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AardvarkGoodSwimmer
Snowy Owl
Joined: Apr 27, 2009
Age: 46
Posts: 162
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 Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:53 pm Post subject: |
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As far as going formal with ADA,
I have sat in with a friend as he appealed a section 8 (?) housing decision. I really felt I was a coach to my friend, I helped him play his A game, and I encouraged the lady with housing group to be at her best, most humanistic, and remember why she's in this job, and that my friend is not just a pest or case load.
I felt it changed the whole dynamic.
So, although I don't have experience with ADA, I recommend that you consider having a friend/advocate sitting in with you every step of the process.
And in zen-like fashion---if possible---try and view it as a process and good stuff can happen at every step. And that the semester is still eminently winnable!
Good luck! Please keep us informed.
And you other guys, please contribute if you can. |
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Sparrowrose
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Joined: Oct 12, 2009
Age: 42
Posts: 73
Location: Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 11:44 pm Post subject: |
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| AardvarkGoodSwimmer wrote: | | So, although I don't have experience with ADA, I recommend that you consider having a friend/advocate sitting in with you every step of the process. |
This is going to sound pathetic: I don't have any friends.
Okay, I have friends, but they're all online and live far away.
I have a husband who is too disabled to leave the house. When he could leave the house, he advocated for me with the bank and with a physical therapist. Both times went poorly and nothing I needed was achieved.
My diagnosing doctor is two towns away which is why I don't get to see her anymore and why it would be far too expensive for me to ask her to travel out to advocate.
It's all on me.
_________________
"In the end, we decide if we're remembered for what happened to us or for what we did with it."
-- Randy K. Milholland |
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AardvarkGoodSwimmer
Snowy Owl
Joined: Apr 27, 2009
Age: 46
Posts: 162
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| Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 9:53 pm Post subject: |
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Okay, so you might have to go this one alone. You can still be successful. Take it in steps (pull back when someone is unreasonable), and see how it goes.
And I have thought of one possible accomodation. I like politics. If I copiously take notes it helps me concentrate in a more skimming manner, and I generally do not talk when I'm taking notes. And sometimes I'm just writing down phrases of what a person is saying, and then phrases of what the next person is saying.
And later when I'm looking over the notes, it helps me to remember a lot more and at that point I could write a narrative. I have done this at city council, Green Party, Republican Party (I'm polite and respectful and tell people I'm more of a moderate and more of an independent).
So, theoretically at least, the professor could count as participation you turning in a medium-length summary of what happened during each week's discussion. |
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Sparrowrose
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Joined: Oct 12, 2009
Age: 42
Posts: 73
Location: Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 10:27 pm Post subject: |
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| AardvarkGoodSwimmer wrote: | | So, theoretically at least, the professor could count as participation you turning in a medium-length summary of what happened during each week's discussion. |
I would have to talk to her first to get her permission. I think it would be hard to get her permission because we're supposed to turn in a written commentary on the reading a few days before the class discussion and she told the class a few weeks ago that she was marking off participation for some people because they were saying good things in their commentaries but then not introducing those ideas to the group discussion. So it seems that it is really important to her that we talk about things in the discussion time, maybe even more important than writing about them.
_________________
"In the end, we decide if we're remembered for what happened to us or for what we did with it."
-- Randy K. Milholland |
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AardvarkGoodSwimmer
Snowy Owl
Joined: Apr 27, 2009
Age: 46
Posts: 162
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| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Sparrowrose wrote: | | . . . and she told the class a few weeks ago that she was marking off participation for some people because they were saying good things in their commentaries but then not introducing those ideas to the group discussion . . . |
The curious thing is, this sounds like clunky communication on her part, expecting too much, expecting good things to follow directly and automatically from rules and goals, and a style that's perhaps even a little bit Aspie (perhaps reached by a different pathway--Interesting!)
I have seen a ton of panel discussions on CSpan, as well as a fair number in real life, and most of them just aren't particularly good.
The magic that happens (only occasionally, for you can't force it) is if it's just a single person giving a speech. That is more intimate, more personal. And, incidentally, much more in line with Aspie communication style.
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Okay, there's a reasonable chance she's hip to ADA and reasonable accomodations, and if you just broach it in a medium way.
'I guess I'm borderline. I might have Asperger's. I might not. Either way, I would hope I would be treated with respect.' [that's what I might say. You'll of course have to find what's best for you, but I do recommend short to medium without too much buildup]
She might pick up on this, especially since you've turned in good written work. She might not. And I guess you need a fall back position if she doesn't (my general advice then is to keep it real short and get out of that room quickly).
On the positive side, it sounds like she wants the discussions to be real and to amount to something.
On the negative side, I kind of gather that you have not been accorded full respect in these discussion seminars, and that's certainly not the way things should be. |
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AardvarkGoodSwimmer
Snowy Owl
Joined: Apr 27, 2009
Age: 46
Posts: 162
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| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 6:17 pm Post subject: Re: difficulties in discussion seminar class |
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| Sparrowrose wrote: | | . . . Last week the prof commented to the whole class that we need to remember to contribute the ideas from our commentaries to the group discussion but that just adds another layer of difficulty for me because then I'm both trying to find a way to insert myself into the conversation AND trying to find an opening to insert ideas from my commentary into the conversation. . . . |
This is highly perceptive of you, recognizing that there are layers of complexity, but it's kind of like trying to play poker at the expert level all at once, and you shouldn't have to work that hard! Yeah, you can read the book by Doyle Brunson, and this book on tells by Mike Caro, but you can't implement it all at once. You need a somewhat forgiving environment so you can learn as you go along (in poker, that means a big enough bankroll!).
Or, you could watch instructional videos on snow skiing, but you still need soft snow (or padding for hips and shoulders, or a harness on an artificial slope) so you can make mistakes along the way.
So you interrupt. So you blurt out. So what? It shouldn't be that big a deal.
It sounds like this program has a mentality of scarcity, rather than a mentality of 'plenty of work, glad to have one more person helping out.' Admittedly, that is probably the ideal. Even geology during its hey day when plate tectonics was new and fresh, probably had various forms of dirty competition, that's a shame, but it probably did. Okay, so ignore the guy who ambushed you, and try and be open to the possibility that some of the other students might be thoroughly reasonable individuals. |
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Sparrowrose
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Joined: Oct 12, 2009
Age: 42
Posts: 73
Location: Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 11:37 pm Post subject: |
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| AardvarkGoodSwimmer wrote: |
Okay, there's a reasonable chance she's hip to ADA and reasonable accomodations, and if you just broach it in a medium way.
'I guess I'm borderline. I might have Asperger's. I might not. Either way, I would hope I would be treated with respect.' [that's what I might say. You'll of course have to find what's best for you, but I do recommend short to medium without too much buildup] |
I wouldn't say that because I do have a diagnosis of Asperger's and pretending I don't know whether I have it or not could backfire later if it comes out that I knew all along. Better to keep my mouth shut than give half-truths.
_________________
"In the end, we decide if we're remembered for what happened to us or for what we did with it."
-- Randy K. Milholland |
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Sparrowrose
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Joined: Oct 12, 2009
Age: 42
Posts: 73
Location: Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 11:39 pm Post subject: Re: difficulties in discussion seminar class |
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| AardvarkGoodSwimmer wrote: | | Okay, so ignore the guy who ambushed you, and try and be open to the possibility that some of the other students might be thoroughly reasonable individuals. |
The guy who ambushed me was in a different seminar class, last year. That seminar class was much easier for me to handle because we each had to do reports on different things and then present those reports to the rest of the class. There would be some question and answer and some discussion but mostly it was each of us taking turns reporting and teaching the class.
This seminar class is completely different and there really are no prepared reports like that. It's just a three-hour-long conversation.
_________________
"In the end, we decide if we're remembered for what happened to us or for what we did with it."
-- Randy K. Milholland |
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AardvarkGoodSwimmer
Snowy Owl
Joined: Apr 27, 2009
Age: 46
Posts: 162
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 8:28 pm Post subject: |
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It occurs to me that at the beginning of the discussion or after a break, you probably have more of an open venue to introduce a new topic.
Also, what if you broke it into four categories (for example), and had brief ways to introduce a topic from your writing for each category.
(Again, it shouldn't be this much work. But it sounds like the teacher is kind of expecting the magic to happen each and every week.) |
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Sparrowrose
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Joined: Oct 12, 2009
Age: 42
Posts: 73
Location: Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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I don't understand the part about categories, but last Thursday I did jump in quickly at the beginning of class with a question about the reading. I noticed it did two things. 1. I got some participation in before things got overwhelming (and got an answer to something I actually didn't understand); and 2. I don't know if it was because my question set the tone or if it was because no one else understood the reading either, but the conversation was down on a level that was much easier for me to understand last week.
People weren't going off on things I couldn't comprehend and losing me in their dust. Either others had a hard time understanding the text, too, or my "stupid" question (because it was a very basic question and I even said, "I'm sorry if this is a stupid question but I really didn't get this") made everyone else feel more comfortable talking normally instead of "playing graduate student" and trying to show how brilliant they were.
It's a good thing I got my question in early, too, because we didn't have a break. Sometimes we don't get one -- we just go straight through the three hours and if someone has to go to the bathroom or something they have to just leave in the middle of the conversation.
I've got my fingers crossed that I have an easier time this week, too. But I haven't been able to come up with a good question or short comment to get things started. And it was just luck that I got a chance to do it last week because usually what happens is the professor makes a few opening announcements and then turns the class over to whichever student is leading the class that week and that student makes a bunch of comments about the reading and then gets the conversation started and keeps it going if there's a lull. So normally I wouldn't have a chance to start things but for some reason, people were all just sitting around when class started so I took my chance and jumped in, figuring if I was out of order I could always apologize and say I hadn't realized the class had officially started yet and was just talking before class.
Sparrow
_________________
"In the end, we decide if we're remembered for what happened to us or for what we did with it."
-- Randy K. Milholland |
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Sparrowrose
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Joined: Oct 12, 2009
Age: 42
Posts: 73
Location: Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:16 pm Post subject: |
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update: yesterday I was able to participate and stay engaged for the entire class. It really took a lot out of me and when the class was over I was exhausted and my whole body hurt and I barely made it home . . . but I was able to participate on what I hope was an acceptable level.
This might be one of those skills that I finally learn just as the situation ends. If that's the case, I'll have to learn it all over again the next time I have a class like this (my classes for next semester are all regular "raise your hand" classes.) I find when it takes me this long to begin to learn a skill, the "half life" is pretty bad (the amount of time it takes for me to start losing what I've gained in the skill.)
That's been a frustration for me. For example, I *finally* learned how to not get lost when leaving one of my classes this semester . . . and the semester is well over half-way done. Now I don't get lost leaving that class but soon the class will be over and I won't have another class in that room for so long that I'll have to start again from scratch in learning how not to get lost when I leave the class.
Or it took me three months of classes to get my daily/weekly routine going smoothly. I have the hardest time with transitions into and out of semesters and all the changes from day to day with classes and times and from semester to semester. I have a hard time transitioning into summer vacation and then when I'm finally beginning to feel rested, it's time to transition back into classes again. I had a REALLY hard time with that this semester and felt like I lost a lot of basic skills and general level of functioning with the stress of all the changes. I was crying every day, almost all day for many weeks into the semester from it all.
But there's the good news, anyway -- I couldn't explain how I'm doing it but I'm somehow s-l-o-w-l-y getting accommodated to this new, very difficult, discussion style of class.
Sparrow
_________________
"In the end, we decide if we're remembered for what happened to us or for what we did with it."
-- Randy K. Milholland |
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kraken
Blue Jay
Joined: May 11, 2008
Posts: 84
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| Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 4:49 am Post subject: |
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| Congratulations, sparrowrose. I know that there are a lot of people in my classes who have difficulty with the seminar format, even without diagnoses, so you are certainly not alone. It sounds like you are on the right path, though you may want to stay in contact with your professor in order to keep a good sense of how you are progressing. It also helps your professor to notice that you ARE progressing. |
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AardvarkGoodSwimmer
Snowy Owl
Joined: Apr 27, 2009
Age: 46
Posts: 162
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| Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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| kraken wrote: | | . . . It sounds like you are on the right path, though you may want to stay in contact with your professor in order to keep a good sense of how you are progressing. It also helps your professor to notice that you ARE progressing. |
And you want to do this in a very "nonclunky" way, maybe something like
'You know, at times I find the seminar style to be a very challenging style. . . '
That is, underplay the hand.
For realistically, something as difficult as this, you cannot make promises. You will likely have your good days and your bad days. Contributing to seminars is very much a heuristic skill, not an algorithmic skill.
And you want to continue to turn in good papers, perhaps sometimes even slightly longer than the assigned length, so that your professor will have every reason to give you a good grade, and a hard time justifying a bad grade. |
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Sparrowrose
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Joined: Oct 12, 2009
Age: 42
Posts: 73
Location: Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 8:46 pm Post subject: |
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| AardvarkGoodSwimmer wrote: | | And you want to continue to turn in good papers, perhaps sometimes even slightly longer than the assigned length, so that your professor will have every reason to give you a good grade, and a hard time justifying a bad grade. |
We don't do actual papers, jut brief commentaries (for which I will get in trouble if I make them longer than requested.) The class is all about the reading and the discussion. The written commentaries are 10% of the total grade.
Sparrow
_________________
"In the end, we decide if we're remembered for what happened to us or for what we did with it."
-- Randy K. Milholland |
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AardvarkGoodSwimmer
Snowy Owl
Joined: Apr 27, 2009
Age: 46
Posts: 162
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| Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 9:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Sparrowrose wrote: | | update: yesterday I was able to participate and stay engaged for the entire class. It really took a lot out of me and when the class was over I was exhausted and my whole body hurt and I barely made it home . . . |
Maybe kind of like a basketball coach. And even though the game is only around two hours, the guy or gal coaching is absolutely exhausted at the end of the game.
It's also like Geoff Colvin in the book "Talent is Overrated." He puts a lot of emphasis on deliberative practice, and that takes so much sustained concentration that you can only do it for a couple of hours, and then you're basically shot for the day.
Okay, as far as the rhythm of college. I also struggle with that a lot. I try and do the class right, and mid-way even the professor seems to switch to just going through the motions.
My first semester in college, way back in 1982 when I was 19 years old, my dorm roommate always insulted me (looking back he had some real problems at home). One time I said, "I think Rick* looks like an elephant." Just to stand up to him in front of two other people who were hanging out in our room. To soften the insults and to make them ridiculous. He insisted on me standing up and physically took off my glasses (oh, yeah, he was considerably larger than me). I matter-of-factly took them back saying, "Only assholes fight over something like that."
The two people, kind of friends in my room, later repeated that, somewhat on my side but they didn't do anything at the time, and it would have been so easy for them to gentlify the situation, but they didn't. (In some stupid ways the situation was more macho than high school. It was like a recourse to junior high.)
The rule for weekly papers in philosophy class was "the most important part of the class and therefore ungraded." Then one week the teaching assistant gave back the papers to me and another student and said they would not be accepted. We were two of the more serious students, so obviously the fact that we tried something different was held against us. I got a B for the course even though I put a lot into it. Looking back, I think this teaching assistant probably graded a lot of the final papers. Even now, I'm not sure how I could talk to the professor, 'now, you said . . . and I like Jane* (teaching assistant), I have learned a whole lot from her sesssions . . . so you see the dilemma' I'm not sure I could pull that off even today.
And the groups, entrepreneurship club, political groups, etc., perennial disappointment (and the atheist club, okay to put it out there, and in some ways that was the biggest disapppointment of all). It's like the leader almost immediately feels overwhelmed and tries to really tail back on what the group is going to do. And has no idea of delegation.
So, I too really struggle with rhythm and finding the positives.
Okay, for me between semesters, maybe my own intellectual projects where I start early in the day, but I also give myself permission to quit early. No preconditions, many, many fewer self-imposed obligations. If I move laterally, that's probably a good thing. |
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