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| Should ASD kids be taught to look others in the eye? |
| Absolutely, they gotta learn! |
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8% |
[ 2 ] |
| Not if too stressful... |
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66% |
[ 16 ] |
| Just leave the poor dears alone! |
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25% |
[ 6 ] |
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| Total Votes : 24 |
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2leftfeet
Butterfly
Joined: Jun 23, 2009
Posts: 15
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 Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 12:08 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | The main reason eye contact drives me crazy is the whole AS focus issue. If i'm looking at you IM LOOKING AT YOU. All focus. Rather than listen to you, which is done with the ears and not the eyes, which is probably just me as an AS taking things literally. |
That aspect of Aspie interaction with others had never occurred to me before. I think you have a very valid point. |
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Kaleido
Nearly NT and counting
Joined: Feb 19, 2007
Posts: 2602
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| Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 4:49 am Post subject: |
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| nansnick wrote: | | If i'm looking at you IM LOOKING AT YOU. All focus. Rather than listen to you, which is done with the ears and not the eyes, which is probably just me as an AS taking things literally. |
Indeed, I can look at eye colour, wrinkles, nose shape and those kinds of things but don't expect me to be able to hear the person and process a sensible reply as well. Seems obvious to me. |
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0_equals_true
Genuine Charlatan
Joined: Apr 06, 2007
Age: 27
Posts: 6992
Location: London
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| Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 10:07 am Post subject: |
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No but mainly because the rule about maintaining eye contact thing is actually a myth. If you teach ASD people to maintain eye contact they are going to come across as threatening, or startled.
It is equally important to look always as it is to look to acknowledge speak and presence by looking. So in reality you would never really look directly in their eyes more then a second at a time.
There are some people on the spectrum who naturally look people in the eyes too much.
I did have eye contact exercises. One thing to note is that me and others on the spectrum reported that direct eye contact hurt and or was physically difficult. It is not the same as shyness. The eye contact exercises I did, worked on this premise, and was a gradual process. Before, when close to someone, if I would try to look someone in the eye my eyes would instantly just to the side. It is a reaction that you can't do consciously. It is almost exactly the same as if someone is shining a bright light into you eyes.
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JanetFAP
Sea Gull
Joined: May 26, 2009
Age: 56
Posts: 206
Location: Phoenix, arising from the ashes
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| Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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| 0_equals_true wrote: |
I did have eye contact exercises. One thing to note is that me and others on the spectrum reported that direct eye contact hurt and or was physically difficult. It is not the same as shyness. The eye contact exercises I did, worked on this premise, and was a gradual process. Before, when close to someone, if I would try to look someone in the eye my eyes would instantly just to the side. It is a reaction that you can't do consciously. It is almost exactly the same as if someone is shining a bright light into you eyes. |
| Kaleido wrote: | | Indeed, I can look at eye colour, wrinkles, nose shape and those kinds of things but don't expect me to be able to hear the person and process a sensible reply as well. Seems obvious to me. |
0_equals_true, did your exercises help you to listen while you brave the 'bright shining light' of the speaker's eyes?
What did the exercises entail?
Mostly I hear parents, aids, and teachers firmly instructing "look at me" while gesturing with two fingers at their own eyes.
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makuranososhi
Purple Monkey Dishwasher
Joined: May 13, 2008
Posts: 4714
Location: Transitional
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| Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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| computerlove wrote: | Don't make him do it... if you want the kid to have a miserable life.
If should be FORCED on any age, not just kids. Aspies need to be taught to look into people's eyes, and they also need to have classes where you are forced to socialize
and learn about teamwork,
learn how to relate to other people
and learn entitlement,
and have self-confidence,
to have a chance to make it in life. |
Completely disagree; forcing people into things builds resentment and aversion. Looking at people's eyes was uncomfortable... I eventually learned and decided to make that change - the eyes were easier than looking at their faces. But not everyone is a round peg for a round hole. Learn how to function as oneself, not as someone else decides is correct.
M.
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0_equals_true
Genuine Charlatan
Joined: Apr 06, 2007
Age: 27
Posts: 6992
Location: London
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| Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 5:08 pm Post subject: |
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| JanetFAP wrote: | | 0_equals_true, did your exercises help you to listen while you brave the 'bright shining light' of the speaker's eyes? |
Not really, that is why you don't want to look too long. In order to communicate you are listening you want to turn you head slightly to the side to expose an ear. Eye contact is basically for the initial acknowledgement and to show you aren't day dreaming.
| JanetFAP wrote: | | What did the exercises entail? |
Can't remember the exact order, but did it gradually over several weeks. Something like:
- Shrink sitting side on to me with sun glasses
- She has eyes closed, I turn to look she opens eyes (repeat)
- She has eyes open, mine are closed, I turn to look and open eyes (repeat)
- Same as 1 without the sunglasses
- Same as 2 but more front on and slightly nearer
- On the floor cross-legged and very close up (either one can start of with head tilting down or to the side)
4 is the hardest then you gradually build up how long you look. It is at your own pace you can turn away when ever you want.
I wouldn't say my eye contact is perfect but I have enough to get by. But depending on the eyes, or stress I can struggle.
What I talked about is general use. There are some situations where you need more eye contact. I do martial arts and I am constant told to look at my opponent. It is true it is affect you posture and performance, but at the same time it can be awkward and hard to concentrate. I think I need to look at their heads but not directly in the eyes. A training partner I have I think may be an autie with learning difficulties, but he will look at you so much he forger to blink and has to rub his eyes.
| JanetFAP wrote: | | Mostly I hear parents, aids, and teachers firmly instructing "look at me" while gesturing with two fingers at their own eyes. |
That is probably because consciously they feel there is not enough eye contact because they haven't received the non verbal communication they are used to.
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JanetFAP
Sea Gull
Joined: May 26, 2009
Age: 56
Posts: 206
Location: Phoenix, arising from the ashes
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| Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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| 0_equals_true wrote: | Can't remember the exact order, but did it gradually over several weeks. Something like:
Shrink sitting side on to me with sun glasses
She has eyes closed, I turn to look she opens eyes (repeat)
She has eyes open, mine are closed, I turn to look and open eyes (repeat)
Same as 1 without the sunglasses
Same as 2 but more front on and slightly nearer
On the floor cross-legged and very close up (either one can start of with head tilting down or to the side)
4 is the hardest then you gradually build up how long you look. It is at your own pace you can turn away when ever you want.
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Thanks, 0_equals_true!
Do you think that b/c NTs pick up on NVC (such as eye contact) intuitively, they often do not analyse it. Maybe NT that have not analysed it are probably the worst choice to teach it because they are clueless and without empathy.
I remembered reading something about good eye contact being more one of timing than amount of time, so I just googled it to see if it was as sensible as I remembered. I found the following on WP. Apparently gsilver read the same book back in 2006:
| gsilver wrote: |
Times to use eye contact:
End of an important sentence (to add emphasis)
End of a question (to request feedback)
During the entire time of asking a rhetorical question (to ensure proper delivery of the question)
At key points in the other person's speech (such as when they are delivering or requesting important information)
Since I am rather good at written communication, thinking of eye contact as punctuation makes the whole concept much easier to grasp. I would suggest that everyone here begins thinking of it in the same way to help them in communication.
In reality, you don't need to use much eye contact, just specific times. To further demonstrate this, I was also surprised at how little eye contact the average NT uses... but general rules (and effective ones, at that) can be derived by observing when NTs initiate eye contact.
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I would add at greeting and esp at farewell (like during the handshake, if there is one)
| 0_equals_true wrote: | | What I talked about is general use. There are some situations where you need more eye contact. I do martial arts and I am constant told to look at my opponent. |
Speaking as a 2nd degree black belt, I would admend that advice to watch your opponant. You have to catch any advertisement of kick or punch, and eye gaze is only one indicator.
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Igor
Raven
Joined: Aug 12, 2008
Posts: 100
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| Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 10:26 am Post subject: |
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Only if they're taught in a proper and controlled way.
My mother told me before a school week-long field-trip that I should always look people in the eye. I took her at her word and the next I heard people calling me weird, because I was always staring at them.
To compensate I then decided I had to stare at a distance object to avoid looking at people. Except, staring at distant objects all the time is also considered weird.
So, in the end I went through years of hell, not knowing how to look at people. I mean, what a situation - you can't look at anybody, but you can't not look at anybody  In the end, I self-taught myself with books how to look at people, the timing, where you should rest your eyes etc.
On a daily basis, I probably still don't look at people the "correct" length of time, but at least I can turn it on when it matters (say at an interview for a job). |
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nansnick
Toucan
Joined: Apr 21, 2009
Posts: 282
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| Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Kaleido wrote: | | nansnick wrote: | | If i'm looking at you IM LOOKING AT YOU. All focus. Rather than listen to you, which is done with the ears and not the eyes, which is probably just me as an AS taking things literally. |
Indeed, I can look at eye colour, wrinkles, nose shape and those kinds of things but don't expect me to be able to hear the person and process a sensible reply as well. Seems obvious to me. |
It's definitely one or the other. If I'm going to listen to the person they are just going to have to put up with me not looking at them. I do try though. Usually my eyes aren't looking at anything when I'm actually listening. There are different studies that have shown (like studies were needed) that the direction our eyes are pointing correspond to what part of our brain is being accessed and used. I always associated my wondering eyes during conversation as an extension of my thought process. It's a good thing, If I'm looking all over and into space there's a greater chance I'm listening to the person.
Sometimes the shape of their nose or the left-hand side part in their hair though feels more satisfying that what they are talking about and I get distracted. I guess some people have the peripheral ability to look directly at someone, listen and take in their appearance. This is most likely the AS tendency to be interested in what there interested in and everything else is irrelevant. Can't the talker focus?! 
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OhNowIGetIt
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Joined: Jun 24, 2009
Age: 35
Posts: 51
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| Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 7:43 pm Post subject: not forced |
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| I do think it should be "taught" as in, for the child to understand that NT may feel otherly than he/she about this issue. I don't think it does anything but damage to force anything in parenting, unless it is an absoloute safety/ health issue. This isn't, by far. It is a request in this house, for the children who are better focused by looking at my eyes. I have often said "where are my eyes?" to a toddler to get attention. That said, when my aspies are on sensory overload, in public, or other times, I can tell that looking at me is only going to further hinder them from hearing a single word I say. Sometimes after multiple attempts to break through my 12yro thoughts, I'll just write instructions on the white board or on an index card. He reads them aloud, shoots me a milisecond eye lock, gives the half nod and goes to! It is all about doing what works for the child, not just the rest of the world IMHO. |
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computerlove
Shigeo Fukuda 2009 :(
Joined: Jul 11, 2006
Posts: 5842
Location: Male, Mexico, Graphic Design
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| Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 12:43 am Post subject: |
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| makuranososhi wrote: | | computerlove wrote: | Don't make him do it... if you want the kid to have a miserable life.
If should be FORCED on any age, not just kids. Aspies need to be taught to look into people's eyes, and they also need to have classes where you are forced to socialize
and learn about teamwork,
learn how to relate to other people
and learn entitlement,
and have self-confidence,
to have a chance to make it in life. |
Completely disagree; forcing people into things builds resentment and aversion. Looking at people's eyes was uncomfortable... I eventually learned and decided to make that change - the eyes were easier than looking at their faces. But not everyone is a round peg for a round hole. Learn how to function as oneself, not as someone else decides is correct.
M. |
So basically you are saying that it's ok, all in the name of "don't let the person feel uncomfortable?" and that you prefer to see a population of aspies that can't hold a job, or even worse, have to live on goverment support, charity or be homeless? Oh, and let's not forget that in some countries like mine there's no government support for the unemployed.
Unfortunately the forum has plenty of stories about all of the above mentioned, people who have lots of difficulties even getting a f***ing interview. And on the other side you have this person, very capable, with plenty of knowledge, that when in a interview will be seen as not good enough for the job, just because he avoided eye contact or doesn't know how to chit chat.
All in the name of "let's not help him to be better, it's better the way it is".
And then you'll say "but being aspies has worked for some people like X and Y", and yes, I agree, but that's the exception, rare cases, not the majority as one would expect.
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One of God's own prototypes. Some kind of high powered mutant never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die. |
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MissConstrue
Has left WP.
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Joined: Feb 05, 2008
Posts: 16635
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| Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 2:14 am Post subject: |
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When I was a kid, my parents and teachers brought up how I wasn't looking up or at people. No one including my parent even knew I had aspergers. So I worked on it more when I got into theater and acting classes.
I wasn't forced or anything. In fact, I gradually grew comfortable with it...yet it was something I had to remind myself to do. Now I've gotten to where it comes naturally like a reaction...although I do tend to look and then look away whenever someone smiles at me due to nervousness.
Anyway, my aspergers was never known. Most people didn't regard my quirks as disabilites but rather eccentricities....or as most of my teachers put it, I had a different way of dealing with things.
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theOtherSide
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Joined: Jun 18, 2009
Age: 41
Posts: 62
Location: wish i knew
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| Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 12:11 pm Post subject: |
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so who decides the stress level??? i vote no. leave us alone.
| nansnick wrote: | | The main reason eye contact drives me crazy is the whole AS focus issue. If i'm looking at you IM LOOKING AT YOU. All focus. Rather than listen to you, which is done with the ears and not the eyes, which is probably just me as an AS taking things literally. |
yes! good point.
i have the same problem with hearing and listening too. |
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Mysty
Phoenix
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Joined: Jun 25, 2008
Posts: 866
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| Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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| theOtherSide wrote: | | so who decides the stress level??? |
The person themselves. Yes, a person can be taught to make decisions for themselves and not follow rote rules. A person can be taught about eye contact and it's importants and how to use it, and also taught to figure out what's right for them in each given situation. |
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matsuiny2004
Phoenix
Joined: Mar 23, 2008
Posts: 1634
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| Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 5:13 am Post subject: |
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definitely no. There are even NT's who find this uncomfortable. A for me it creates an overload. Eyecontact is overrated  
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