Craig28
Phoenix
Joined: Jul 03, 2010
Posts: 3258
|
 Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 5:34 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| hyperlexian wrote: | | Craig28 wrote: | | I get all the information on here regarding women being targets or ones that are vulnerable, but no one has stated about the male. He needs to feel safe, he has vulnerabilities too when visting working women. I always make sure that I am going to be safe before I visit a prostitute. Also, men who visit them can leave the women feeling shell shocked, in a state of confusion and anxiety to how people view him when really, like myself, its not our faults why we have to visit them. |
it is your choice to visit them. if you feel unsafe or vulnerable, don't go. nobody forces you to visit them, unlike the many many women who are forced to do the job.
anyway, how often do you think that the men who visit prostitutes are ever hurt, compared to how often the sex workers get hurt? big difference there. |
There are even male prostitutes, it ain't all about bloody women ya know. |
|
| Back to top |
|
The_Face_of_Boo
A savage
Joined: Jun 17, 2010
Age: 31
Posts: 9316
Location: Beirut ,Lebanon
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 5:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
 |
|
| Back to top |
|
Craig28
Phoenix
Joined: Jul 03, 2010
Posts: 3258
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 5:41 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Reading these posts from women regarding the evils of prostitution and the whole sex for money thing, I can't help but think of their interference in the alcohol issues in America (Temperance movement). Both issues concerned a central character: MAN. The deeprooted crap I am seeing here on these boards against man was spawned before the First World War. And all these bloody females that are being born in this day and age are just gonna spout it, running off at the mouth about issues that only affect them very minutely. |
|
| Back to top |
|
hyperlexian
loves the man who typed too much and ran outta spa
Joined: Jul 22, 2010
Age: 41
Posts: 21969
Location: with bucephalus
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 5:47 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Craig28 wrote: | | hyperlexian wrote: | | Craig28 wrote: | | I get all the information on here regarding women being targets or ones that are vulnerable, but no one has stated about the male. He needs to feel safe, he has vulnerabilities too when visting working women. I always make sure that I am going to be safe before I visit a prostitute. Also, men who visit them can leave the women feeling shell shocked, in a state of confusion and anxiety to how people view him when really, like myself, its not our faults why we have to visit them. |
it is your choice to visit them. if you feel unsafe or vulnerable, don't go. nobody forces you to visit them, unlike the many many women who are forced to do the job.
anyway, how often do you think that the men who visit prostitutes are ever hurt, compared to how often the sex workers get hurt? big difference there. |
There are even male prostitutes, it ain't all about bloody women ya know. |
okay, then you can include them in our discussion. i don't mind adding their experiences too. it's just that 90% of prostitutes are women, and i do not know anything about the male prostitutes. it would be great if you offered some information about them or could express an opinion about them. i'm sure they don't have it easy either.
_________________
on a break, so if you need assistance please contact another moderator from this list:
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postp5043493.html#5043493 |
|
| Back to top |
|
Janissy
Phoenix
Joined: May 06, 2009
Age: 46
Posts: 4853
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 5:48 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| The_Face_of_Boo wrote: | |
I really shouldn't add another page to this thread by posting here again but I have to say that's really funny. It's just the right thing right here right now.  |
|
| Back to top |
|
hyperlexian
loves the man who typed too much and ran outta spa
Joined: Jul 22, 2010
Age: 41
Posts: 21969
Location: with bucephalus
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 5:49 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Craig28 wrote: | | Reading these posts from women regarding the evils of prostitution and the whole sex for money thing, I can't help but think of their interference in the alcohol issues in America (Temperance movement). Both issues concerned a central character: MAN. The deeprooted crap I am seeing here on these boards against man was spawned before the First World War. And all these bloody females that are being born in this day and age are just gonna spout it, running off at the mouth about issues that only affect them very minutely. |
i guess they had their reasons:
"Because of the correlation between drinking and domestic violence—many drunken husbands abused family members—the temperance movement existed alongside various women's rights and other movements, including the Progressive movement, and often the same activists were involved in all of the above. Many notable voices of the time, ranging from Lucy Webb Hayes to Susan B. Anthony, were active in the movement. In Canada, Nellie McClung was a longstanding advocate of temperance. As with most social movements, there was a gamut of activists running from violent (Carrie Nation) to mild (Neal S. Dow)."
_________________
on a break, so if you need assistance please contact another moderator from this list:
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postp5043493.html#5043493 |
|
| Back to top |
|
The_Face_of_Boo
A savage
Joined: Jun 17, 2010
Age: 31
Posts: 9316
Location: Beirut ,Lebanon
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 5:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Poor Tweety.... |
|
| Back to top |
|
Craig28
Phoenix
Joined: Jul 03, 2010
Posts: 3258
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 5:53 pm Post subject: |
|
|
So, I guess, that if I stop seeing prostitutes, women will call me a "Good Man" and that I am a shining example of what they want a man to be: feminist compliant.
Like the Americans said, "The only good Indians are the dead ones", and in this case, "The only good men are the ones that will bow down to womanhood".
All you are doing is replacing the ill behaviour of man with the ill behaviour of women. I've seen the sorts, staggering out of bars blind drunk at 2am at the weekends, getting their knickers down and peeing in the streets. |
|
| Back to top |
|
greenblue
¸.·´´¯`··.¸.·´
Joined: Mar 26, 2007
Posts: 9915
Location: Home
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 6:56 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| MotherKnowsBest wrote: | | I just want to float a thought here, something for those who think about using prostitutes to consider. Are you aware of the fact that seeing a prostitute is the final death knell for any hope you have of ever having a normal relationship? |
In some cases perhaps, regarding the preference for prostitutes and not caring about relationships anymore, especially from guys who never had one, which is like becoming a replacement for the real one, however, I don't see that to be always the case.
| Quote: | | That no 'nice' girl will go any where near someone who has been with a prostitute, so any relationship would have to be built on deception and would therefore be doomed to fail? |
well, of course, a guy would have to hide that aspect of his life if it isn't convenient to expose that, I mean I could very well say that I had a sexual relationship before, and hide the small detail that she happened to be a prostitute, or I could say I am a virgin (which I really don't know if I can be considered or not), is it deception? Yes. Would it be smart and convenient to tell the truth knowing or projecting that she would reject me because of that? No.
In any case, relationships are built on some level of deception anyway, from what I gather, people, generally, impress or try to impress their potential partner by showing themselves to be better than what they really are, so there isn't much of honesty there, and yeah, pretty much they start to really know each other well, after getting married, and that seems extremely common. And I doubt such deception is that harmful, considering health is good, it seems it depends on other circumstances.
And believe some women wouldn't mind a man having been with a prostitute before, depending on the reason.
_________________
“Everything is perfect in the universe - even your desire to improve it.” |
|
| Back to top |
|
HopeGrows
Nobody's Fool
Joined: Nov 06, 2009
Posts: 1565
Location: In exactly the right place at exactly the right time.
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 7:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| hyperlexian wrote: |
i actually consider your brand of feminism quite dangerous, because it buys into what the traditional patriarchy is promoting for women, allows men to have their freedom one more way for women to be used and discarded by men. allowing the government to outlaw something that is so overwhelmingly detrimental to both sex workers and general society is just responsible, not dangerous. |
Yes, but you're wrong. There is NOTHING patriarchal about allowing a woman the right to decide who has access to her body, and under what terms. Do you understand what patriarchy is?
| hyperlexian wrote: | your argument about freedom for women to control their own bodies does not wash.
the government already has a great deal of control over people's own desire to do what they want to with their bodies. i.e. you can't buy heroin at the supermarket because the government understands it is dangerous. |
As I've already stated, I don't think the government is now winning - or will it EVER win - the "War on Drugs" - drugs should be legalized. But you've treated those statements like every othher statement that doesn't support your perspective: you ignore it.
| hyperlexian wrote: | | anyway, even in a legalized system women who are selling sex for money have very little control over the act itself, or their treatment by men, or the conditions under which they work. the industry is designed around catering to men, not to the women who must do the job. |
WHY DO I HAVE TO SAY THIS AGAIN? The current system does not function adequately - it needs a COMPREHENSIVE overhaul. Please stop repeating the same flawed, pointless conclusions.
| hyperlexian wrote: | | you fully know that it is damaging to the majority of women, though you inexplicably do not think it should be a deciding factor on whether or not prostitution should be legal. |
See comment above.
| hyperlexian wrote: | | i don't believe your perspective has anything to do with women at all, at the core. i think it caters to the desires and dominance of men. i consider it to be an unenlightened perspective. |
Right back to you, @hyperlexian.
| hyperlexian wrote: | | funny that you keep bringing up my own sexuality, but yours is not under question. you do not have any sort of moral high ground, so pointing out that i engage in something that you do not like is hardly appropriate. were my actions detrimental to me or to my partners? no. but is prostitution detrimental to the women involved? yes. |
I haven't brought up anything about you that you haven't freely volunteered in the forum. And I've brought the issue up to illustrate the hypocrisy in your own attitudes. If you think that constitutes taking the moral high ground - which you clearly object to - then I hope you're ready to enjoy a nice big dose of your own medicine. How's that working for ya?
| hyperlexian wrote: | | how many women have you asked about whether they would sleep with a man who frequented prostitutes? i doubt you have asked any. have you researched it at all? probably not. but even just speaking logically... if women didn't mind, then men wouldn't hide it, would they? nice try, though. |
Now you want to defend statements about what EVERY WOMAN will find acceptable or not in a mate? Your grandiosity knows no bounds.
_________________
What you feel is what you are and what you are is beautiful...
|
|
| Back to top |
|
hyperlexian
loves the man who typed too much and ran outta spa
Joined: Jul 22, 2010
Age: 41
Posts: 21969
Location: with bucephalus
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 8:30 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| HopeGrows wrote: | | Yes, but you're wrong. There is NOTHING patriarchal about allowing a woman the right to decide who has access to her body, and under what terms. Do you understand what patriarchy is? |
do you understand what patriarchal means? i am not wrong, i just disagree with you.
although you ignore all of the quotes i present, i care just enough to quote other people who actually agree that prostitution is a form of patriarchal control:
| Quote: | | Prostitution pre–exists as a system and an institution that patriarchy has a stake in and will maintain, with or without women’s consent. |
| Quote: | Prostitution happens here, there and everywhere. It plays with the universal factor. It has the support of most men, even if on other issues they are all-out enemies. It lends credibility to patriarchy by presenting itself as a phenomenon that is so long-lasting over time that it is taken as natural. That is, it is seen as part of the very essence of society and as being impossible to change. This is what we mean by a pillar, and prostitution is the sturdiest of patriarchy’s pillars.
However, the same sophistries that serve to justify prostitution demonstrate that it is not natural but historical; otherwise no reasoning would be necessary, just as there is no need to justify eating, drinking and sleeping, for example. It has been said on occasions that prostitutes exist to safeguard the honesty of decent women – as if a “decent” woman does not run the risk of falling into prostitution under certain circumstances. On other occasions prostitution has been described as a necessary evil. And, especially, as the world’s oldest profession. Perhaps the oldest of the patriarchal world. |
| Quote: | | The underlying causes of violence against women lie in patriarchy therefore, aggravated by poverty- in men’s assumptions of dominance over women and ownership of their bodies as sanctioned by social institutions, the denial of women’s equality with men in all areas of life. It is about definitions of masculinity where men are given unbridled access and unquestioned ownership to women’s bodies. It is about myths of men’s uncontrollable urge and right to buy or rape women whenever they feel the urge. So even when there is no cash involved as in prostitution, there is rape. Particular groups of women are also targeted because of their race/ethnicity, class, culture, sexual orientation, or if they are coming from marginalized communities. |
i don't just pull phrases and opinions out of my arse. i conduct research and base my opinions on published information. the same cannot be said for your arguments.
| HopeGrows wrote: | | As I've already stated, I don't think the government is now winning - or will it EVER win - the "War on Drugs" - drugs should be legalized. But you've treated those statements like every othher statement that doesn't support your perspective: you ignore it. |
i don't agree with the legalization of hard drugs, and apparently most of the world agrees, because they are illegal almost everywhere. i am now thinking that your argument has nothing to do with feminism at all, and everything to do with libertarianism. please don't pretend you have women's best interests in mind, because you clearly are speaking from a whole different perspective.
p.s. i ignore nonsense.
| HopeGrows wrote: | | WHY DO I HAVE TO SAY THIS AGAIN? The current system does not function adequately - it needs a COMPREHENSIVE overhaul. Please stop repeating the same flawed, pointless conclusions. |
you keep also drawing flawed, pointless conclusions. do you understand that it is a difference of opinion? well, sort of... at least my opinion has some facts to back it up. you introduced one, single, flawed study to support your side... AND I CAN YELL TOO!
| HopeGrows wrote: | | I haven't brought up anything about you that you haven't freely volunteered in the forum. And I've brought the issue up to illustrate the hypocrisy in your own attitudes. If you think that constitutes taking the moral high ground - which you clearly object to - then I hope you're ready to enjoy a nice big dose of your own medicine. How's that working for ya? |
nastyyyyyy. you don't actually have any moral high ground, so it's sort of silly for you to say that. i am not hypocritical at all... you think what i did was wrong, but not what men do with prostitutes? that takes quite a hypocritical leap.
i don't compare those things side by side, because they are not the same act. sex outside of a relationship is not the same as prostitution, so it is not hypocritical to find one acceptable and not the other. many reasonable people agree with that.
sorry, but your logic fails. and you took the low road...
| HopeGrows wrote: | | Now you want to defend statements about what EVERY WOMAN will find acceptable or not in a mate? Your grandiosity knows no bounds. |
i didn't say EVERY WOMAN, now did i? are you actually reading what i write, or are you just drawing random conclusions because you have already pigeonholed me? how about taking the time to go back and actually read what i wrote instead of putting words in my mouth? here's a refresher for you, but i'm sure you won't bother to actually read it...
| hyperlexian wrote: | | but that is not what she is saying. she is saying that a man who visits prostitutes is a deal-breaker for someone of her particular morality (actually the majority of women i have spoken to have agreed with that, including ex-prostitutes). so she was cautioning you. she was trying to help you understand from her point of view. |
_________________
on a break, so if you need assistance please contact another moderator from this list:
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postp5043493.html#5043493 |
|
| Back to top |
|
HopeGrows
Nobody's Fool
Joined: Nov 06, 2009
Posts: 1565
Location: In exactly the right place at exactly the right time.
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 9:54 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Actually, @hyperlexian, you are a hypocrite - and you're wrong. You have ignored every bit of evidence that every poster has provided that doesn't support your perspective. (And no, you clearly don't understand what the term patriarchy refers to, as you want to codify your moral view in an effort to assert your authority over women, and the decisions they make about their own bodies - because you know better than they do. ) 
You're going to lecture me about reading what you write? Let me see now, you were so interested in objective information that refutes your perspective that you....anyone, anyone? That you chose to ignore it when I posted it. (Or maybe you have some spinny, b.s. explanation for failing to recognize information I posted when posted by another member?) You've ignored the posts of people who stated real facts about the state of prostitution in Canada and New Zealand - again, because they don't support your narrow view of the subject. Don't blame me @hyperlexian - you pigeonholed yourself - by choosing to stay ignorant of oh, I don't know, the facts that you're so in love with.
And you may ignore nonsense - but clearly you have no such prohibition on posting it. Too bad. You're doing so much more harm than good here. Do I understand a difference of opinion? Yes - do you understand that your opinion is just that? Its not gospel, its not an edict, and it sure as hell isn't a fact. You have been shoving your opinion down everyone's throat and acting as though your word is the last word. Sorry, its not. And yes, you've judged, and you've condescended, and you've been sarcastic, and you've gotten personal, and you've acted as though your opinion is untouchable because you were the only one considering the best interests of the women involved. I hope that does taste bitter to you - it should. How dare you believe you're the only one who can offer a solution to any problem? Really, who died and left you in charge of what's best for anyone? And you claim I took the low road?
_________________
What you feel is what you are and what you are is beautiful...
|
|
| Back to top |
|
greenblue
¸.·´´¯`··.¸.·´
Joined: Mar 26, 2007
Posts: 9915
Location: Home
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 9:59 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| hyperlexian wrote: | i think quite often that a man's misogyny predates the relationship problems (i had a great deal of difficulty with misogynistic males in junior high/middle school. some grew out of that attitude, and some did not), and i think that eventually the two problems exacerbate and feed off each other.
i don't think anything is unfixable though... but i think that maybe it requires that first step of wanting to change. i don't mean massive sweeping alterations of everything that makes up a person. i mean changes in attitude, approach, and respectfulness. |
If I understand correctly, I believe that the problem with your position here seems that it leads towards one unique conclusion, misoginy (misoginy, according to your ideology), and this is not the only problem or cause, but other issues as well, social pressure, would be one, and longing for companionship, and I can say that few men who see a prostitute, have a liberal mentality regarding sexuality, such as some women have a more liberal mentality about sexuality, thus not having much of a moral issue with it, while others may find that morally objectionable or for any other reason, and may prefer celibacy than seeing a prostitute. The issue is that I tend to find this thinking, a black and white approach, therefore I find it questionable. While this is true in many cases, it doesn't mean all men have that attitude.
-----------------------
The problem with this thread is that we are crossing between different ideologies and perspectives about an issue, I get your position and you defend it, but others disagree, even other feminists disagree with your position, as well as other people agree with your position, even comming from different angles. So much that this thread is not really going anywhere, and it won't do anything, obviously won't change anybody's minds, especially if they are passionate about their views. Heck! I think I'm partly regreting posting here in the first place, because it leads to nowhere, on the other hand, another part of me is curious.
_________________
“Everything is perfect in the universe - even your desire to improve it.” |
|
| Back to top |
|
greenblue
¸.·´´¯`··.¸.·´
Joined: Mar 26, 2007
Posts: 9915
Location: Home
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 10:14 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Janissy wrote: | | The_Face_of_Boo wrote: | |
I really shouldn't add another page to this thread by posting here again but I have to say that's really funny. It's just the right thing right here right now. |
Screw Tweety!
_________________
“Everything is perfect in the universe - even your desire to improve it.” |
|
| Back to top |
|
hyperlexian
loves the man who typed too much and ran outta spa
Joined: Jul 22, 2010
Age: 41
Posts: 21969
Location: with bucephalus
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 10:38 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| HopeGrows wrote: | | Actually, @hyperlexian, you are a hypocrite - and you're wrong. You have ignored every bit of evidence that every poster has provided that doesn't support your perspective. (And no, you clearly don't understand what the term patriarchy refers to, as you want to codify your moral view in an effort to assert your authority over women, and the decisions they make about their own bodies - because you know better than they do. ) :lmao |
uh, no. i'm not a hypocrite. you calling me one doesn't make it true. there is absolutely nothing hypocritical about my viewpoint. it just doesn't fit within your morality. but i would say that you have been hypocritical. we can keep arguing this way if you like, but i am not sure what your point is. you have no more right to codify your point of view than i do, last i checked...
i do understand what patriarchy means, but i don't think you truly understand what it entails. would you like some more definitions?
| HopeGrows wrote: | | You're going to lecture me about reading what you write? Let me see now, you were so interested in objective information that refutes your perspective that you....anyone, anyone? That you chose to ignore it when I posted it. (Or maybe you have some spinny, b.s. explanation for failing to recognize information I posted when posted by another member?) You've ignored the posts of people who stated real facts about the state of prostitution in Canada and New Zealand - again, because they don't support your narrow view of the subject. Don't blame me @hyperlexian - you pigeonholed yourself - by choosing to stay ignorant of oh, I don't know, the facts that you're so in love with. |
i didn't ignore that study - i responded to your post at the time. maybe you didn't read my reply? which would be exactly what i am accusing you of. i also responded when another member posted it, but all the information i had to go on was the quote he used. i couldn't go to the link on my phone.
then, you went batshit.
you accused me of saying things i did not say... so that would imply that you did not read what i wrote.
you also did not address the research i presented, perhaps because you could not refute it. so now you turn to personal insults. you provided 1 single piece of evidence, which was criticized for its lack of neutrality. at any time, you could have presented more, but instead you attacked me. basen on what you provided, there's not much evidence on your side. well, it is sort of inevitable, if you cannot support your side, that you would attack me on a lower, meaner level. a very immature debate technique. are you going to call me a stupid poopypants next?
i am not ignorant, and i don't really get why you want to make it so personal. have you ever debated before, and if so, do you comprehend that a difference of opinion does not mean that others are wrong? has anyone ever disagreed with you, or are people so accustomed to your bullying that they dare not stand up to you?
| HopeGrows wrote: | | And you may ignore nonsense - but clearly you have no such prohibition on posting it. Too bad. You're doing so much more harm than good here. Do I understand a difference of opinion? Yes - do you understand that your opinion is just that? Its not gospel, its not an edict, and it sure as hell isn't a fact. You have been shoving your opinion down everyone's throat and acting as though your word is the last word. Sorry, its not. And yes, you've judged, and you've condescended, and you've been sarcastic, and you've gotten personal, and you've acted as though your opinion is untouchable because you were the only one considering the best interests of the women involved. I hope that does taste bitter to you - it should. How dare you believe you're the only one who can offer a solution to any problem? Really, who died and left you in charge of what's best for anyone? And you claim I took the low road? |
are you seriously accusing me of doing these things to you, those same things you have been doing to me? wow.  that is seriously humorous. my opinion is an opinion, and i happen to also have facts to back it up. those are two separate items. opinion... and facts. you could have have chosen to take the same approach, and you did not. this is how a good debate is performed. maybe you can improve with practice.
please note that i've consented some possibilities for the other side, but you have not done the same. which would be an example of you saying that your own side is untouchable.
yes, i have judged people, and so have you. yes, i have condescended people, and so have you.
i don't understand why YOU should have the god-given right to decide what is best for society or for women either. really, nobody appointed you to that job.
you made this personal with me, and all i have is throw back the crap you chucked at me. i will continue to return the volley as long as you keep doing that. and yes, you took the low road by attacking me personally. that was uncalled for and bad debate form.
funny, but i have no bitterness at all. you really don't know me.
and no, you are NOT a worthy adversary.
_________________
on a break, so if you need assistance please contact another moderator from this list:
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postp5043493.html#5043493 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
