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Dhawal
Phoenix
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Age: 36
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Location: Ahmedabad, India

PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 5:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MissConstrue wrote:
That's good to know.

It's not just the western media however, I knew a guy from Mumbai who was always complaining about how horrid the caste systems over there were. I guess it depends on which region you're in....I'm assuming.

Well, the caste system in cities like Mumbai is less horrid than the racism in western countries (This I've heard from Indians living there Smile ).
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Roman
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dhawal wrote:
MissConstrue wrote:
That's good to know.

It's not just the western media however, I knew a guy from Mumbai who was always complaining about how horrid the caste systems over there were. I guess it depends on which region you're in....I'm assuming.

Well, the caste system in cities like Mumbai is less horrid than the racism in western countries (This I've heard from Indians living there Smile ).


An Indian would not be an objective source since he tolerates the racism of his own country better than the one of others, which is typical of anyone, Inidan or Westerner.

Besides, in Western countries they are so preoccupied of getting rid of racism that they keep talking of just how racist they are, which ultimately solidifies their image as such. Thus, ironically, a truly racist country would not repute itself as such, since it won't be talking so much about it.
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Roman
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dhawal wrote:
MissConstrue wrote:
Swerve wrote:
daer god, india Embarassed do they have the internet there yet?


Apparently since most businesses have been outsourced there. Other than that it is probably available only to those of the upper caste....that is if there are still hindus around.


Some people are going to die of shock if they visit India Smile
All these impressions/opinions must be there because of the western media over-focusing on caste system in India. Hindus make up for 80% of India's population, and yet casteism exists only in rural areas (even there it's dying out). In cities it's not there anywhere, except in the minds of a very small number of people.

P.S. I am a lower caste Hindu, and I've been using the internet since 1998. Actually I belong to an untouchable caste LOL. Stop watching your local news documentaries !!


I have heard about untoucheable beggers though. Are they basically living in very rural areas? Is it that they simply never heard that if they were to simply move to large cities their fate would be completely different? Or do they simply not have money to move, which forces them to stay in these rural areas and thus continue to be victims of caste system?
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MissConstrue
~Meow Clawdius~
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dhawal wrote:
MissConstrue wrote:
That's good to know.

It's not just the western media however, I knew a guy from Mumbai who was always complaining about how horrid the caste systems over there were. I guess it depends on which region you're in....I'm assuming.

Well, the caste system in cities like Mumbai is less horrid than the racism in western countries (This I've heard from Indians living there Smile ).


No Dhawal..western countries are not like that.

IMO, racism is universal and there is a law against racism and other discriminations such sexism, homophobia, religion etc in most western countries.
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MissConstrue
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Roman wrote:
Dhawal wrote:
MissConstrue wrote:
That's good to know.

It's not just the western media however, I knew a guy from Mumbai who was always complaining about how horrid the caste systems over there were. I guess it depends on which region you're in....I'm assuming.

Well, the caste system in cities like Mumbai is less horrid than the racism in western countries (This I've heard from Indians living there Smile ).


An Indian would not be an objective source since he tolerates the racism of his own country better than the one of others, which is typical of anyone, Inidan or Westerner.

Besides, in Western countries they are so preoccupied of getting rid of racism that they keep talking of just how racist they are, which ultimately solidifies their image as such. Thus, ironically, a truly racist country would not repute itself as such, since it won't be talking so much about it.


Indeed, and this is part of the reason I don't believe in nationalism. People who are too proud are more likely to ignore their own ignorance.
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Dhawal
Phoenix
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Joined: Dec 28, 2006
Age: 36
Posts: 657
Location: Ahmedabad, India

PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MissConstrue wrote:
No Dhawal..western countries are not like that.

IMO, racism is universal and there is a law against racism and other discriminations such sexism, homophobia, religion etc in most western countries.

Well casteism is illegal in India, but it is present in minor ways.
What I meant earlier was that racism is there in western countries in minor ways (like nurses attending to white pregnant women before the Indian ones in London). But casteism in India is even lesser, at least in cities. I do not think that racism is widespread in western countries. I know that it isn't. My NRI friend would vouch for that Smile

I come to Wrong Planet because I hate NTs, and here I am pissing off my aspie friends. I thought only NTs misunderstood me, but I guess I'm more misunderstood than other aspies.

MissConstrue wrote:
Roman wrote:
Dhawal wrote:
Well, the caste system in cities like Mumbai is less horrid than the racism in western countries (This I've heard from Indians living there Smile ).

An Indian would not be an objective source since he tolerates the racism of his own country better than the one of others, which is typical of anyone, Inidan or Westerner.

Besides, in Western countries they are so preoccupied of getting rid of racism that they keep talking of just how racist they are, which ultimately solidifies their image as such. Thus, ironically, a truly racist country would not repute itself as such, since it won't be talking so much about it.

Indeed, and this is part of the reason I don't believe in nationalism. People who are too proud are more likely to ignore their own ignorance.

Uhmmm ... I don't think I quite understand Roman's argument (maybe I have low IQ or weak english?), but for the last part you said - I don't believe in nationalism either. I relate more to aspies from other countries than NTs from India. And there aren't too many things in India that can make one feel proud. I just meant that it's not a rain forest or just bushes or something (as Mr. Swerve might think). We have internet and all the modern stuff that western countries have, that's all.


Last edited by Dhawal on Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:15 am; edited 2 times in total
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Dhawal
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Roman wrote:
I have heard about untoucheable beggers though. Are they basically living in very rural areas? Is it that they simply never heard that if they were to simply move to large cities their fate would be completely different? Or do they simply not have money to move, which forces them to stay in these rural areas and thus continue to be victims of caste system?

I have absolutely no idea. In cities beggers are beggers, nobody asks them their caste LOL. And I've never lived in a village, so I wouldn't know about that. Maybe you can ask some of your friends in Bangalore if they lived in village before?
Western media strikes again!
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Roman
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 3:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dhawal wrote:
I come to Wrong Planet because I hate NTs, and here I am pissing off my aspie friends. I thought only NTs misunderstood me, but I guess I'm more misunderstood than other aspies.


I am not mad at you at all. I just like to learn about things and discuss, that is what I am doing. I didn't mean to come across that I didn't like what you say. I actually like this discussion!

Dhawal wrote:
I do not think that racism is widespread in western countries. I know that it isn't. My NRI friend would vouch for that


Even if you did, I won't blame you for it. Westerners are the ones who came up with an idea that they are racist. Everyone else just listened to their self-accusations and took them seriously Smile

Dhawal wrote:
What I meant earlier was that racism is there in western countries in minor ways (like nurses attending to white pregnant women before the Indian ones in London).


That might be true, but there is also "reverse racism" that more than makes up for it. For example, one of my relatives, from Russia, came to America. He is obviously white. He held a job for a very long time and never got promoted. Then it occured to him to change his resume and put down that he is black (obviusly, a lie). He immediately started getting promotion after promotion. Why? Because if a white not getting the promotion, there is nothing wrong with it so why worry. But if a black doesn't get a promotion, then everyone will think they are racist, so thats why they had to harry up and promote the black.

I can give you even better example. At UC Berkeley at one point one of the people who applied for professorship was a black woman. Despite overwhelming number of other candidates, they immediately gave the position to her. Why? Because giving it to anyone else would look "racist". Nevertheless, she ended up refusing the position herself, and only then the doors were opened to other people.

So, even if black women are less likely to be attended by nurses, they are clearly a lot MORE likely to get job promotions. So, overall, it is not that racist.

The other thing you have to take into account is this: there might be nurses that feel so bad about blacks not being attended as quickly as whites, that they would do the opposite: ALWAYS go to blacks first. In the western mentality, this would be considered a very good thing to do, thus no one would complain. On the other hand, if a nurse attends white first, then yes this would generate a lot of complaints. Thus, you are a lot more likely to hear about the latter than the former, which would lead you to think that west is racist.

Ironically, if anything, it means west is very anti-racist. THAT is what makes racism "bad" enough to talk about and thus convince everyone that it is overwhelming (which it isn't).

Dhawal wrote:
But casteism in India is even lesser, at least in cities


I have actually talked to Indian about it. While he also told me that casteism is illegal in India, he said that in the villages it is still present. I even asked him that if its illegal, can't someone report what they do in villages to police? He answered that in villages it is SO DEEP ROOTED that police won't be able to do anything about it. So based on that, it is definitely much worse than racism in the west. Could it be that you simply never been to villages and thats why you don't know this?

One thing I can tell is that the west is a lot more "even": the cities and villages operate in similar ways, while in India there are much bigger contrasts. So may be that is one thing that we didn't take into account in this discussion.

MissConstrue wrote:
Roman wrote:
Dhawal wrote:
MissConstrue wrote:
That's good to know.

It's not just the western media however, I knew a guy from Mumbai who was always complaining about how horrid the caste systems over there were. I guess it depends on which region you're in....I'm assuming.

Well, the caste system in cities like Mumbai is less horrid than the racism in western countries (This I've heard from Indians living there Smile ).


An Indian would not be an objective source since he tolerates the racism of his own country better than the one of others, which is typical of anyone, Inidan or Westerner.

Besides, in Western countries they are so preoccupied of getting rid of racism that they keep talking of just how racist they are, which ultimately solidifies their image as such. Thus, ironically, a truly racist country would not repute itself as such, since it won't be talking so much about it.


Indeed, and this is part of the reason I don't believe in nationalism. People who are too proud are more likely to ignore their own ignorance.


I agree. Nationalism blinds for the very reason you just mentioned. But it also goes the other way too. Countries that are trying to be tolerant too much would see nationalism/racism when its not there, and also create an illusion, just in the opposite effect. Thus, West became famous "for racism" thanks to the false rumors it spreads about itself. I guess the same is true with any other issue involving politics, when you pick a side, whatever it happens to be, it blinds you.

I don't know about India, but in most Western countries, if you work hard, you can succeed. But people who don't want to work hard will blame it on anything but themselves. Thus, a white student who was outcompetted in his college entrance exam by his black fellow will say that he didn't make it because of affirmative action. A black student on the other hand will say he didn't make it because of racism. Both is just a blame game. I heard some cases where blacks were promised promotion if they will JUST come to the workplace on a regular basis. They couldn't do even that; and then when they lost their jobs, they still blamed it on racism.

Being a postdoctoral student in physics, I can tell you that on my level no one complains of any of these issues. I am sure that anyone, of either color, who works THAT hard would make it into college, whether there is affirmative action or not. Anyone else, again of either color, may be is not that important since they would drop out eventually anyway, and it is only the question of time. And yes, there are black students who are very smart and very hard working. I, personally, know one such student, and she was one of the smartest students in class if not the smartest. But again, SHE didn't complain about racism.

By the way, judging by the contrast of the difficulty level I encountered at college (very easy) and the one I encountered at graduate school (very hard), I believe that the whole system is designed to "weed out" the students that are not fit. Instead of just not letting them into college, they basically use the four years of college to allow them to drop out and/or not apply to graduate school and only in graduate school they start doing the real thing. This makes the system look "more tolerant" but the result is just that they wasted four years on something that could have taken few months.
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MissConstrue
~Meow Clawdius~
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Joined: Feb 05, 2008
Age: 32
Posts: 19686
Location: Missouri

PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dhawal wrote:
MissConstrue wrote:
No Dhawal..western countries are not like that.

IMO, racism is universal and there is a law against racism and other discriminations such sexism, homophobia, religion etc in most western countries.

Well casteism is illegal in India, but it is present in minor ways.
What I meant earlier was that racism is there in western countries in minor ways (like nurses attending to white pregnant women before the Indian ones in London). But casteism in India is even lesser, at least in cities. I do not think that racism is widespread in western countries. I know that it isn't. My NRI friend would vouch for that Smile

I come to Wrong Planet because I hate NTs, and here I am pissing off my aspie friends. I thought only NTs misunderstood me, but I guess I'm more misunderstood than other aspies.


Wow I had no idea they did things like that in london. Over here, it would be illegal unless there was a logical reason given. However yes you are right racism does exist but it does not just happen in the west.

Anyway my apologies, I didn't mean to sound harsh. Sometimes I read too much into things thus the name MissConstrue (misconstrue) Wink

Alright well didn't mean to interfere in this forum. BTW read your story Dhawal, it's divine! Keep working on it.
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Sabu
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
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Joined: Feb 20, 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 8:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Swerve wrote:
daer god, india Embarassed do they have the internet there yet?


For all of those still in doubt:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/biz/india-business/India-to-have-3rd-largest-number-of-Internet-users-by-2013/articleshow/4821630.cms
http://news.cnet.com/Indias-renaissance-The-100-computer/2009-1041_3-5752054.html

Also, see this:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/infotech/internet/India-fourth-largest-illegal-downloader/articleshow/5340765.cms

And some people think we are third world. I wonder where on earth are the first and the second world????????

tongue BTW yesterday I was riding an elephant and it got hit with a bullock-cart, if thats what you want to hear tongue
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MissConstrue
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 8:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Poor elephant... Sad
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Sabu
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

People People this is not a fighting ground on racism, cateism, religion etc.

I personally don't believe in such things.

As science says "Humans evolved from apes, apes from monkeys/chimpanzees, which may have evolved from sea animals, which had evolved from single celled organisms (bacteria), which were formed by simple amino acids". We all evolved from the same things. Its only the natural causes which affects our color.

A good article to read:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_skin_color

But hey I sometimes think how dark and fair colored humans evolved? I believe dark colored were evolved from dark colored monkeys and white from white monkeys, thats why we keep on arguing about color, caste blah blah blah because inherently we are all, after all, monkeys. Laughing

Note: Don't take seriously.
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Sabu
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 8:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MissConstrue wrote:
Poor elephant... Sad


You didn't ask what happened to me Crying or Very sad
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Sabu
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dhawal wrote:


Hi Sabu, totally agree with you on how people react when they hear about aspergers.

My younger sister and her husband live in Bangalore. I would love to meet you when I come over. If you can PM me your phone number it would be nice, I've got this 50 paise/min scheme so I can talk all over India Smile

BTW how did your brother's marriage go? I find weddings extremely stressful, I hope you were able to enjoy!!


Hey Dhaval, My brothers marriage went just fine. Yes marriages are stressful but its lot of fun in a way you get to meet all your friends and relatives after long time. Especially for people who live outside their native places. You see I am from New Delhi and working here in Bangalore.

BTW Happy Republic Day
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MissConstrue
~Meow Clawdius~
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 1:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sabu wrote:
MissConstrue wrote:
Poor elephant... Sad


You didn't ask what happened to me Crying or Very sad


Whatever it is you probably deserved it.

Remember an elephant never forgets.... Shame On You
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