patterns. I can overanalyze a situation looking for better comprehension.
I should also say that I have problems with executive function. My brain is often filled with a steady stream of ideas and thoughts, but if I don't capture them in the moment they are quickly gone from my immediate memory. If I want to focus on one thing, then I must create a mental logjam in my mind- basically make an impasse that prevents new thoughts from interfering. It is annoying.
In life, I did really well in school, but in the outside world it hasn't really translated. |
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j0sh
Toucan
Joined: Nov 19, 2008
Age: 32
Posts: 295
Location: Tampa, Florida
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| Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 10:21 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you for your replies Peko and sluice.
I didn't expect to get two people reply that have the same visualization issues so quickly. Maybe it's not as rare as I had thought.
Did either of you experience any learning issues that you feel may be related to not being able recall visual memory as a mental image?
I was diagnosed as learning disabled in 2nd grade. I think it's related because allot of the first things you learn is memorization. Learning tools like math flash cards didn't work well for me. The way I memorized times tables and things like that was by storing audio files of my mother or tutor saying what was on the cards. For instance, to this day, when I need to multiply two numbers in my head, I can still play back my mother saying it in the exact rhythm she used. Once math changed from memorization to working out problems on paper, I did just fine... until algebra at least.
It's kind of funny, some of the things that stuck in my long term memory. My 5th grade teacher was trying to illustrate that sometimes singing something can help you remember it. She sung her home phone number and twenty something years later, i still remember it. |
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starygrrl
Deinonychus
Joined: Apr 13, 2009
Posts: 326
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j0sh
Toucan
Joined: Nov 19, 2008
Age: 32
Posts: 295
Location: Tampa, Florida
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| Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 11:00 pm Post subject: |
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I understand that. I've also seen that some think the majority of people with ASD are visual thinkers. I've seen that reflected in some of the discussions on these forums. It seems like the majority of people here are visual thinkers. Some studies have shown that people with AS usually score higher on VIQ than PIQ when there is a discrepancy.
So I'd like to know if there are people that primarily think visually, but score higher on VIQ than PIQ on IQ tests. I understand it's not supposed to work that way, but something doesn't add up. If the majority of people with AS are visual thinkers, why is it more common for them to have a higher VIQ than PIQ?
It's the flip side of my own situation. My visual thinking is impaired, but I scored higher on PIQ than VIQ. I'd like to know if anyone else has the same profile or the opposite. I see no harm in asking, even if that's not how it's supposed to work. |
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desdemona
Blue Jay
Joined: May 27, 2009
Posts: 77
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| Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 2:18 am Post subject: |
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Though I am a visual thinker, I think that Temple Grandin is flat out wrong that all autistics are visual thinkers. Its egocentric thinking is all. (I don't mean this in a negative way-- just that because she is, she assumes everyone is. I have met autistic people who are total verbal thinkers.
It doesn't seem strange to me to be high in performance IQ without being a visual thinker. I am just the opposite and higher in the verbal section. I think the performance IQ doesn't really measure visual thinking. You could do any of those tasks without high visualization, but you must have some way of approaching the block design test.
--des |
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Michjo
Phoenix
Joined: Mar 05, 2009
Age: 25
Posts: 1020
Location: Oxford, UK
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| Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 3:34 am Post subject: |
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| I am unable to think in pictures or words. I don't tend to think about anything, i just do stuff, i just say things. I don't like trying to think, it doesn't seem natural to me. I've always assumed that this was because i have HFA as opposed to aspergers. Since i use the right-side of my brain pre-dominantly, that makes me a very instinctual person. |
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RarePegs
Deinonychus
Joined: Oct 21, 2008
Posts: 344
Location: Northern Ireland
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| Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 8:32 am Post subject: |
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| I think what is more likely is that differences of multiple intelligences are more exaggerated in the autistic brain than in the NT brain on account of reduced central processing |
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starygrrl
Deinonychus
Joined: Apr 13, 2009
Posts: 326
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| Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 10:31 am Post subject: |
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Let me state this again VIQ is NOT Visual IQ, its VERBAL IQ.
If you scored higher on your performance IQ (PIQ) than your Verbal IQ (VIQ), it usually indicates weaker verbal abilities. There are people on this site who struggle with visual aspects, but there Verbal IQ is often higher than thier performance IQ (PIQ). Not all people with ASDs have visual assets, frequently that group is people with classic autism and high functioning autism. Folks with certian manifestations of AS, PDD-NOS, and NLD can have visual deficits. However, when these visual deficits are present, there performance IQ (PIQ) is often much lower than there verbal iq (VIQ). As supposed to classic autism, which can be the flip of that. People with ASDs can have visual deficits, but its usually not classic or high functioning autism when that is the case, it is either AS w/NLD, NLD or some type of PDD-NOS (atypical autism). It very much depends on the individual manifestation.
But you need to understand, the what PIQ and VIQ is and is not. Which its pretty clear, you don't. There is no visual IQ on the WAIS-III, there is verbal IQ and performance IQ. |
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Sora
f l y a w a y
Joined: Sep 16, 2006
Age: 21
Posts: 4734
Location: Europe
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| Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 10:47 am Post subject: Re: High Performance IQ with no visualization ability. |
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Interesting.
I did these subtests relaying on my ability to visualise. I see how especially Block Design as well as Symbol Coding could be done with a weak ability to visualise.
How anyone manages Picture Completion without the ability to visualise the outcome though is beyond me. I'm really curious about how you figured out where to put the pieces to complete the big picture? I mean, seriously, unless you were freakingly lucky and just placed the pieces correctly by chance you have to have some ability of visualisation to guess/know whether two and more pieces fit together before you actually try it. Figuring this stuff out is a part of the ability to visualise the outcome of a (visual) process.
Sooo... take the following as a hint to another possibility, yes? You could be right, sure, but I thought it may not be your visualisation ability itself that is actually impaired. I think visual recalling could be the actual issue seeing how you mentioned having problems with that too.
I was thinking: How come your low score on Symbol Coding?
Because this one relies heavily on being able to memorise and recall visual information. Is that a problem for you? Visual memory?
A deficit in the ability to recall visual information might easily impair your visualisation though your visualisation abilities could be just fine with you being unable to use them because of your inability to recall images from memory/that are not in front of your eyes.
_________________
AS/HFA + ADHD
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The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it. Terry Pratchett |
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j0sh
Toucan
Joined: Nov 19, 2008
Age: 32
Posts: 295
Location: Tampa, Florida
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| Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 12:27 pm Post subject: |
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| starygrrl wrote: | Let me state this again VIQ is NOT Visual IQ, its VERBAL IQ.
But you need to understand, the what PIQ and VIQ is and is not. Which its pretty clear, you don't. There is no visual IQ on the WAIS-III, there is verbal IQ and performance IQ. |
Where did I say that VIQ meant "visual IQ"? Please quote this for me.
I'm also not saying that PIQ = visual IQ. The PIQ subtests do rely heavy on processing visual information though.
I'm curious if people's ability to recall visual information or visualize was used during subtest of verbal IQ.
Examples:
Information - Being able to visually recall the answer or source of the answer.
Similarities/Differences - Comparing mental images of the two examples and analyzing those mental images to find similarities/diferences.
Digit Span subtest - Creating a mental image of the numbers that need to be recited forwards and backwards.
Last edited by j0sh on Tue Jun 23, 2009 2:38 pm; edited 4 times in total |
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j0sh
Toucan
Joined: Nov 19, 2008
Age: 32
Posts: 295
Location: Tampa, Florida
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| Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 1:21 pm Post subject: Re: High Performance IQ with no visualization ability. |
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| Sora wrote: | | How anyone manages Picture Completion without the ability to visualise the outcome though is beyond me. I'm really curious about how you figured out where to put the pieces to complete the big picture? I mean, seriously, unless you were freakingly lucky and just placed the pieces correctly by chance you have to have some ability of visualisation to guess/know whether two and more pieces fit together before you actually try it. Figuring this stuff out is a part of the ability to visualise the outcome of a (visual) process. |
The picture completion subtest on WAIS-III has you look at a picture and figure out what essential detail is missing from the picture. It was things like missing shoe lases or a row of school lockers with one missing the ventilation slots.
| Sora wrote: | | Sooo... take the following as a hint to another possibility, yes? You could be right, sure, but I thought it may not be your visualisation ability itself that is actually impaired. I think visual recalling could be the actual issue seeing how you mentioned having problems with that too. |
I think you're correct. I think my visual perception ability is fine. I can process visual information that I can see and analyze that information. I just can't recall and present visual information in my mind's eye.
| Sora wrote: | I was thinking: How come your low score on Symbol Coding?
Because this one relies heavily on being able to memorise and recall visual information. Is that a problem for you? Visual memory? |
The way I took the test was by keeping my finger/pencil on the part of the sheet where you fill in the answers to keep my place. Then I'd look up at the key at the top of the page, fill in the answer, then move on. I had to do this on every question. I guess that maybe some people memorize what symbol corresponds to what number and can complete more of the test as a result?
| Sora wrote: | | A deficit in the ability to recall visual information might easily impair your visualisation though your visualisation abilities could be just fine with you being unable to use them because of your inability to recall images from memory/that are not in front of your eyes. |
Yes. I think my visual perception and ability to process visual information may have been heightened as a response to issues with visual memory. |
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Sora
f l y a w a y
Joined: Sep 16, 2006
Age: 21
Posts: 4734
Location: Europe
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| Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 1:31 pm Post subject: Re: High Performance IQ with no visualization ability. |
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| j0sh wrote: | | The picture completion subtest on WAIS-III has you look at a picture and figure out what essential detail is missing from the picture. It was things like missing shoe lases or a row of school lockers with one missing the ventilation slots. |
You're right, I confused this one with the object assembly of the WISC-III.
| j0sh wrote: | | The way I took the test was by keeping my finger/pencil on the part of the sheet where you fill in the answers to keep my place. Then I'd look up at the key at the top of the page, fill in the answer, then move on. I had to do this on every question. I guess that maybe some people memorize what symbol corresponds to what number and can complete more of the test as a result? |
From what I understand it's like that. I did this the same as you did but from what I gathered, it's not how others do it who memorise at least a couple of the numbers and symbols after the first rows. I can't believe people can do this actually, but yeah, supposedly they memorise some of the new information automatically after putting it in action, though usually not all of it.
_________________
AS/HFA + ADHD
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The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it. Terry Pratchett |
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desdemona
Blue Jay
Joined: May 27, 2009
Posts: 77
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| Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 11:17 pm Post subject: Re: High Performance IQ with no visualization ability. |
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| Sora wrote: | Interesting.
I did these subtests relaying on my ability to visualise. I see how especially Block Design as well as Symbol Coding could be done with a weak ability to visualise.
How anyone manages Picture Completion without the ability to visualise the outcome though is beyond me. I'm really curious about how you figured out where to put the pieces to complete the big picture?
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IIRC, Picture Completion has you put pictures in order to tell a coherent story. My understanding is that this subtest is often low in autism. The OT may have had the subtest removed, as sometimes they sometimes take the lowest subtest out.
--des |
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