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Awesomelyglorious
Destroyer of worlds, reaver of souls
Joined: Dec 18, 2005
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Location: Omnipresent
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 Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 3:15 pm Post subject: Aliens, AIs, Freaks, and personhood |
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How should we consider the personhood(for legal/social situations) for beings such as alien life-forms, artificial intelligences, or genetically/physiologically altered creatures?
What kind of qualities would we have to consider? Are there specific cognitive structures that are needed, or specific external actions? Is the quality of "consciousness" relevant? And if so, how could it ever be proven to exist in any being? How much of a similarity is necessary to our own methods of thinking, and how much divergence is tolerated? Can a being be human while not qualifying for our legal/social view of personhood? Could any of these creatures ever be considered equal to a human, or even more valuable than a human? How does this example apply to the idea of neurodiversity? How different can a mind be while still being acceptable? Should other minds be systematically destroyed in a genocidal manner under any circumstances? What circumstances? If not, then why not?
Any additional thoughts that come up?
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TallyMan
Ghost in the machine
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Age: 149
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| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 3:26 pm Post subject: |
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Sounds like a real can of worms. Of course you could also look at it from the opposite end and wonder what AI's, aliens etc would consider about human personhood. Humans may be nothing more important than cattle in their eyes to be herded and slaughtered as required.
I think that when/if there are other life forms, alien, artificial etc that have an equal or higher level of cognisance than humans the philosophical and moral ideas of "personhood" may for all practical purposes be ignored in preference for what is practical or of xenophobic interest to the majority or most powerful party. And while philosophers debate this there will be inter-lifeform war.
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pakled
"Bless his Heart"
Joined: Nov 13, 2007
Age: 52
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| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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Well, first there would need to be an establishment of diplomatic relations, with reciprocal ambassadors, embassies, trade agreements, and bureaucrats...then as long as they have legitmate passports, I-9's, etc., what's the problem?
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Awesomelyglorious
Destroyer of worlds, reaver of souls
Joined: Dec 18, 2005
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Location: Omnipresent
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| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Tallyman wrote: | | Of course you could also look at it from the opposite end and wonder what AI's, aliens etc would consider about human personhood. Humans may be nothing more important than cattle in their eyes to be herded and slaughtered as required. |
Either perspective is valid, part of the issue is if there is a specific notion of personhood that can be applied to all, and/or what qualities work enough from whatever perspective. We might just see AIs as programs and machines to be used.
| Quote: | | I think that when/if there are other life forms, alien, artificial etc that have an equal or higher level of cognisance than humans the philosophical and moral ideas of "personhood" may for all practical purposes be ignored in preference for what is practical or of xenophobic interest to the majority or most powerful party. |
Well, you know, there are always two questions: what should be done, and what will be done. I am only concerned about the former, because the latter is utterly unknowable, as it is based upon whatever historical facts there are, whatever cultural movements there are, etc.
| pakled wrote: | | Well, first there would need to be an establishment of diplomatic relations, with reciprocal ambassadors, embassies, trade agreements, and bureaucrats...then as long as they have legitmate passports, I-9's, etc., what's the problem? |
Only for aliens, not for creatures like cyborgs, genetically created lizard-men, or C3PO.
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TallyMan
Ghost in the machine
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| Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Awesomelyglorious wrote: | | Tallyman wrote: | | Of course you could also look at it from the opposite end and wonder what AI's, aliens etc would consider about human personhood. Humans may be nothing more important than cattle in their eyes to be herded and slaughtered as required. |
Either perspective is valid, part of the issue is if there is a specific notion of personhood that can be applied to all, and/or what qualities work enough from whatever perspective. We might just see AIs as programs and machines to be used. |
Undoubtedly, that is how slaves were once perceived, objects to be used. If man creates AI he will also feel that it is an object, no matter how smart. Though this could depend on context. People may be more likely to "grant" personhood to a humanoid looking robot (think Commander Data) than to other objects. Did you ever see the "talky toaster" episode of Red Dwarf? An artificial intelligence embedded into a toaster. It could discuss lots of things, especially if they were bread related. Would people grant their toaster "personhood" and "liberty" if it demanded it?
How might AI view humanity? What if humans are just thought of as complex hydrocarbons or meat? Intrinsically inferior to their "pure" nature?
Personally I don't think an encounter between humans and another intelligent life form will necessary work out well - what they consider important may differ to what humans hold so. Life, liberty freedom etc may be alien concepts to them so to speak. If their intelligence is vastly superior to that of humans they may see humans as little more developed than ants and of no interest or consequence to them and stamp us out underfoot on a whim.
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TheOddGoat
Velociraptor
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Age: 18
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| Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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Let me be the first to say...
"fookin' prawns" |
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sartresue
Radical Aspergian
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| Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 2:30 pm Post subject: |
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Personification topic
I am reading a book now that argues against chimpanzees being designated as human, though chimps apparently share 98.6% of our genetics. The premise is that despite our similarities, this does not add up to personhood for our nearest primate relative. (This is no way means that any animal should be mistreated. But chimpanzees are not to be considered persons in the same breath as Homo Sapiens Sapiens, according to Jeremy Taylor, author of Not a Chimp: The hunt to find the genes that make us human, Oxford University Press, Oxford, 2009).
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Awe-Tistic Whirlwind
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Asmodeus
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 25, 2009
Posts: 1060
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| Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 8:56 pm Post subject: |
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| TheOddGoat wrote: | Let me be the first to say...
"fookin' prawns" |
Beat me to it.
Also consciousness, and usually more specifically theory of mind, is usually brought into consideration in such cases. Abortion comes to mind.
Ultimately it's considered by the government and law of wherever it crops up, and so I could only predict:
Aliens - Turns out like District 9, depending on how organised the aliens are.
AI - If it's one of those the last invention man ever makes things and it's self aware, it'll make our decisions from then on in, if it's a human brain virtualised, it could go either way.
genetically/physiologically altered creatures? - Consciousness, theory of mind. Unless around average human intelligence it'd probably retain animal rights unless people got really riled up about it. |
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codarac
Velociraptor
Joined: Oct 29, 2006
Posts: 451
Location: UK
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| Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 11:21 am Post subject: Re: Aliens, AIs, Freaks, and personhood |
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| Awesomelyglorious wrote: | How should we consider the personhood(for legal/social situations) for beings such as alien life-forms, artificial intelligences, or genetically/physiologically altered creatures?
What kind of qualities would we have to consider? Are there specific cognitive structures that are needed, or specific external actions? Is the quality of "consciousness" relevant? And if so, how could it ever be proven to exist in any being? How much of a similarity is necessary to our own methods of thinking, and how much divergence is tolerated? Can a being be human while not qualifying for our legal/social view of personhood? Could any of these creatures ever be considered equal to a human, or even more valuable than a human? |
All discrimination is wrong.
As long as androids, cyborgs and alien life-forms share our values of tolerance and fair-play, that's all that matters.
We shouldn't worry if the human race goes extinct and is replaced by sentient vacuum cleaners, as long as liberal democracy is preserved.
Most people agree with me on this, don't they? |
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