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Padium
For I am The One Who Is
Joined: Dec 14, 2008
Age: 19
Posts: 2369
Location: Cambridge, Ontario
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 Posted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 11:07 pm Post subject: |
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| julebird wrote: | | GhostOfTheChameleon wrote: |
We have a women's discussion forum for the same reason we have mathematics forums that don't delete posts from anyone who isn't a mathematician. It's the topic of discussion. In that forum, you talk about things related to math. In this forum, you talk about things related to women or being a woman. The different forums exist, in my opinion, as an organizational tool to help readers and posters find the topics they're interested in, not to discriminate against people or create some kind of private sub-community.
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Um. Does anyone see the flaw in this? Mathematics is an object, we can treat it thus, talk ABOUT it. I know I'm new here but pls bear with... I'd hazard a guess that the purpose of this section isn't to talk about women, it's FOR women to talk about things that concern them/us/whatever. I know you didn't explicitly say that GhostOfTheChameleon, but could be seen as somewhat implied - and "talking about" was actually stated by someone else in this thread (cbf to go and find the quote)..
Anyway...
Try to think of it this way. In a science/math forum, the forum is open to everyone. However if someone has a specifically technical question, they might request that experts in that field only reply. Someone who is not familiar with the technicalities of that field might complicate matters further, or bring the discussion to something that is not entirely relevant. It doesn't mean the non experts are incapable of contributing, or that their contribution is invaluable, just that their contribution may not, or may be unlikely to, progress the discussion to the desired level, and could even slow it down (such as with n00b questions).
This is about efficiency. It's not that we don't value men's contributions, just that because our experiences are more closely linked in this one particular way, women are more able to get to the point on certain issues faster. Perhaps if a male truly has something valuable to add, he could start a new thread addressing the issue, or still try to contribute but be prepared for whatever response, especially if there was a warning at the start of the thread.
I think it's fair enough if someone has been sufficiently notified that they be prepared for the consequences of their actions, no matter the situation. And anyone who feels they can't contribute but still wishes to is welcome to start a new thread to address the topic, in which they are perfectly welcome to state who they would prefer to hear responses from. |
Counter example: You have a post about menstrual pain that is clearly labeled female responses only, specifically because you want expert advice. A male gynecologist comes and posts a reply based on his knowledge in the field. Which of the following do you do? 1) Ignore his post or petition to get it deleted because he is male and clearly not an expert. 2) Attack his post because he is male and clearly not an expert. 3) Listen to his post and trust that he knows exactly what he is talking about because he is a gynecologist and clearly an expert. Or 4) Read his post, and apply a female perspective to what he has said, as although he is a gynecologist, and has to be an expert by law to carry such a title, but is male and cannot possibly understand how the female perspective changes how it is perceived, thus getting the most possible out of what he said.
Being MTF transexual, I am kinda like the male gynecologist in that situation. The difference is I have acquired all my knowledge through more hours of research on the topic since I first discovered the search engine on the internet as a result of me wanting to know what life would be like for me after my operation (of course later I discovered that some of the things I researched don't apply, but I still made myself an expert on them before I knew that), so I have a knowledge matching his in most aspects. On top of that, I have the female perpective, I have had it since birth, and up until it became obvious to my dad I wasn't normal in terms or Gender Identity and Sexual Orientation, he kept trying to steer me away from being feminine. At puberty, he associated it with homosexuality (close, but still wrong). Then I finally came out to my parents as trans (they think I am confused, and will support me in getting help, and in whatever decision is determined to be best for me). Online I am known as trans in all communities that I was previously in, and are not connected to my real life, I am known as female in all communities I have joined since coming out. I am also working on changing my online identities in those areas directly related to me in real life by replacing them with a new account (such as my email and facebook). Of the people I know in real life, only one of my friends knows, and she accepts me as female, and my step sister also accepts me as female. They haven't quite switche over to using my new name when appropriate though, but that will come in time. Back on topic: In a year or less, my bodily experiences will also be more female, as in that time I will start actually changing my body to become more feminine through hormones and surgeries. Now I will not experience all the same bodily experiences associated with being female, but on the same hand, people born female bodied will never experience the difficulties directly associated with having an artificially female body. And while our experiences are not exactly the same in terms of the body, our experiences still overlap, and the areas where they will be different, females can help me because of similarities in things they have experienced, and I can help you from similarities in what I have experienced, its not directly applicable, but with knowledge on how to cross apply the experience it is of help.
On that note, I already know exactly where I stand. Being transexual is about being who I am, but because it is not normal, it becomes a politics issue with everything I do. I will not post somewhere where I feel my input would be unnecessary, or where it wouldn't be wise for me to comment. This is because in everything I do, I have to balance the politics of my actions, otherwise, I just end up creating a harmful situation for myself. On that note, there have ben topics where it would have been bad politics for me to reply, even though I felt more than qualified to reply, but because of balancing politics, I decided against it. Despite how I was born, there is one thing I never truly was, and never will be, and that is a man... Also to not, I often get pegged as a feminist in most online communities where I am known as female. This is because I am feminist. I believe strongly in women's rights, always have. Feminism to me is about the right to choose one's own destiny, men always had this right, we women had to work hard for it, and now that we have it, we have to work hard to make sure it is enforced.
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My skin is not my own --- Leto Atreides, son of Maud'dib
Auguries of destruction make a lullaby for rebirth |
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julebird
Emu Egg
Joined: Jun 09, 2009
Age: 21
Posts: 4
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| Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 5:38 am Post subject: |
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Re Padium, it was ment as a simplistic illustrative generalisation.
Definitely didn't mean to imply that women are the only people who can be experts on things relating to women. Certainly in an ideal world if a medical question was asked a related medical experts opinion would be appreciated. By all means, if a guy thinks his input will be valuable to the discussion, I say go for it, all I was saying is that anyone who was asked explicitly not to post and does anyway should take into account that they were asked not to and be accepting of the response they receive, positive, negative or neutral.
In answer to your question, firstly I think there are two kinds of "expert" here that could get easily confused. The literal kind, doctors medical professionals etc, and the non literal which was meant as analogous, but not equivalent, to the formal expert. I hope that makes sense? For instance the only person who is an expert on your life experience is yourself. The only people who can be experts on what it is like to be a natural born female are natural born females - in that sense of expert rather than the hard formal sense.
Now to answer... close to 4. If the problem seemed serious and I wanted a medical opinion, I would prob ask my dr. If I was just curious as to other women's experiences with that particular menstral pain, and how they handled it, I would probably not greatly desire a man's input, unless their wife or daughter or something had had a similar experience. With anyone, male or female, I would most likely take into account their input as long as it was not offensive, and respond appropriately. In this situation I would probably be fishing for anecdotal information rather than purely factual, and so a dr's opinion would be valued but maybe not quite what I was looking for.
Well done for choosing to be yourself and not be tied down by others perceptions of how you should be. You're right in that I will never experience being female in the same way you will. I mean, are there things you think you can only really talk about with other MTF transexuals? Your bodily changes, other people's perceptions of you, their reaction to you? Situations where you might get frustrated with natural born physical females, or any other gender? In my opinion the transgender experience adds a whole nother dimension to gender identity, enriching it thus.
Soz that was longer than intended. Hopefully it illustrated the point a bit better though. |
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Padium
For I am The One Who Is
Joined: Dec 14, 2008
Age: 19
Posts: 2369
Location: Cambridge, Ontario
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| Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 8:04 am Post subject: |
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| julebird wrote: | | Re Padium, it was ment as a simplistic illustrative generalisation |
Generalizations never take into account all possibilities, that is why it is best to avoid them. My parents generalized me as male for how many years, and all it did was make my life worse...
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Definitely didn't mean to imply that women are the only people who can be experts on things relating to women. Certainly in an ideal world if a medical question was asked a related medical experts opinion would be appreciated. By all means, if a guy thinks his input will be valuable to the discussion, I say go for it, all I was saying is that anyone who was asked explicitly not to post and does anyway should take into account that they were asked not to and be accepting of the response they receive, positive, negative or neutral.
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And if they want to reply, they have to know the ground on which they stand, know themselves, and know the people they are replying to. Knowing their ground and knowing themselves but not knowing who they are replying to, their response will not be as useful. knowing only the ground on which they stand, and their response will be useless but not offensive, not knowing any of these, and they are just making a fool of themselves.
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In answer to your question, firstly I think there are two kinds of "expert" here that could get easily confused. The literal kind, doctors medical professionals etc, and the non literal which was meant as analogous, but not equivalent, to the formal expert. I hope that makes sense? For instance the only person who is an expert on your life experience is yourself. The only people who can be experts on what it is like to be a natural born female are natural born females - in that sense of expert rather than the hard formal sense.
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It was a rhetorical question meant to point out that generalizations can be a bad thing. As for the bodily experiences, when all is said and done, there will only be two categories where I won't share the same bodily experiences, the menstrual cycle (although if i really wanted to, i could have a hormone regime emulate it for the primary psychological effects), and child-bearing (although with recent advancements in medical technology, this is becoming a real possibility, and might be available to me by the time I want children). Everything else is either hormonally or surgically induced, or I have already felt as it is a part of perspective.
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Now to answer... close to 4. If the problem seemed serious and I wanted a medical opinion, I would prob ask my dr. If I was just curious as to other women's experiences with that particular menstral pain, and how they handled it, I would probably not greatly desire a man's input, unless their wife or daughter or something had had a similar experience. With anyone, male or female, I would most likely take into account their input as long as it was not offensive, and respond appropriately. In this situation I would probably be fishing for anecdotal information rather than purely factual, and so a dr's opinion would be valued but maybe not quite what I was looking for.
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Don't discount what people have to say before they say it. Some people will be idiots, but at least give them a chance to show that they are such, and then you can easily discount what they have to say, but some people actually do meet the three things I mentioned above, and thus will have a legitimate response that is useful, and by jumping to a conclusion early, you have just ignored what could be the best (although that is unlikely) advice, or even advice you might not have otherwise thought of.
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Well done for choosing to be yourself and not be tied down by others perceptions of how you should be. You're right in that I will never experience being female in the same way you will. I mean, are there things you think you can only really talk about with other MTF transexuals? Your bodily changes, other people's perceptions of you, their reaction to you? Situations where you might get frustrated with natural born physical females, or any other gender? In my opinion the transgender experience adds a whole nother dimension to gender identity, enriching it thus.
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I am on a transgender forum for these issues, and to be perfectly honest, a lot of the issues I will have that are not political, I can get advice on here faster than I can there.
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Soz that was longer than intended. Hopefully it illustrated the point a bit better though. |
Well, mine is a little longer than expected, but now to get to the point. Men certainly don't have the God given right to be here, but that doesn't mean they can't either. All it means is that they should either contribute thoughtfully and usefully where appropriate, or not contribute at all. As for transexuals, all transexuals will have insights most people won't, as they had to deal with 2 major things, suppressing what gender there body was born, and changing their gender to match what their mind is. In the example of FTM, they have tried to suppress physical femininity, and will likely (although I cannot say for certain) have more experience with suppressing obvious female traits, which may be usefull and relevant here. MTFs have had physical male traits, often including those involving hormones, and can offer insight into the male world, with a female perspective, as well as eventually having the physical bodily aspects of femininity in a slightly different way that also offer new insights.
_________________
My skin is not my own --- Leto Atreides, son of Maud'dib
Auguries of destruction make a lullaby for rebirth |
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trekster
Blue Jay
Joined: Jun 23, 2007
Posts: 80
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| Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2009 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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| The womens discussion forum is because there appear to be less female autistics than male ones. |
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sinsboldly
Free Range Aspie
Joined: Nov 22, 2006
Age: 59
Posts: 13237
Location: Oregon, USA
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| Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2009 8:21 pm Post subject: |
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| trekster wrote: | | The womens discussion forum is because there appear to be less female autistics than male ones. |
actually there were a Men's Discussion section and a Woman's Discussion section but the Men's Discussion section was made into the InDepth Adult Discussion section about two years ago.
there has been a sticky of a Men's Discussion thread in the InDepth Adult Discussion area, at this link http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt101191.html
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where sin abounds, grace abounds the more;
Non omnis moriar |
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CattusMaximus
Emu Egg
Joined: Sep 24, 2009
Age: 24
Posts: 7
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| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 9:17 pm Post subject: |
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Wow...
The moderator stickied a troll thread.
| Quote: | | If a woman posts a thread and states she does not want a males opinion on the matter, males posts will be deleted. |
| Quote: | | To be honest a lot of the male replies in here have been total rubbish, and see no reason for anyone to find a problem with this rule. |
Now come on, you are just being a fascist and your post reeks of wanting to have a special club where one group has special deletion powers over another.
Why not just simply state this forum is moderated more heavily than the others and that higher standards are expected?
Instead you chose to attack an entire gender. Even the title is disrespectful. |
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veiledexpressions
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Joined: Oct 24, 2009
Age: 26
Posts: 69
Location: Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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I say, if the boys wish to discuss periods, uterine discomfort, ovarian cysts, cervical issues, and tampons, they can stay.
I'm sure they'll all find it utterly fascinating. :p |
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sinsboldly
Free Range Aspie
Joined: Nov 22, 2006
Age: 59
Posts: 13237
Location: Oregon, USA
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| Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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| veiledexpressions wrote: | I say, if the boys wish to discuss periods, uterine discomfort, ovarian cysts, cervical issues, and tampons, they can stay.
I'm sure they'll all find it utterly fascinating. :p |
and bloating, lots and lots of bloating. . . 
_________________
where sin abounds, grace abounds the more;
Non omnis moriar |
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