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NOBS
Toucan
Joined: Apr 20, 2008
Age: 47
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Location: Alaska
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 Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 5:27 pm Post subject: |
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| So the answer then is Yes, the glass is half full/half empty. I think we are in agreement. |
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NOBS
Toucan
Joined: Apr 20, 2008
Age: 47
Posts: 278
Location: Alaska
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| Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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| PS; Fiddlerpianist, kudos to your tag line. I absolutely love that picturesqe phrase. |
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Tollorin
Velociraptor
Joined: Jun 15, 2009
Age: 28
Posts: 442
Location: Sherbrooke,Québec, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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| ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote: | I' m not sure what is meant by gifted. I have known gifted people and with lots of friends and praise from others. I would not call them "disordered," exactly. To me, there's a distinction between the two. When I think of a gifted person the first thing that comes to mind is an NT that can do certain things other NTs can't or excells in school where other NTs lag.
I wouldn't put them in the same catagory as myself, they have it way easier than me. Some people are jealous of them but mostly, their parents, classmates and teachers praise them and love them. They are the pets who can do no wrong whom everyone adores.
They don't react to stress the same way, their gears shift more easily, they don't have the need to stim when they need to feel a sense of comfort. Their behaviour isn't strange. They don't obsess on one subject as much.
There are people on the spectrum that can do unusual things, true, savants and others but it's not the same experience as the gifted person, in many ways. You could call them gifted but it's a different kind of gifted. Giftedness with more trade-offs. |
You're misinformed on the subject look at these links:
http://www.davidsongifted.org/db/Articles_id_10133.aspx
http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/ridiculous_things.htm
http://www.sengifted.org/articles_social/Schuler_GiftedKidsAtRiskWhosListening.shtml
http://www.giftedhaven.net/forum/showthread.php?tid=1786&page=3
http://www.giftedhaven.net/forum/showthread.php?tid=1032&highlight=arbore
http://www.giftedhaven.net/forum/showthread.php?tid=47&page=1
| UrchiStar47 wrote: | | History. Gifted was a label for aspies before psychology ever discovered the condition. After all, they had to call us something, as we did things differently, it was decided that we are gifted. |
No, because being asperger don't mean you're "smart" enough to be gifted. Also our special interests are not always intellectuals.
| fiddlerpianist wrote: | | Part of the problem is that "gifted" really isn't a scientific term. "Gifted" really means someone who perceives the world differently and has talents which may be related to those differences. The list of differences is eerily similar to someone with an ASD, except that it's approached from the positive aspects of the traits (as exhausted keeps pointing out). |
It look alike, but there are still some differences.
The gifteds are good for reading emotions and understanding social cues and got no difficulty to looking peoples in the eyes. Also, gifteds love learning on a great variety of subject while asperger generally focus more on a little variety of subject. The gifted interests leak out on gifted aspergers though. |
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ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
water
Joined: Jun 19, 2008
Posts: 3577
Location: Somewhere between Canada and Mexico
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| Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Regardless of what links say, I rely more on my own experience and what I have seen in my own personal life. It has more meaning to me. Posting links and telling me I am misinformed hasn't much to do with my life. |
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fiddlerpianist
Unclassified and loving it!
Joined: May 01, 2009
Age: 32
Posts: 1637
Location: The Autistic Hinterlands
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| Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Tollorin wrote: | | The gifteds are good for reading emotions and understanding social cues and got no difficulty to looking peoples in the eyes. Also, gifteds love learning on a great variety of subject while asperger generally focus more on a little variety of subject. The gifted interests leak out on gifted aspergers though. |
As I have previously asserted (I believe it was in this thread), I believe that the difference between "gifted" and HFA-flavored ASD traits is more-or-less severity. Those that receive the "gifted" label probably do not have autistic traits in a severe enough manner for them to have a disorder. While gifteds can probably read social cues acceptably well, they probably aren't experts.
Also keep in mind that anything that says something along the lines of, "Being gifted is unrelated to Asperger's because people with AS have trouble with eye contact" is using a stereotypical AS profile to distance itself from the condition.
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"That leap of logic should have broken his legs." - Janissy |
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ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
water
Joined: Jun 19, 2008
Posts: 3577
Location: Somewhere between Canada and Mexico
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| Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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| It's more like being gifted is unrelated to Asperger's because NTs are gifted too. Being gifted doesn't necessarily mean you are autistic. |
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fiddlerpianist
Unclassified and loving it!
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Location: The Autistic Hinterlands
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| Posted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 12:23 am Post subject: |
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| ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote: | | It's more like being gifted is unrelated to Asperger's because NTs are gifted too. Being gifted doesn't necessarily mean you are autistic. |
No, no, no... Gifted in this sense doesn't mean generally gifted. For purposes of this conversation we are using "gifted" to mean something more specific than "someone who has gifts or talents."
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"That leap of logic should have broken his legs." - Janissy |
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duke666
Deinonychus
Joined: Aug 09, 2009
Posts: 379
Location: San Francisco
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| Posted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 3:52 am Post subject: |
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Gifted aspies are more likely to invent cognitive adaptations that allow them to 'pass' as NT.
I agree with NOBS about the experts being a bit clueless. We're still in the 'barber-surgeon' period here. Our ignorance certainly exceeds our knowledge on the subject.
We need more of our own Theory of Brain, and less of their Theory of Mind. Or maybe it's just late and I should go to bed.
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"Yeah, I've always been myself, even when I was ill.
Only now I seem myself. And that's the important thing.
I have remembered how to seem."
-The Madness of King George |
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Callista
Phoenix
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Age: 27
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| Posted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:20 am Post subject: |
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That only works if you don't assume that people who would have had severe impairment without the giftedness don't simply compensate for that and end up with moderate instead. It might give you more abilities, but gifted=mild doesn't make much sense. There are plenty of people with big brains and big autism, y'know.
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exhausted
Phoenix
Joined: Jun 23, 2009
Posts: 645
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| Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Callista wrote: | | That only works if you don't assume that people who would have had severe impairment without the giftedness don't simply compensate for that and end up with moderate instead. It might give you more abilities, but gifted=mild doesn't make much sense. There are plenty of people with big brains and big autism, y'know. |
amen.
here's my thought (which i expressed on another thread): i really wish we could take all the standardized tests, give them to Angela Bassett, kick on some version of "i'm not gonna cry." and watch her burn them all.
(why? in part because i will watch Angela Bassett do just about anything.)
it occurs to me that standardized tests measure--well, not-a-whole-lot really.
gifted people "escape" labels of "gifted" because of the (frequently seen) learning disabilities often accompanying the otherwise "high iq." (it seems most of the intelligence eggs get placed in one basket.)
the same seems to be true for those on the spectrum. a lot of gifts get overlooked (IMO) because the focus is on disability. also, our various learning disabilities can "bollux" up the scores. (again: our intelligence eggs tend to get placed in one or two baskets.)
i'm not sure where i'm going with this. except that i'm kind of tired of neat little categories.
i would like services to help me with my challenges. other than that? i don't know.
i'm not sure what the labels mean. this article kind of shook me up a little. the labels seem more and more meaningless as time goes on. according to this (the article, i mean), you could pretty much "smoosh" together the traits commonly seen among the gifted and those commonly seen on the spectrum and really only have a difference of degree.
it's just that if you're gifted, your quirks should be tolerated. if you're on the spectrum--you're a budding behavioral problem.
it's all pretty arbitrary to me.
Angela Bassett--where are you? |
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fiddlerpianist
Unclassified and loving it!
Joined: May 01, 2009
Age: 32
Posts: 1637
Location: The Autistic Hinterlands
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| Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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| exhausted wrote: | | it's just that if you're gifted, your quirks should be tolerated. if you're on the spectrum--you're a budding behavioral problem. |
I think it also depends on the nature of the gifts. Having a special interest in plumbing parts is seen much less favorably than having an interest in, say, music.
I think I had it pretty easy in that regard. One could have very easily said of my youth: "He lives in his own little world, he sings to himself, he has no friends his age, he's naïve, he's clumsy, he hates loud noises... but I have never heard someone so young play the piano with such deep expression and knowledge." So would that make me "gifted" or would that make me "autistic"? I think it depends on what the terms mean and you want to perceive the person.
There's certainly more to it than that, but there is definitely a double standard.
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"That leap of logic should have broken his legs." - Janissy |
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ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
water
Joined: Jun 19, 2008
Posts: 3577
Location: Somewhere between Canada and Mexico
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| Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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| exhausted wrote: | gifted people "escape" labels of "gifted" because of the (frequently seen) learning disabilities often accompanying the otherwise "high iq." (it seems most of the intelligence eggs get placed in one basket.)
the same seems to be true for those on the spectrum. a lot of gifts get overlooked (IMO) because the focus is on disability. also, our various learning disabilities can "bollux" up the scores. (again: our intelligence eggs tend to get placed in one or two baskets.) |
It depends on severity of disability. I saw a show with an autistic teenager and he was an illustration savant yet he was mostly non verbal and laughed a lot. His artistic gifts weren't overlooked but at the same time you couldn't help notice that he was what NTs would label "disabled". He wasn't like the NTs in the way he interacted and presented himself. He didn't talk to them the way they talked to him or each other. We cannot pretend these stipulations do not exist. There is a trade-off and it impacts one's ability to use the gift and sometimes, share the gift, although I am sure he could make drawings for people while at home and either give them as presents to others or sell them without any problem. He needed a family member or someone else to manage it for him. He couldn't do this part on his own.
| Quote: | i'm not sure where i'm going with this. except that i'm kind of tired of neat little categories.
i would like services to help me with my challenges. other than that? i don't know. |
Catagories aren't exactly "neat" but they help people sort things out. There are so many different interpretations of "gifted".
| Quote: | | i'm not sure what the labels mean. this article kind of shook me up a little. the labels seem more and more meaningless as time goes on. according to this (the article, i mean), you could pretty much "smoosh" together the traits commonly seen among the gifted and those commonly seen on the spectrum and really only have a difference of degree. |
The difference is in degree. Some NTs are gifted in art and music and have no disability whatsoever while others can do the gifted part and need help with everything else. That's just reality.
| Quote: | it's just that if you're gifted, your quirks should be tolerated. if you're on the spectrum--you're a budding behavioral problem.
it's all pretty arbitrary to me.
Angela Bassett--where are you? |
You have to be pretty darn gifted to have your quirks tolerated. Depending on what the gifts are. Many people are intolerant of quirks, they make them uneasy and they want everyone to smile politely, nod, stand still and be pretty much the same. They might be in awe of someone's outstanding piano playing ability, but unless you are like them in manner of expression, communication, presentation, etc, there will always be more than a few who feel "uneasy" about you no matter what. Call it their intuition...I don't know... but I do know it doesn't take much for them to feel uneasy and make a fuss over it. |
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NOBS
Toucan
Joined: Apr 20, 2008
Age: 47
Posts: 278
Location: Alaska
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| Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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| fiddlerpianist wrote: | | exhausted wrote: | | it's just that if you're gifted, your quirks should be tolerated. if you're on the spectrum--you're a budding behavioral problem. |
I think it also depends on the nature of the gifts. Having a special interest in plumbing parts is seen much less favorably than having an interest in, say, music.
I think I had it pretty easy in that regard. One could have very easily said of my youth: "He lives in his own little world, he sings to himself, he has no friends his age, he's naïve, he's clumsy, he hates loud noises... but I have never heard someone so young play the piano with such deep expression and knowledge." So would that make me "gifted" or would that make me "autistic"? I think it depends on what the terms mean and you want to perceive the person.
There's certainly more to it than that, but there is definitely a double standard. |
You know fiddlerpianist, if you were to run into me at my local home center and attempt to explain the complexities of Mozart while I was attempting to find a part to fix my toilet, I would likely find you a major pain in my posterior. The plumbing guy, however, might seem a god at the time. On the other hand, if my choices for an evening out were an invitation to your house for a glass of red, and a musical journey through history's great composers, or going to plumbing guy's house for beer and to view his collection of antique toilets, I'm pretty sure you'd win that contest.
To answer the gifted/autistic question, once again, I'd say yes. |
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exhausted
Phoenix
Joined: Jun 23, 2009
Posts: 645
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| Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 12:15 am Post subject: |
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| ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote: | | exhausted wrote: | gifted people "escape" labels of "gifted" because of the (frequently seen) learning disabilities often accompanying the otherwise "high iq." (it seems most of the intelligence eggs get placed in one basket.)
the same seems to be true for those on the spectrum. a lot of gifts get overlooked (IMO) because the focus is on disability. also, our various learning disabilities can "bollux" up the scores. (again: our intelligence eggs tend to get placed in one or two baskets.) |
It depends on severity of disability. I saw a show with an autistic teenager and he was an illustration savant yet he was mostly non verbal and laughed a lot. His artistic gifts weren't overlooked but at the same time you couldn't help notice that he was what NTs would label "disabled". He wasn't like the NTs in the way he interacted and presented himself. He didn't talk to them the way they talked to him or each other. We cannot pretend these stipulations do not exist. There is a trade-off and it impacts one's ability to use the gift and sometimes, share the gift, although I am sure he could make drawings for people while at home and either give them as presents to others or sell them without any problem. He needed a family member or someone else to manage it for him. He couldn't do this part on his own.
| Quote: | i'm not sure where i'm going with this. except that i'm kind of tired of neat little categories.
i would like services to help me with my challenges. other than that? i don't know. |
Catagories aren't exactly "neat" but they help people sort things out. There are so many different interpretations of "gifted".
| Quote: | | i'm not sure what the labels mean. this article kind of shook me up a little. the labels seem more and more meaningless as time goes on. according to this (the article, i mean), you could pretty much "smoosh" together the traits commonly seen among the gifted and those commonly seen on the spectrum and really only have a difference of degree. |
The difference is in degree. Some NTs are gifted in art and music and have no disability whatsoever while others can do the gifted part and need help with everything else. That's just reality.
| Quote: | it's just that if you're gifted, your quirks should be tolerated. if you're on the spectrum--you're a budding behavioral problem.
it's all pretty arbitrary to me.
Angela Bassett--where are you? |
You have to be pretty darn gifted to have your quirks tolerated. Depending on what the gifts are. Many people are intolerant of quirks, they make them uneasy and they want everyone to smile politely, nod, stand still and be pretty much the same. They might be in awe of someone's outstanding piano playing ability, but unless you are like them in manner of expression, communication, presentation, etc, there will always be more than a few who feel "uneasy" about you no matter what. Call it their intuition...I don't know... but I do know it doesn't take much for them to feel uneasy and make a fuss over it. |
"you'd have to pretty darn gifted to have your quirks tolerated."
i'm not so sure. i think the language used in this article is at least somewhat reflective of real life. again, the most glaring example i can think of: a person labeled as gifted will have "understandable" issues with authority---this was definitely implied, IMO, if not said outright. a person on the spectrum will most likely simply have ODD. (oppositional defiant disorder.)
i don't mind a "category" if it helps me get services. (and maybe you're right: maybe there is nothing "neat" about categories at all.) but there are a few traits i'd really like to keep; i'd rather not have them pathologized in some way.
for me, it's about the use of language. those are my main difficulties with the thinking contained in this article. i like language to be precise and have meaning. if perspectives about a particular trait completely shift, simply because one word is used to describe them vs. another---then i start to wonder.
i'm sorry: i have to do this again--
http://www.swedish.org/16938.cfm
another thing i find kind of interesting: social deficits among the gifted are seen as a consequence of deep sensitivities. (i'm thinking of the sections on both mood disorders and relational problems.) i wonder why AS social deficits are not often characterized in the same light?
it's true, there's so much more to it than that. (ex: the difficulties reading non-verbal cues, etc.) but i think most people with AS/HFA are pretty sensitive to inconsistencies in others. i really wonder if that's where at least some of the social anxiety comes in. i think we tend to be affected by inconsistencies to a greater degree.
another thing nagging at the back of my mind has to do with the prevalence of sleeping disorders in both those labeled as "gifted" and those on the spectrum.
i think there's a lot of underlying sensitivity in AS/ASD that just isn't being discussed.
i'm also thinking of the prevalence of learning disabilities among the "gifted." (for lack of a better term.) the same is true in those on the spectrum. (ex: i'm a word demon and can analyze the $%@ out just about anything. ask me about left or right. i'm lost.)
what if the "wiring" is really not so dissimilar? this may seem off-the-subject, but bear with me: Temple Grandin likes to refer to NASA as "the greatest sheltered workshop for the socially challenged." by this, she means: "it's largely populated by auties."
in other words: a lot of us are really gifted.
it's noted again and again that AS/HFA interests are "narrow." (in real life, i don't think this is always the case. but in text book terms, that's how it's couched.) again: what if there are just trade-offs between having an extreme affinity for math, art, science---whatever it is--and being able to live with a certain social ease? for anyone? whether they're technically on the spectrum or not.
so maybe i'm contradicting myself. i'm back to the question: what if there's a continuum there? what if the dividing point between "gifted" and "AS/HFA" really isn't all that clear?
i keep coming back to that question.
and if it is just a continuum--it kind of makes the stigma fall apart. |
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fiddlerpianist
Unclassified and loving it!
Joined: May 01, 2009
Age: 32
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Location: The Autistic Hinterlands
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| Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 11:35 am Post subject: |
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| ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote: | | You have to be pretty darn gifted to have your quirks tolerated. Depending on what the gifts are. |
To clear up confusion, I propose that we not use the term "gifts" in this discussion, because a "gift" is really the same thing as a talent. A talent is something that you can do with greater facility than others. Being "gifted" may be related to being talented, but it's not the same thing at all.
The way I read it is that a "gifted" person sees and processes the world differently, quite similar to someone with an ASD but maybe to a lesser degree. It is called "gifted" for the same reasons that people with disabilities are called "special." That is to say, it's a positive spin on a difference which can be a challenge for that person. (I hope that my statement does not offend those who call themselves "special." Both "gifted" and "special" are perfectly good terms and I applaud the recognition that great things can come from differences.) One can certainly be "gifted" and talented, of course. In fact, many talents may come out of being "gifted." Talents can come out of just being "normal," too.
Whether you get labeled as "gifted" or autistic is largely a matter of certain spectrum traits being present, how noticeable they are, and how impaired the person is. That said, I do believe there is a difference between being "gifted" and having an ASD, and it's probably not solely related to severity. (Maybe I'm contradicting myself in this discussion? This is a great thread and has gotten me thinking a bit.) Brains are inordinately complex organs, and we can't comprehend all of the various permutations of various traits.
| exhausted wrote: | | and if it is just a continuum--it kind of makes the stigma fall apart. |
All models are simplifications of the real world, and continuums are no exception. The reason we model things in the first place is to help us wrap our heads around concepts. There are no absolute models. Autism itself is a model, and so is "giftedness." I believe that those models intersect in places (many places, in fact), and I do not believe that is a coincidence.
| exhausted wrote: | | what if the dividing point between "gifted" and "AS/HFA" really isn't all that clear? |
I don't think it is. All of the responses I've heard that believe it is are either vague, inconsistent, or simply arbitrary. The best you can do is judge the level of impairment for that particular person. Someone is "gifted" if they are able to get by fine in school, aren't particularly vexed about whether they make friends, and aren't suffering from Not Fitting In Syndrome. While you might clinically be able to diagnose such a person with an ASD, what good is it really going to do them? Therefore we shouldn't rush to diagnose ASD too prematurely if we don't know and cannot perceive how the child is going to make out in life with their "giftedness."
| The Swedish Medical Center wrote: | Highly gifted children often have different ways of interacting socially. Their unusual comments and jokes may be misinterpreted as signs of Asperger's disorder. People with Asperger's disorder may be gifted—especially in certain specific skills—but they do not respond as well as normal children to ordinary social or emotional cues. They may not make friends readily and often prefer to keep to themselves.
Gifted children, on the other hand, often show a great deal of concern for others and are highly sociable. If your gifted child gets along well with both adults and children, then a diagnosis of Asperger’s disorder is very unlikely. If you are concerned about your child’s socializing skills, then you may want to consult with an experienced child psychologist or psychiatrist. |
(bolding mine)
This article would lead you to believe that all people who are "gifted" are highly sociable, and I simply do not believe that is the case. There are many who are introverted who would fit the bill for being "gifted" but probably would not be impaired enough to have an ASD. What I bolded indicates that the difference is simply one of degree. Someone diagnosed with an ASD may not outwardly show as much concern for others, but it does not mean that they don't feel it.
It would be fascinating to conduct a study that looked at the enrollment rate in Gifted and Talented programs from the 80s onward in relation to those diagnosed with an ASD. I wonder what the overlap is and what the trends are.
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